GLOB Shards

[kernal42]

You say that under the pretense that Min IIs are useful for only Devils and Demons. Again, this argument rings hollow.

I don't understand how you can continue to be blind to this. There's approximately no justifiable reason to craft MinII anymore; not when LitII is such a better option for anything you would want a shroud-crafted weapon for.

But that's fine, I see that the consensus of Forumites with opinions on crafting is that Crafters should be at all times broke in platinum, boot ingredients, shroud ingredients, tomes, and epic tokens. Oh, and should be using more named items in order to make a single shard.

Your strawman is hilarious and irrelevant.

-Kernal

[Rawel_San]

You say that under the pretense that Min IIs are useful for only Devils and Demons. Again, this argument rings hollow.

But that's fine, I see that the consensus of Forumites with opinions on crafting is that Crafters should be at all times broke in platinum, boot ingredients, shroud ingredients, tomes, and epic tokens. Oh, and should be using more named items in order to make a single shard.

Those who played prior to DDO:EU still have plenty of scales to go around and... oh? You mean there are some people that join *after* there was more to do than farm Shroud? Dang, too bad for them.

I am a crafter. And I joined after DDO:EU came out. Min II's are useful for very few things other then breaking
demon and devil DR. There are very few places outside demon/devil bosses where litII's don't perform better.
Only places I can think of are possibly some constructs but for those GCB or now smiting ( if you don't have it on
DT) is better. Also probably running with devils.

[kernal42]

How about you do it, to prove yourself right? If you're so sure of yourself, then it should be fulfilling for you to do so.

Because you're the one making the outlandish claim. Therefore, the burden of proof lies upon you. Also, I can't be tasked with gathering evidence to disprove every absurd speculation posited on these forums.

-Kernal

[Rawel_San]

<snip>
How about *you* stop editing each and every post you make to add something? If it wasn't important enough to say the first time, don't say it. Now I have to go back and needlessly edit this post. >.<

And I've already related my personal experience with crafting in other threads, I'm sorry you missed it.

Saving up mats prior to day 1 of Live crafting, spending 3mil+ plat on Essences/vendor trash to decon into essences, hours in the Crafting Hall, couple XP pots from the store here and there, and 95% of the loot I've found from farming 5 level 20 toons through Shroud after Shroud after eBigTop after IQ after Amrath getting deconstructed.

Meanwhile, non-crafting players benefit from all that extra plat, and the plat they gain from selling those items instead of deconstructing it.

I'll stop making it sound like a big deal when it comes to the point that it isn't a big deal.

I apologize for the edits but if you go back you will see you are at least as guilty of them as I am. I craft and
I intend to continue crafting. I have spent about 1.5 mil plat so far and will probably spend another 4-5 before
I cap to 100. So what? It's a one time cost that doesn't even come close to a mari chain scroll or even esos.
Yet the items that are craftable are almost on par with those items for the purposes they are meant.
+5 HB of GLOB is right now only surpassed by eSoS and possibly eChaosblade and even then only if slotted
properly.

[Rawel_San]

Also the price for LDS on the thelanis marketplace has been stagnant at about 350-400k for many weeks now.
It might have possibly slightly decreased after the introduction of crafting due to the number of players not quite
unlike me that need to fund their crafting habit.

[kernal42]

Also the price for LDS on the thelanis marketplace has been stagnant at about 350-400k for many weeks now.
It might have possibly slightly decreased after the introduction of crafting due to the number of players not quite
unlike me that need to fund their crafting habit.

Because crafting is acting so effectively as a plat sink, the value of plat should be increasing and the price of scales (and other such commodities) should be decreasing slightly.

-Kernal

[TheDearLeader]

Because you're the one making the outlandish claim. Therefore, the burden of proof lies upon you. Also, I can't be tasked with gathering evidence to disprove every absurd speculation posited on these forums.

-Kernal

I see your claim to be outlandish, sir, not the other way around. An item that will have increased use will have increased demand. That's about as basic a concept as I can think of.

I apologize for the edits but if you go back you will see you are at least as guilty of them as I am.

Yeah, because I respond to you, hit the "post" button, and see you've added another paragraph worth of naysaying to what which I originally responded to.

I craft andI intend to continue crafting. I have spent about 1.5 mil plat so far and will probably spend another 4-5 beforeI cap to 100. So what? It's a one time cost that doesn't even come close to a mari chain scroll or even esos.Yet the items that are craftable are almost on par with those items for the purposes they are meant.

Show me one Cannith Crafted Item that has Seeker +10, Shatter +10, DR 5/Good or Lawful, Evil Guard, and a Blue Augment Slot. Eff that, show me one that has *any* Epic Augment slot.

I'm glad you have 4~5 mil plat additional to spare. That 3 mil took me to worrying if I'd have enough to buy Cure Serious pots for a while.

+5 HB of GLOB is right now only surpassed by eSoS and possibly eChaosblade and even then only if slotted
properly.

Against a single type of mob. It is a situational weapon; eSoS is going to be champ wherever it goes. Chaosblade is going to be pimp anywhere that you're fighting Lawful opponents. Neither of these pieces of Epic Weaponry are threatened by Cannith Crafting when they have such obvious versatility over them.

And again... it's not like the market is being flooded with these ML:20 zuber boss beaters. It benefits the crafter and the crafter alone.

I don't understand why people interested in crafting are also interested in masochism. You're not punishing anyone but fellow crafters and yourself. And as someone who owns an eSoS, eSpectrals, and a ton of other eShinies... I don't feel threatened by Cannith Crafting.

[kernal42]

I see your claim to be outlandish, sir, not the other way around. An item that will have increased use will have increased demand. That's about as basic a concept as I can think of.

Oh, it's just a miscommunication. That's good.

Of course I agree that there will be increased demand*. There's no question about that. My viewpoint is that the increase will be so small that it will not measurably increase the value of LDS. See:

The increased usage of LDS for the GLOB shards will be tiny compared to how often LDS are used for greensteel. It will not noticably increase the demand & cost of LDS.

Color added for emphasis.

LDS use will continue to be used so much more in Shroud crafting than in Cannith crafting that the increased usage & demand will not cause a measurable price change.

Cheers,
Kernal

*Although even this isn't necessarily true; as Rawel_San points out, there may be a more significant reduction in scale demand due to people no longer crafting 5-LDS MinII weapons, and instead crafting 1-LDS HBSGLOB. This statement involves too much speculation for my taste, so I'm satisfied assuming that shroud-crafting demands for LDS will remain approximately unchanged.

[Dirac]

TheDearLeader is pretty much correct everywhere here, and deserves a medal of some kind keeping up the argument throughout. LDS is a horrible choice for this recipe for every reason mentioned: it's too much, already in too high a demand, mixing crafting systems, raid loot, etc.

Especially because there are so many other options (many mentioned in this thread), please remove the LDS. This is a new system, and the opportunity to craft a new weapon is cool. It attracted a lot of people. It is now probably out of reach for some.

For those of us who have the LDS to spare, it isn't hard, just depressingly boring. Ugh, shroud ingredients again. Can you imagine, when they released MOD 1, they said, "To access the new raid, and to see the first dragon in DDO, you have to gather for a rare collectible .... in waterworks! Start farming it now!"

For the record, I made level 65 divine before the patch, so I've made my GLOB shards. I just don't think the new guy to the party needs to get worked over quite this bad.

[Khurse]

TheDearLeader is pretty much correct everywhere here, and deserves a medal of some kind keeping up the argument throughout. LDS is a horrible choice for this recipe for every reason mentioned: it's too much, already in too high a demand, mixing crafting systems, raid loot, etc.

Especially because there are so many other options (many mentioned in this thread), please remove the LDS. This is a new system, and the opportunity to craft a new weapon is cool. It attracted a lot of people. It is now probably out of reach for some.

For those of us who have the LDS to spare, it isn't hard, just depressingly boring. Ugh, shroud ingredients again. Can you imagine, when they released MOD 1, they said, "To access the new raid, and to see the first dragon in DDO, you have to gather for a rare collectible .... in waterworks! Start farming it now!"

For the record, I made level 65 divine before the patch, so I've made my GLOB shards. I just don't think the new guy to the party needs to get worked over quite this bad.

And I don't think asking someone for a single LDS for a greater Bane is working them over.
I do think it's a great idea to make the higher/more valuable items you can craft have some sort of cost
I don't think anyone has to make a GLOB shard in the first place.
As mentioned in a few dozen places by now, a +3/4 Holy shard of bane provides plenty of DPS . And doesn't cost you a LDS if you can't afford to pay it.
Players have the ability to choose whether to pay a LDS for a Greater bane, or not and go with something else.

[Cyr]

*Although even this isn't necessarily true; as Rawel_San points out, there may be a more significant reduction in scale demand due to people no longer crafting 5-LDS MinII weapons, and instead crafting 1-LDS HBSGLOB. This statement involves too much speculation for my taste, so I'm satisfied assuming that shroud-crafting demands for LDS will remain approximately unchanged.

The reason why LDS are expensive is that they are used more then other shroud ingredients in most recipes particulary the good ones.

Clearly adding more recipes of high demand will increase their prices given stable supply as they will be even more used then other shroud ingredients.

That alone should have been a powerful rational to avoid using high demand shroud ingredients in high demand recipes and instead used lesser demand ingredients. That would have gone a long ways towards equalizing demand across GS ingredients which is good for the game because always pulling something valued is alot more fun then rarely pulling something a little more valuable.

[kernal42]

TheDearLeader is pretty much correct everywhere here

No.

The stance TheDearLeader has taken has merit; however his arguments do not.

Either he is providing any conceivable argument hoping that one will stick, or he is simply right(ish) for the wrong reasons. Neither case is admirable and deserving of a medal of any kind.

-Kernal

[kernal42]

The reason why LDS are expensive is that they are used more then other shroud ingredients in most recipes particulary the good ones.

Of course.

Clearly adding more recipes of high demand will increase their prices given stable supply as they will be even more used then other shroud ingredients.

By how much? What fraction of LDS do you expect will be used in Cannith Crafting rather than Shroud crafting, if this change remains? 1%? 5%? 10%?

If 1% of LDS are used in Cannith crafting, that'll correspond to roughly a 1% increase in the value of LDS. This is hardly significant or meaningful.

Even 10% wouldn't be terribly significant, though it would certainly be measurable and meaningful.

-Kernal

[Dirac]

And I don't think asking someone for a single LDS for a greater Bane is working them over.
I do think it's a great idea to make the higher/more valuable items you can craft have some sort of cost
I don't think anyone has to make a GLOB shard in the first place.
As mentioned in a few dozen places by now, a +3/4 Holy shard of bane provides plenty of DPS . And doesn't cost you a LDS if you can't afford to pay it.
Players have the ability to choose whether to pay a LDS for a Greater bane, or not and go with something else.

I know you don't and I know you have. And allowing people who craft instead of raid to build a +4 HBoGLOB doesn't break the game. Neither will they compete against the dps of someone who has put in the time to acquire epic equipment, +3/+4 tomes, and ToD sets, who are wielding just MinII. It will, however, allow them to be in the same groups without being a waste of space. The weapon is sexy. That is the draw. Of course you need balance between effort and reward, but the more you make it out of reach, the more people get frustrated and leave.

[Cyr]

If 1% of LDS are used in Cannith crafting, that'll correspond to roughly a 1% increase in the value of LDS. This is hardly significant or meaningful.

From a supply and demand perspective a 1% increase in demand may result in no increase in price or little, but a 10% increase could result in a much larger then 10% increase in price. This depends upon the available funds of those purchasing these commodities and if they commodities are running short on supply. If they have lots of liquid funds then crazy things can happen here as is the case if that extra demand/unit time overcomes the supply/unit time.

[Rawel_San]

While I stand by my original assessment that being able to craft glob's/gcob's will either decrease
the demand for scales (since less will be used for making minII's) or keep it roughly the same (more probable
really due to the level of the recipes along with the fact that not everyone will even want to use cannith crafting),
I'm in no way stuck on LDS as being the ingredient of choice. Anything roughly of equal value that is unbound
and of about the same rarity will work fine. Amrath boot ingredients for one, but I'm sure other choices can be
found.

The reason that LDS stands out as a good choice is that the market is fairly stable and saturated, and
the fact that the main competitor (I know I'm boring you with the min II's by now) uses the same ingredient
means the market should not react too violently. If instead you chose (for arguments sake) a tome page or
something like the bloodstone the chances are the effects on the market would be much more pronounced, as
there is nowhere need as steady an influx of tome pages or even bloodstones into the economy as there is of
LDS.

[kernal42]

From a supply and demand perspective a 1% increase in demand may result in no increase in price or little, but a 10% increase could result in a much larger then 10% increase in price. This depends upon the available funds of those purchasing these commodities and if they commodities are running short on supply. If they have lots of liquid funds then crazy things can happen here as is the case if that extra demand/unit time overcomes the supply/unit time.

Of course. I'm of the opinion that this will increase demand by at most a few (2-3) percent; more realistically around 1%.

Does your guess differ significantly from mine?

-Kernal

[TheDearLeader]

No.

The stance TheDearLeader has taken has merit; however his arguments do not.

Either he is providing any conceivable argument hoping that one will stick, or he is simply right(ish) for the wrong reasons. Neither case is admirable and deserving of a medal of any kind.

-Kernal

No.

The stance Kernal42 has taken has merit; however his arguments do not.

Either he is providing any conceivable agument hoping that one will stick, or he is simply right(ish) for the wrong reasons. Neither case is admirable or...

See? Two can play that game.

But hey, heaven forbid someone openly agree with me. You want crafting to be cost prohibitive that badly? Please feel free to mail me all your LDS, each and every one. Oh, and your plat. Oh, and only run one toon through Shroud - all the others are on time out, sorry. Complete every time.

Now, use that one toon's LDSes to craft all your other toons GLOB shards. But, those toons also need to have 5 LDSes saved up, so you can make a Min II accesory as soon as you have the Shard.

Oh, and I'll also take your Demon's Bloods, and with no plat, and no mats, I'll let *you* make the judgment call to start from scratch on making a HBCoGCOB, or making a Min II against eLailat.

The haves, maintaining a nice, wide gap between them and the have nots... I already have my shards. None of this argument is for my sake, unless I make 5 more level 20s.

But I see a Premium/VIP new to level 20 that isn't going to make it into raids because his gear sucks, who is broke because he's put so much attention into crafting, can't make boots for ToD, can't make himself a single tier III GS, more less having 2x Lit II and a Min II HP item, who is then being told by a crafting device that he has to spend one of the two LDS he's gotten in 20 something Shroud completions to make a single shard that doesn't even complete what would be a good boss beater.

Because that's the environment that apparently we want. We want to make sure that it's months of time before we let people come and play with the rest of us.

[Dirac]

The stance TheDearLeader has taken has merit; however his arguments do not.

I was posting my agreement without having to repeat his arguments, not having been in this thread. You've already posted enough to demonstrate you disagree. I'm speaking to the developers who may be reading this thread, and am not interested in your assessment of the arguments you've made.

Either he is providing any conceivable argument hoping that one will stick, or he is simply right(ish) for the wrong reasons. Neither case is admirable and deserving of a medal of any kind.

Obviously, anyone on the other side of this argument believes this objection applies to you.

[Khurse]

No.




Because that's the environment that apparently we want. We want to make sure that it's months of time before we let people come and play with the rest of us.

Yeah, I'm still waiting on anyone to point out how having someone able to craft a +4 Holy of LOB (presumably on a silver weapon) is somehow denying them gear that they need.