GLOB Shards

[Rawel_San]

No.

The stance Kernal42 has taken has merit; however his arguments do not.

Either he is providing any conceivable agument hoping that one will stick, or he is simply right(ish) for the wrong reasons. Neither case is admirable or...

See? Two can play that game.

But hey, heaven forbid someone openly agree with me. You want crafting to be cost prohibitive that badly? Please feel free to mail me all your LDS, each and every one. Oh, and your plat. Oh, and only run one toon through Shroud - all the others are on time out, sorry. Complete every time.

Now, use that one toon's LDSes to craft all your other toons GLOB shards. But, those toons also need to have 5 LDSes saved up, so you can make a Min II accesory as soon as you have the Shard.

Oh, and I'll also take your Demon's Bloods, and with no plat, and no mats, I'll let *you* make the judgment call to start from scratch on making a HBCoGCOB, or making a Min II against eLailat.

The haves, maintaining a nice, wide gap between them and the have nots... I already have my shards. None of this argument is for my sake, unless I make 5 more level 20s.

But I see a Premium/VIP new to level 20 that isn't going to make it into raids because his gear sucks, who is broke because he's put so much attention into crafting, can't make boots for ToD, can't make himself a single tier III GS, more less having 2x Lit II and a Min II HP item, who is then being told by a crafting device that he has to spend one of the two LDS he's gotten in 20 something Shroud completions to make a single shard that doesn't even complete what would be a good boss beater.

Because that's the environment that apparently we want. We want to make sure that it's months of time before we let people come and play with the rest of us.

Why would he do that? Is he crazy? You can make great devil/demon beaters at lvl 45 or so of crafting with
not shroud ingredient investment at all. +3Holy silver of evil outsider bane is within reach of even a freshly
capped char (probbly before cap even) and is way way way better then the DR breakers I had when I started
running shroud. I didn't even get into a ToD group before I had dual Min II's but that might be just because I
was gimp since normal is regularly run by people with basic DR breakers.

Those +5 HB of GLOB aren't supposed to be for a freshly capped toon. In the same way that Min II's aren't
or an eSoS isn't. They are for the people that want the best possible dps short of very very very rare epic
raid loot (and I'm still not convinced whether eChaosblades outdps the crafted stuff).

[kernal42]

But hey, heaven forbid someone openly agree with me. You want crafting to be cost prohibitive that badly? Please feel free to mail me all your LDS, each and every one. Oh, and your plat. Oh, and only run one toon through Shroud - all the others are on time out, sorry. Complete every time.

Now, use that one toon's LDSes to craft all your other toons GLOB shards. But, those toons also need to have 5 LDSes saved up, so you can make a Min II accesory as soon as you have the Shard.

Oh, and I'll also take your Demon's Bloods, and with no plat, and no mats, I'll let *you* make the judgment call to start from scratch on making a HBCoGCOB, or making a Min II against eLailat.

The haves, maintaining a nice, wide gap between them and the have nots... I already have my shards. None of this argument is for my sake, unless I make 5 more level 20s.

But I see a Premium/VIP new to level 20 that isn't going to make it into raids because his gear sucks, who is broke because he's put so much attention into crafting, can't make boots for ToD, can't make himself a single tier III GS, more less having 2x Lit II and a Min II HP item, who is then being told by a crafting device that he has to spend one of the two LDS he's gotten in 20 something Shroud completions to make a single shard that doesn't even complete what would be a good boss beater.

Because that's the environment that apparently we want. We want to make sure that it's months of time before we let people come and play with the rest of us.

It's admirable to try and argue on behalf of newer players, but your examples are fundamentally irrelevant. It is not necessary to make a HBSGLOB [do note that this is the GLOB thread, not the GCOB thread...] to make a weapon more effective than a MinII. You just need a HSCOB. Against eLailat (since you've brought it up), the HCCOB is still probably better for the newer player because of the increased attack bonus.

Both of these weapons require level ~35 in crafting, which can be fairly easily achieved within a few weeks of crafting; not months like you suggest.

-Kernal

[TheDearLeader]

You can make great devil/demon beaters at lvl 45 or so of crafting with not shroud ingredient investment at all. +3Holy silver of evil outsider bane

Funny. I tried PCing these on Sarlona to find interest, and people were willing to pay at most 100k plat for them. So, apparently the player base doesn't find these to be as "Great" of Devil/Demon beaters as you do.

It's admirable to try and argue on behalf of newer players, but your examples are fundamentally irrelevant. It is not necessary to make a HBSGLOB [do note that this is the GLOB thread, not the GCOB thread...] to make a weapon more effective than a MinII. You just need a HSCOB. Against eLailat (since you've brought it up), the HCCOB is still probably better for the newer player because of the increased attack bonus.

Both of these weapons require level ~35 in crafting, which can be fairly easily achieved within a few weeks of crafting; not months like you suggest.

-Kernal

See the above.

[Khurse]

Funny. I tried PCing these on Sarlona to find interest, and people were willing to pay at most 100k plat for them. So, apparently the player base doesn't find these to be as "Great" of Devil/Demon beaters as you do.

....so your entire argument against the weapon people on here are saying is relatively easy to make and effective is that people don't want to buy them?

Maybe they didn't want to buy them because they're relatively easy to make?

[TheDearLeader]

....so your entire argument against the weapon people on here are saying is relatively easy to make and effective is that people don't want to buy them?

Maybe they didn't want to buy them because they're relatively easy to make?

Even people without crafting levels didn't particularly want them.

Heck, the blank weapons (Silver Khopesh, Cold Iron Falchion, etc) are selling for more than that right now.

People don't want to craft/buy mediocre. People don't want True Chaos of Construct Bane for portals. If they are going to buy a specialty weapon, they want the biggest gun they can have for the job.

And if you have the crafting levels to make such, have found/bought a weapon of the appropriate metal type, and have crunched enough to get Shards of Potential +13 or +14, that should be the end of the limitations.

[kernal42]

Funny. I tried PCing these on Sarlona to find interest, and people were willing to pay at most 100k plat for them. So, apparently the player base doesn't find these to be as "Great" of Devil/Demon beaters as you do.

Are you really trying to suggest that a +3/4 holy silver of EOB is not a great devil beater?

-Kernal

[TheDearLeader]

Are you really trying to suggest that a +3/4 holy silver of EOB is not a great devil beater?

-Kernal

Me? No. I made some for a RL Friend of mine as a gift when I reached the crafting level to be able to make them unbound.

But the community, at least those that check out Sarlona Marketplace, don't seem to agree.

I don't know... "great" may be too strong a word.

One thing I just noticed... we keep saying +3/+4. We could probably bump it up to +5, since the limiting factor will no longer be the levels involved, but the ingredients used.

A crafter could create +3 Holy Silver of LOB, then +5 Holy Silver LOB, then wait the 15 Shroud completions or whatever until they get the single LDS to make a +5 Holy Silver GLOB. And maybe they'll pull a Silver Flame Token by then to even make it burst!

[kernal42]

Me? No. I made some for a RL Friend of mine as a gift when I reached the crafting level to be able to make them unbound.

But the community, at least those that check out Sarlona Marketplace, don't seem to agree.

I agree with Khurse here; I'd rather spend 150k on crafting ingredients to get my own level up than buy a fully crafted item. Why the prices aren't higher than a silver blank, though, is beyond me.

I don't know... "great" may be too strong a word.

I use "great" because they're better than the previously best sub-epic crafted weapon, the MinII (against devil bosses). As the game changes, of course, the appropriateness of such a subjective term also changes.

One thing I just noticed... we keep saying +3/+4. We could probably bump it up to +5, since the limiting factor will no longer be the levels involved, but the ingredients used.

A crafter could create +3 Holy Silver of LOB, then +5 Holy Silver LOB, then wait the 4 Shroud completions or whatever until they get the single LDS to make a +5 Holy Silver GLOB. And maybe they'll pull a Silver Flame Token by then to even make it burst!

I've been saying +3/4 wherever the discussion relates to newer players, who are most likely to be limited by crafting level rather than exceptional ingredients. The silver flame token will always be an annoying limitation for crafters in general; the LDS at least can be purchased if you hate running Shroud/have bad luck.

Also, corrected to reflect average completions given the drop rate.

-Kernal

[TheDearLeader]

Also, corrected to reflect average completions given the drop rate.

-Kernal

16 Completions, 40+ Part 1-4 farming runs, before I saw my first ever shiny LDS.

I reflect experience, because 49% of people are on the short end of that "average".

[Cyr]

Of course. I'm of the opinion that this will increase demand by at most a few (2-3) percent; more realistically around 1%.

Does your guess differ significantly from mine?

-Kernal

I am in a similar ballpark for what we see right now. However, I assume that more recipes will require ingredients of the same sort just in larger numbers. As there is little more of value then LDS/FRDS that are even remotely reasonable to expect people to have in numbers greater then (1) I do not think it is unreasonable to expect these to be used for higher level recipes...they are not going to use less desirable and valuable things after all for higher level recipes.

It is the future expansion of the system that I am looking at here where it regards these ingredients.

[IBCROOTBEER]

I agree with Khurse here; I'd rather spend 150k on crafting ingredients to get my own level up than buy a fully crafted item. Why the prices aren't higher than a silver blank, though, is beyond me.

Just curious, but is this to imply that only 150k is needed to level crafting to ~35 in order to make your own weapons ? Because I tend to think that's a little (and by a little, i mean WAY WAY WAYYYY) off.

[Rawel_San]

Ok let's compare a +3 holy silver of eob vs. a minII against harry. I will take khopeshes as the base since
they are the most common it seems.

Min II (holy, acidburst , acid blast)
+5 +1d10 17-20 crit +1d4 slicing +2d6 holy (acid is absorbed by harry's resist of 30 on norm)
so (15 * (5+5.5+2.5+7) +4*(3*(5+5.5)+2.5+7)=464

Against non acid resistant enemies (+1d6 acid +2d10 acid burst crit +2d10 acid blast crit +4d6 acid blast on 20)
(15* (5+5.5+2.5+7+3.5)+4*(3*(5+5.5)+11+11) +4*3.5=580.5


vs.
+3 holy silver of EOB
+5 +1d8 17-20 crit +2d6 holy +2d6 eob
so (15*(5+4.5+7+7)+4*(3*(5+4.5)+7+7)=522.5

This is assuming Imp:crit slashing which 90% of people have. Now I don't usually run numbers for weapons much
so please let me know if I missed something but it seems to me that against harry in particular the
holy silver of EOB outdps's a min II by about 60 points over 20 hits. Now if you do not have imp:crit slashing
the numbers will instantly switch to the Min II assuming you have more then +4 or so in damage bonuses (i.e.
a strength of 18), but the number of melee builds without imp: crit in their main weapon is miniscule if any.

If you factor in harry's fort, the numbers will actually favor the +3 holy silver of EoB a bit more. There is no
possible way you can say that +3 holy silver of EoB is not a good devil beater it will outdps a min II on all the
main devil bosses (harry/suulu/horoth). Against trash with 0 acid resist the acid burst and acid blast of the min II pulls ahead by the same amount it was behind on bosses but given that even most devil/orthon trash has
10-15 acid res the 1d6 gets eaten and both the burst and the blast go from 11 average to about 3. So just about
cutting even at best.

[kernal42]

I am in a similar ballpark for what we see right now. However, I assume that more recipes will require ingredients of the same sort just in larger numbers. As there is little more of value then LDS/FRDS that are even remotely reasonable to expect people to have in numbers greater then (1) I do not think it is unreasonable to expect these to be used for higher level recipes...they are not going to use less desirable and valuable things after all for higher level recipes.

It is the future expansion of the system that I am looking at here where it regards these ingredients.

Absolutely a reasonable concern. Certainly, for example, the pattern suggests that unbound GLOB shards will require 3 LDS.

Just curious, but is this to imply that only 150k is needed to level crafting to ~35 in order to make your own weapons ? Because I tend to think that's a little (and by a little, i mean WAY WAY WAYYYY) off.

No, I am not trying to imply that. Simply that buying crafting materials is, IMO, a better long-term investment than purchasing pre-crafted items.

That said, I don't think 150k is "WAY WAY WAYYYY" off for reaching level 35. I would guess it cost me in the ballpark 500k of items (deconned rather than sold; I bought no essences) to reach level 35 in arcane and divine. This is only an estimate though; it's certainly possible I'm way off.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Cyr]

People don't want to craft/buy mediocre.

Yup, this sums up the basic concept here pretty well.

It's fine and dandy to say "hey this item is pretty decent", but it's not very relevant when very few care. People don't want to have mediocre items. They don't get excited about mediocre items. They want what is the best or pretty dang close to it.

It would be the same thing as if you were trying to convince people how viable some piece of epic loot was because it was okay, but something else clearly blows it out of the water.

The discussion about the boss beater weapons is NOT a discussion about super casual players and new players. It's a discussion about vets and those who play the game more then one hour a week. The super casuals are rarely setting foot in places that they need boss beaters. The new players are barely scratching buy on plat and are not going to be terribly advantaged to drop all their incoming income on crafting...no they will be better off getting a junk dr breaker off the AH for a pitance, because there is ALOT more that they want beyond just a speciality weapon to do really good damage in a limited few places.

[DrNuegebauer]

I'll stop making it sound like a big deal when it comes to the point that it isn't a big deal.

Wasn't there some warning about crafting being in BETA??

If you chose to ignore that, and sink 3million plat into it, then that's your problem isn't it? You are making ridiculous posts about how expensive a greater bane shard is going to be - but conveniently ignoring the fact that they SHOULD be expensive. Your argument seems to be based around "I'm getting shafted for investing too much into a beta system" - well, sorry to point out the obvious here, but the writing was really on the wall wasn't it?

holy of bane = good enough. holy burst of greater bane = very good, and SHOULD cost more.

[Cyr]

Wasn't there some warning about crafting being in BETA??

Let me spell this out for people.

The developers need feedback in BETA. They want feedback in BETA. If you don't give feedback in BETA about things that you find stupid, annoying, or that just plain don't work then you should not be surprised when those same things appear in the final build.

[DrNuegebauer]

Just curious, but is this to imply that only 150k is needed to level crafting to ~35 in order to make your own weapons ? Because I tend to think that's a little (and by a little, i mean WAY WAY WAYYYY) off.

Really?

I'm not sure what anyone else did to reach level 35, but I didn't spend 1 cent on buying crafting materials.
Ran a few shrouds, deconned items, transferred all greater essences to the crafter and then got down to business.

In only a few hours I was 35s in crafting level.

So to imply 150k is waaaay off might be right - you could easily level to 35 for free (just gather up and off you go!)

[DrNuegebauer]

Let me spell this out for people.

The developers need feedback in BETA. They want feedback in BETA. If you don't give feedback in BETA about things that you find stupid, annoying, or that just plain don't work then you should not be surprised when those same things appear in the final build.

So then the fact that uber weapons are becoming more EXPENSIVE to craft is a good thing right?

The MISTAKE in the Beta version was to make them far too accessible wasn't it?

Good to see it being fixed I guess.

[gloopygloop]

So they should only use things for crafting that are cheap and no one cares about?

Large Devil Scales are valuable, therefore it makes sense (to me) to use LDS as a reasonable ingredient use to make the best devil beater.

And yes, it is a nice weapon,for devils. Which make up a fairly decent percentage of the endgame.

Again, no one is forcing anyone to pay a LDS for a devil beater. Holy of Bane will work perfectly well if someone doesn't want to fork out a single LDS per weapon.

When just about every other crafting recipe uses things that are cheap and no one cares about (Glittering Dusts, Lodestones, Slayer arrows, Greater/Lesser Essences and Chattering Rings), I think that kind of defines the theme of crafting.

Generic, relatively cheap stuff that isn't terribly expensive to create AFTER you go through the insane expense of getting to that level in crafting is what Cannith crafting is all about.