Kensai AA or Barb AA?

[andbr22]

Also I think that bowbarians are based on old PrE Crit rage.

[Moltier]

Alrighty. What kind of split should I go with? When should I take ranger and fighter?

If you dont wanna be elf or ugly elf, pure 20 ranger.
There are 3 other good options:
18fighter/1wizzy/1 ranger - this one is the best full time ranged dps, but no melee option.
12fighter/6ranger/2monk - ~1-3% weaker ranged dps then the 18/1/1 version, but very good melee, evasion and high saves.
18barb/1wizzy/1ranger - best single target ranged dps, good melee. (frenzy vicious doesnt work on ranged, but the extra crit works)

Im sure there are other options as well, but these seems to be the best. I currently use the 2nd multiclass version. Though i would never make the barb version. Improved precise shot is fun! And deadly!

Edit: earth stance Zen AA monk may be good as well.

[The_Mud_Man]

Doesn't elf arcane archer require 8 levels of ranger? Or just level 8?

[Grifarr]

The elf AA PrE is not class specific and can be taken by any elf that has reached level 8 and has met the following requirements

-24 AP spent
-Requires One of: Bard Energy of Music I, Elven Arcanum I, Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I, Wizard Energy of the Scholar I, Mental Toughness, Past Life: Arcane Prodigy
-Requires All of: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus: Ranged, +6 Base Attack Bonus

Personally I have a pure ranger AA. I prefer to melee when ranged is not optimal damage or utility wise but I find him lacking in the melee department. I also have a Mobster build (Tempest1 / Kensei 2) that I am very happy with. I am waiting on the polish pass they are supposed to be doing to ranged combat to TR the AA to a ranger Kensei to bolster his dps. 6 Ranger gives you your bow feats up to Manyshot plus Rams Might for more damage and a second spell, 12 fighter for Kensei 2 and feats you need for bow and melee prowess and 2 rogue for evasion and some sneak attack damage situationally. Pros of the build - Fighter haste boost for better ranged and melee dps (though I need to figure something to drop to take it to 4), Kensei enhancements for better bow damage and higher HP than pure ranger for better survivability. The biggest drawback is waiting to 20 for slayer arrows.

This is an unpolished version of the build I have been tweeking while I wait to see what changes Turbine has in store

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Neutral Good Elf Male
(12 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 6 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 344
Spell Points: 190 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 18
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             17                    28
Dexterity            17                    22
Constitution         13                    16
Intelligence         10                    11
Wisdom               11                    12
Charisma              8                     9

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage I


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I


Level 4 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 5 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack I


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 7 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost II


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Point Blank Shot
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Precise Shot
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Specialization: Ranged Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II


Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Longbow Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Longbow Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 17 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Ranged Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows
Enhancement: Kensei Longbow Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows

[unbongwah]

Also, wanting to do drow or maybe horc, most likely drow.

Then you have to be a pure-ish ranger; only elves & HEs get AA as a racial PrE.

Also I think that bowbarians are based on old PrE Crit rage.

It was an enh, not a PrE ability, IIRC; might even have predated Frenzied Berserker, it was before my time. Fortunately, I believe the crit multiplier boost from FB II & III does apply to ranged dmg; unfortunately, a mostly-barb AA build winds up really tight on feats, between the pre-reqs for AA & FB and not getting any bonus feats from barb. Best I could come up with is rgr 6 / barb 12 / ftr 2 and it still doesn't have everything I want:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Chaotic Neutral Elf Female
(2 Fighter \ 12 Barbarian \ 6 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 312
Spell Points: 175 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 14
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    26
Dexterity            17                    20
Constitution         14                    18
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead (swap for Evil Outsider later)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 2 (Ranger)


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 4 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 7 (Barbarian)


Level 8 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 10 (Barbarian)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precise Shot


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Precise Shot


Level 13 (Barbarian)


Level 14 (Barbarian)


Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 16 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Barbarian)


Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 19 (Barbarian)


Level 20 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Burst Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Valenar Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Valenar Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Valenar Elf Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack I
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage I
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I

[Luckness]

12 Fighter / 6 Ranger / 2 Monk sounds to me like the most fun you can have with two swords in hand and a bow on your back. Pure ranger has the capstone, but I'd rather have oodles of feats to make it all work.

Ranger: Free TWF, Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, Manyshot.
Fighter: 7 free feats.
Monk: 2 free feats.

Taking all the melee and ranged feats you really want on an archer build... yummy.

[karl_k0ch]

12 Fighter / 6 Ranger / 2 Monk sounds to me like the most fun you can have with two swords in hand and a bow on your back. Pure ranger has the capstone, but I'd rather have oodles of feats to make it all work.

Ranger: Free TWF, Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, Manyshot.
Fighter: 7 free feats.
Monk: 2 free feats.

Taking all the melee and ranged feats you really want on an archer build... yummy.

It is a pretty viable build for Half-Elves:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=289591

[Arlathen]

I play the Zen Elf 12 Monk/6 Ranger/2 Fighter version - Ninja Spy 2/AA 5, in Earth Stance 3.

As a personal opinion, it simply rocks and is great fun to play.

One interesting point is that you actually melee most of the time, Unarmed TWF with Touch of Death, then pull out the Manyshot for added DPS when off timer.

One other thing the build offers you in addition is a decent Stunning Fist of DC40+ with appropiate Wisdom & Handwraps.

Then you have your usual Monk toys - 2D6 base fist damage, Decent AC, Improved Evasion, High Saves, Fast Movement, Shadow Fade, Immunity to Poison & Disease....

[krackythehoodedone]

With the exception Of Glenalth of course.

I'll try answer the OP's questions.

Race really needs to be Elf or maybe Half Elf. Giving you racial bonusses or dilletante

If your going Kensai i would go look at HelvesAngel which is probably the best all round AA build in game ATM but needs a lot of work ie TR's, equipment etc to get it at optimum.

Their is still a Bowbarian build out their. The Old Crit Rage Bowbarian is gone because the enhancements are defunct although a few still exist. They will be 14 barb/6 rgr and will outdo anything with a bow due to critting on a 13, having all the archery feats and massive str

The Bowbarian build is now 18 barb FB111/1 rgr/1 anything with blue bar.

This newer style Bowbarian will give you the biggest damage with a Bow possible but only against a single opponent. This is the build that has screenshots up of 1000 damage with a single arrow(checkout posts by Soulstabber). It is however feat starved and cannot afford to have Imp Precise shot or even Precise shot for that matter.

If this is your first go at an AA, 20 ranger still has a lot to give

[The_Mud_Man]

If you dont wanna be elf or ugly elf, pure 20 ranger.
12fighter/6ranger/2monk - ~1-3% weaker ranged dps then the 18/1/1 version, but very good melee, evasion and high saves.

This split sounds interesting but so does the ninja spy/AA split.

Hrm.....now to decide which to roll. Won't be a TR and I have some bows put away and can farm some gear. Since I am still relatively new to Cannith, I was thinking of dex based for more to-hit. I know it will be reduced damage from a str AA, but I think I'd rather have the better to-hit. I've always been of the school hitting harder doesn't matter much if you can't hit the target.

[The_Mud_Man]

Can anyone direct me to an example of the ninja spy/AA and the kensei build?

[Mercureal]

A link to the Kensai build is in post #27, assuming you mean the 12/6/2 Fighter/Ranger/Monk version. There's a Monk/AA build here, http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=325770, but I can't speak to its effectiveness.

Edited to add: the post 27 link is the Helves Angel, which has been used quite a bit and is a tested build.

[krackythehoodedone]

look for HelvesAngel. That is the kensai build i would look into

[smyter]

I made myself a 17fighter/2bard/1ranger. This allows for kensai3, free bow str, and bard song buff. If I were to do again, I would drop the ranger level and take 3 levels of bard for a longer song, inspired attack 1, and another spell. I would lose a feat. I still need to research it a little more to verify that my BAB would not dip below the ROF stair-step threshhold. (Higher BAB = faster arrows).

[Therigar]

A lot of advice but very few posts answering the initial question.

Kensai gives you an abundance of feats which lets you suppliment AA with excellent melee capability. Because the vast majority of player prefer melee to ranged combat it is much easier to fit into the existing prejudices and avoid the problems that come with being a one-dimensional character. Depending on the build you can easily be an AA with weapon finesse and the full TWF line. You can just as easily be an AA with STR focus and the full TWF line. The 7 standard feats along with the 10 fighter class feats give lots of flexibility.

Barbarian gives you more damage from higher STR bonuses making the ranged combat more effective. The lack of feats means you have no, or almost no, feats to use on improving melee capability. This leaves you limited to a mostly one-dimensional character that shoots but does little else. Barbarians that become AA will almost always rely on THF without any bonus feats if forced into melee. The reduced effectiveness of glancing blows should be considered a major drawback.

Both builds presume splashing some class for spell points. Since PrEs cap at L18 it is not unreasonable to expect a L1 ranger splash to pick up bow strength to go along with whatever spell point class is selected. It is also not unreasonable to expect as much as a L6 ranger splash in order to pick up TWF and ITWF along with additional ranged feats.

These splash choices are all geared towards overcoming the negatives that I mention or towards increasing the positives. A L6 ranger splash on a barbarian gives a reasonable alternative to melee, for example. On a fighter it replaces 3 fighter feats with at least 4 automatic class feats.

[Therigar]

I made myself a 17fighter/2bard/1ranger. This allows for kensai3, free bow str, and bard song buff.

No it doesn't. Kensai III requires fighter L18.

[stille_nacht]

If you dont wanna be elf or ugly elf, pure 20 ranger.
There are 3 other good options:
18fighter/1wizzy/1 ranger - this one is the best full time ranged dps, but no melee option.
12fighter/6ranger/2monk - ~1-3% weaker ranged dps then the 18/1/1 version, but very good melee, evasion and high saves..

18/1/1 has twf, and usually takes kensai III for khopeshes.
12/6/2 has twf, but is slightly weaker because only has kensai II, however it does gain evasion and some ranger spells

[smyter]

No it doesn't. Kensai III requires fighter L18.

you are right. I am currently 19 16/1/1.. I thought I was going to be able to take another bard level, but I guess I haven't played him in a while, and it was too early in the morning to post intelligently.

[The_Mud_Man]

Thanks for the input and discussion. I believe I will go with the helves angel build. If I don't like it, I can always LR or GR.

[DarkShaolin]

I feel this is the best one personally....

Lawful Good
Half-Elf... with Bard dilly feat. (To make easier for leveling I would pick ranger dilly til you get bow strength feat then switch it to bard dilly.)
(As a side note the bard dilly feat is the only way to mix Bard lvls with Monk and/or Paladin lvls since paladin requires lawful good, monk requires lawful ,and bard needs chaotic alignments.)
lvl 12 Fighter (kensai 2)
Lvl 6 Paladin (paladin hunter of the dead 1)
lvl 2 Monk


I picked the bard dilly feat for the fascinate 3 times per rest...based of Charisma stat.

lvl 4+ paladin portion is to qualify for the being a caster portion of Elven Arcane Archer with having access to mental toughness feat, also paladin enhancement follower of the Silver Flame (longbows get a +1 to hit), the heal spells and defensive based spells don't hurt early on either, nor does Turn Undead ability to go along with bard dilly's fascinate.

Monk simply for the free feat slots, animal path, and for the extra AC bonus from wisdom bonus.

If you add this up it like a total of 15 feats....plenty of room to spare.

I think this would be alot of fun to play. My advice would be start as a paladin for lvls 1 & 2, monk for lvls 3 &4, finish out paladin for lvls 5 through 8,...then finish with the 12 lvls in fighter. I was planning on using longbows as primary weapon, and a quarterstaff as melee weapon if they get in close.