GLOB Shards

[agent00skid]

Arguing that some of the proposed alternatives are not necessarily good.

And why is 1 LDS too much? It's true that it's very valuable, but isn't what you can get with the shard that too?

[TheDearLeader]

All of this is true, except the demand for LDS.

The increased usage of LDS for the GLOB shards will be tiny compared to how often LDS are used for greensteel. It will not noticably increase the demand & cost of LDS.

-Kernal

If you don't think it will significantly change demand, then I don't see why you care whether or not it's part of the crafting formula.

You either: Think is is an item of value, and by having another use, it will have increased demand.

Or you don't.

[sirgog]

Change it from the ******** Large Devil Scales to something more reasonable like Large Gnawed Bones or Large Splintered Horns.

Or better yet… give us 4 recipes. Level 65 = Large Devil Scale, Level 70 = Large Splintered Horn, Level 75 = 5 Soulgems (Per your suggestion), Level 80 = Large Gnawed Bone.

This.

Of course, noone would ever make any of the level 65 ones unless they were desparate, as soul gems and bones are so much cheaper.

[DrNuegebauer]

The crafting of even a +5 Holy Silver of GLOB, more less +5 HBSoGLOB, would exceed 600k plat.

I fail to see the problem here at all?????????


Why should the best DR breaker for most raid bosses NOT cost a packet????????


It's still cheaper than a Min II (and better) - makes perfect sense to me for it to be 600k.

I don't suppose you ever saw a Holy Silver Evil Outsider Bane (not greater) weapon on the AH BEFORE crafting came out? If you did, you might have noticed those bad boys went for the $600k mark! (and then some)

[oradafu]

I don't want to detour the discuss much, but I'd like to add my two thoughts on the situation.

First, if Demon's Blood is still what is needed for Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane, I'd like to see it drop in more quests. The obvious quests would be Epic DQ1&2 and Elite In the Demon's Den. It would be nice to see ingredients for Cannith crafting (such as needed for Bane shards) to be available in quests that they are useful in. Obvious Soul Gems can be obtained in the quests that the Bane will be used it. I'd like to see the other ingredients drop in corresponding quests that the bane would be used in, such as Runic Parchment appearing in collectibles of quest that contain constructs.

Second, this gives the Devs a reason to adjust the drop rate of all ingredients at higher difficulties for Shroud, like several people have been begging for. This would give new incentives for people to run Shroud on a difficulty higher than Normal.

[waterboytkd]

So you're fine with it requiring a LDS. But you're not fine with Soul Gems, obtained by Green Steel Vacuum II, which requires to make it.. you guessed it.. LDS?

That by itself highlights where I fail to see the merit of this argument. At the very least, the Vac II would be useful to you in a variety of content.

I, personally, would literally only use a Vac II to farm soul gems. And that's because I primarily play melees. Only recently have I expanded into caster territory with a FvS, and even that's a melee build (yes, I have some bias against Soul Gems). Which means my melees are mostly geared through the teeth (LitII, SoS, and I got in on the crafting quick, so +5 Holy Burst Greater Banes). Sure, others, especially "newer" players would probably get more use from them. But a dedicated melee? Probably just using them as a Soul Gem farming weapon.

Now consider what I have to do to get a Vac II: I have to run shroud a ton (or epic DA, I guess) to get my ingredients and shards. Oh, and I have to run a fair amount of Vale (~12 quests, less if rares give me petals/husks) to get my GS blank. Then I have to spend how many LDS, Stones, Shrap, etc? It is a much larger cost requirement. I mean, the cost of a Vac II is, what, 4 LDS? So, I could make a Vac II, using 4 LDS (as well as a boatload of other mats), or I could make 4 GLOB shards?

I can get a single LDS pretty easily. The AH. Any amrath quest. Epic DA, I guess. Obviously, shroud. And I don't have to run that many shrouds, if that's the route I choose, to get a single LDS.

Requiring Soul Gems means you either have a caster, or you run raids/epics. Considering one of the points of crafting, according to MadFloyd, is that it's supposed to be a viable alternative to raids and epics, requiring a raid/epic item just to craft seems counterproductive. Unless you have a caster.

So, again, for a system that mostly benefits just melees/weapon users (I guess AAs can get something out of the system, too) and is meant, at least in part, to be a viable substitution for raids/epics, requiring either a caster, a raid weapon, or an epic weapon, seems counterproductive.

[Flavilandile]

I won't rant on the LDS rarity, everybody that posted before me more or less went that way, but I'd like to point out something everybody seems to have missed :

Large Devil Scales ( and any other Greensteel Ingredient ) can be looted from an Adventure Pack Quest/Raid.
( Vale, Amrath or Devil Assault )

THAT is a huge problem for F2P and premiums, as they don't own the packs by default ( ok, I know they will have gotten enough favor to buy at least one of said packs... in theory. ).

This alone set apart players in two categories : those that can freely farm the three areas to get the ( rare ) LDS, and those that can't get it and will have to buy it one way or another ( and if they can't get into those area it's relatively safe to assume that they won't have the money/gear to trade for a LDS )

IMNSHO Cannith Crafting shouldn't require any ingredient that cannot be obtained by a F2P player.

Soul Gems can be obtained by F2P players, right now they are mostly left to rot on the ground, but if they have a value they will be picked up
Soul Gems seems to be a good alternative to LDS ( and any Adventure pack ingredient )

Another alternative to Adventure pack ingredients would be traps ( grenades or real traps ) and trap parts, as Trapmaking is mostly unused.

[Khurse]

I won't rant on the LDS rarity, everybody that posted before me more or less went that way, but I'd like to point out something everybody seems to have missed :

Large Devil Scales ( and any other Greensteel Ingredient ) can be looted from an Adventure Pack Quest/Raid.
( Vale, Amrath or Devil Assault )

THAT is a huge problem for F2P and premiums, as they don't own the packs by default ( ok, I know they will have gotten enough favor to buy at least one of said packs... in theory. ).

This alone set apart players in two categories : those that can freely farm the three areas to get the ( rare ) LDS, and those that can't get it and will have to buy it one way or another ( and if they can't get into those area it's relatively safe to assume that they won't have the money/gear to trade for a LDS )

.

Again (wow, I wonder how many times I use that word, I really need a new opening line)
You do not need to craft +5 HB of GLOB in order to be effective.
A +3/4 holy of Bane weapon will work perfectly well.

Second (as mentioned previously by a few people) if you don't have any of the packs where LDS drop, you don't need to use a LDS to make devil beater.

The only places that you really find use for them are Amrath,Shroud, and EDA.
If you don't ever play these, or don't ever plan on it, then I wouldn't worry about finding a LDS to craft with.

[waterboytkd]

I won't rant on the LDS rarity, everybody that posted before me more or less went that way, but I'd like to point out something everybody seems to have missed :

Large Devil Scales ( and any other Greensteel Ingredient ) can be looted from an Adventure Pack Quest/Raid.
( Vale, Amrath or Devil Assault )

THAT is a huge problem for F2P and premiums, as they don't own the packs by default ( ok, I know they will have gotten enough favor to buy at least one of said packs... in theory. ).

This alone set apart players in two categories : those that can freely farm the three areas to get the ( rare ) LDS, and those that can't get it and will have to buy it one way or another ( and if they can't get into those area it's relatively safe to assume that they won't have the money/gear to trade for a LDS )

IMNSHO Cannith Crafting shouldn't require any ingredient that cannot be obtained by a F2P player.

Soul Gems can be obtained by F2P players, right now they are mostly left to rot on the ground, but if they have a value they will be picked up
Soul Gems seems to be a good alternative to LDS ( and any Adventure pack ingredient )

First: I've seen this sentiment a lot with regards to Cannith Crafting, but why should it be fully accessible at all levels to F2P? I mean, they said it's a substitute for raiding and epics, but that in no way implies that it was meant to be totally free. I, for one, like the idea you can do most of it F2P, but to do the best stuff, you either shop on the AH, or you buy packs. You can still get LDS as F2P, or you can actually fund the people that are making the game you are playing and enjoying.

Second: How on earth are Soul Gems any more available to F2P than a LDS? It's not like F2P have Vac II weapons, or an epic Souleater to farm with. And, correct if I'm wrong here, don't the free quests end at level 12 or something? Can you get a F2P character up to level 17? Even then, you're requiring F2P to make casters for crafting then. And if the argument is they can buy them, you can buy LDS, too...

Third: If the Soul Gem needed for GLOB is the dominater, which you get from devils, how are F2P even farming them? Wouldn't they drop out of the content that F2P don't have?

In my estimation, unless you regularly play a caster, an LDS is much easier to come by than Soul Gems.

[Rawel_San]

Change it from the ******** Large Devil Scales to something more reasonable like Large Gnawed Bones or Large Splintered Horns.

Or better yet… give us 4 recipes. Level 65 = Large Devil Scale, Level 70 = Large Splintered Horn, Level 75 = 5 Soulgems (Per your suggestion), Level 80 = Large Gnawed Bone.

No. If anything add an extra large to it. You're crafting the best boss beater in the game bar epic SoS/chaosblade it should not be free.

[DrNuegebauer]

I won't rant on the LDS rarity, everybody that posted before me more or less went that way, but I'd like to point out something everybody seems to have missed :

Large Devil Scales ( and any other Greensteel Ingredient ) can be looted from an Adventure Pack Quest/Raid.
( Vale, Amrath or Devil Assault )

THAT is a huge problem for F2P and premiums, as they don't own the packs by default ( ok, I know they will have gotten enough favor to buy at least one of said packs... in theory. ).

Without those packs, what do you need a Greater Evil Outsider Bane weapon for exactly?!?

[karl_k0ch]

Without those packs, what do you need a Greater Evil Outsider Bane weapon for exactly?!?

GEOB could see some use in Menechtarun. GLOB, however has its uses in House P Epics, as well.


Re: LDS. They are as rare as other Shroud mats, but they are required in a superior number in most GS recipes. Other ingredients are not so much in demand. Why not take, say, 2 Large Stones? They are needed for GS items as well, in similar amount as the LDS, and you are not cutting the same corner; so you do not base two crafting systems on the shortage of the same ingredients.

Different ingredients would allow reasonable prices on the AH for both ingredients, and not one single important ingredient, which causes the players to run shroud more often for LDS exclusively, further devaluating other Large Ingredients in comparison to LDS.

[DrNuegebauer]

GEOB could see some use in Menechtarun. GLOB, however has its uses in House P Epics, as well.

Forgive my faux pas - but aren't those purchasable adventure packs anyway?!?!?

I just find his argument illogical.

[karl_k0ch]

Forgive my faux pas - but aren't those purchasable adventure packs anyway?!?!?

I just find his argument illogical.

They are, but they are different packs than the ones where you get the ingredients. On the other hand, it's not the best plan to craft a GLOB weapon when you aren't going to do a fight in eChrono, DA, Shroud, ToD or VoD. I get your point, and I agree.

I think it's a good decision to tie them thematically. (Instead of, say, requiring Dragon Blood for Ooze bane shards, and Demon's Blood for Halfling bane shards.)

[kernal42]

If you don't think it will significantly change demand, then I don't see why you care whether or not it's part of the crafting formula.

You either: Think is is an item of value, and by having another use, it will have increased demand.

Or you don't.

No.

We agree that it is an item of value. However, if one LDS is eaten up in cannith crafting for every 100 that are used in greensteel recipes, then the demand is not significantly changed.

Probably 1:100 ratio is a little low, but not too far off.

-Kernal

[TheDearLeader]

No.

We agree that it is an item of value. However, if one LDS is eaten up in cannith crafting for every 100 that are used in greensteel recipes, then the demand is not significantly changed.

Probably 1:100 ratio is a little low, but not too far off.

-Kernal

Yeah... read it. Don't buy it.

The demand of LDS will go up. In fact, it probably already is, in anticipation of the fact.

The fact that it is already such a commodity that most of the high-end gear in the game uses LDS as a form of currency in purchasing it from another player (accompanied by FRDS) shows its worth.

This makes crafting one of these cost-prohibitive at best. And I see no reason to prohibit someone who has grinded 70~80 levels in two separate schools the ability to craft that which was the reason for them leveling in the first place.

it's not like the economy is getting flooded with these Shards. They're BtA. A crafter benefits from this formula 1-2 times per toon per life. Still, for someone with 4 toons, that could be what, 8 LDS? That's a Lit II and a Triple Earth HP item they have to wait on crafting. Why? Because some people feel like crafters should be punished for using that which they have earned, crafting levels.

[Rawel_San]

Yeah... read it. Don't buy it.

The demand of LDS will go up. In fact, it probably already is, in anticipation of the fact.

The fact that it is already such a commodity that most of the high-end gear in the game uses LDS as a form of currency in purchasing it from another player (accompanied by FRDS) shows its worth.

This makes crafting one of these cost-prohibitive at best. And I see no reason to prohibit someone who has grinded 70~80 levels in two separate schools the ability to craft that which was the reason for them leveling in the first place.

it's not like the economy is getting flooded with these Shards. They're BtA. A crafter benefits from this formula 1-2 times per toon per life. Still, for someone with 4 toons, that could be what, 8 LDS? That's a Lit II and a Triple Earth HP item they have to wait on crafting. Why? Because some people feel like crafters should be punished for using that which they have earned, crafting levels.

If anything the demand for LDS should go down. Most characters have Min II's for this purpose. That means
5 scales. Now you replace it with something that costs 1 scale. How does that increase demand?? (actually 2 scales since you make glob and gcob)

Also stop making it sound as if crafting is something you earned through huge sacrifice and ability. I've done it and am doing it. It costs a bit of plat and
some grind. It has no component of skill whatsoever and only has to be done once per Account as opposed to per character. If (and this seems very likely)
the unbound crafting shards keep increasing it might even end up being remotely lucrative (though so far that seems a ways away).

[TheDearLeader]

If anything the demand for LDS should go down. Most characters have Min II's for this purpose. That means
5 scales now you replace it with something that costs 1 scale. How does that increase demand??

You say that under the pretense that Min IIs are useful for only Devils and Demons. Again, this argument rings hollow.

But that's fine, I see that the consensus of Forumites with opinions on crafting is that Crafters should be at all times broke in platinum, boot ingredients, shroud ingredients, tomes, and epic tokens. Oh, and should be using more named items in order to make a single shard.

Those who played prior to DDO:EU still have plenty of scales to go around and... oh? You mean there are some people that join *after* there was more to do than farm Shroud? Dang, too bad for them.

Also stop making it sound as if crafting is something you earned through huge sacrifice and ability. I've done it and am doing it. It costs a bit of plat and
some grind. It has no component of skill whatsoever and only has to be done once per Account as opposed to per character. If (and this seems very likely)
the unbound crafting shards keep increasing it might even end up being remotely lucrative (though so far that seems a ways away).

How about *you* stop editing each and every post you make to add something? If it wasn't important enough to say the first time, don't say it. Now I have to go back and needlessly edit this post. >.<

And I've already related my personal experience with crafting in other threads, I'm sorry you missed it.

Saving up mats prior to day 1 of Live crafting, spending 3mil+ plat on Essences/vendor trash to decon into essences, hours in the Crafting Hall, couple XP pots from the store here and there, and 95% of the loot I've found from farming 5 level 20 toons through Shroud after Shroud after eBigTop after IQ after Amrath getting deconstructed.

Meanwhile, non-crafting players benefit from all that extra plat, and the plat they gain from selling those items instead of deconstructing it.

I'll stop making it sound like a big deal when it comes to the point that it isn't a big deal.

[kernal42]

Yeah... read it. Don't buy it.

The demand of LDS will go up. In fact, it probably already is, in anticipation of the fact.

Please document this by recording LDS sale prices, adjusted for fluctuating plat value (deflation atm, actually). Then please post your results demonstrating the value (correlated with demand) has increased by no more than 5%.

Then please abandon this particular line of reasoning (that increased demand of LDS will skyrocket their prices).

Cheers,
Kernal

[TheDearLeader]

Please document this by recording LDS sale prices, adjusted for fluctuating plat value (deflation atm, actually). Then please post your results demonstrating the value (correlated with demand) has increased by no more than 5%.

Then please abandon this particular line of reasoning (that increased demand of LDS will skyrocket their prices).

Cheers,
Kernal

How about you do it, to prove yourself right? If you're so sure of yourself, then it should be fulfilling for you to do so.