The "New" Holy Burst

[oradafu]

well... I like the change to a BTA item, but the problem I had had with using the silver flame pots was that a +1 Holy Burst weapon should be a min. level 6 item. So I think it should reasonably be able to be crafted by a first time character within a few levels of that. I think requiring favor that is not achievable by a level appropriate character should be excluded from crafting. Save these extreme requirements for the shards of potential.

Unless they're dropping with high rates in catacombs and necro I & II. But the rate needs to be high enough that a character farming them doesn't level past the content.

Well, since Holy Burst is a level 72 shard, I doubt many first time characters will be able to craft it while they are still running Catacombs, Necro 1 or even Necro 2.

[Tsuarok]

Well, since Holy Burst is a level 72 shard, I doubt many first time characters will be able to craft it while they are still running Catacombs, Necro 1 or even Necro 2.

That is... distressing... Why in the name of god is a ml 6 shard requiring level 72? It would be difficult to get into the 30s at that level without someone supplying your mats.

[Desonde]

21 G. Good
192 L. Good
1 Purified Ebb. Dragonshard
2 Lodestones
1 Mark of the Silver Flame (Base Price : 400 Plat)

Mark of the Silver Flame Info:


Purified Dragonshard Info:


I have not gone adventuring to see just how often they pop in chests, or if there is a min level of quest to find these items, etc.

So, under the assumption they drop somewhere semi-reasonable... thoughts on this change?

I think this is a fair recipe, Holy Burst is great, but it's not that great/uncommon. My only concern is the accessibility of the Mark and the Purified Shard.

[Shade]

That is... distressing... Why in the name of god is a ml 6 shard requiring level 72? It would be difficult to get into the 30s at that level without someone supplying your mats.

Because it's the absolute best prefix for a huge variety of weapons/monsters at the endgame.

[Full_Bleed]

Because it's the absolute best prefix for a huge variety of weapons/monsters at the endgame.

And it's a prefix that most level 6-10 players have on a weapon or two. So they'll be looking to craft weapons to compete with those. Setting it up to be craftable for "endgame" players doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

If the marks drop reasonably enough, maybe this isn't an issue. But that would beg the question, "Why make it that difficult to begin with?" The only people this hurts are the casual gamers.

The power gamers either already have their HB shards crafted before the change or already have a character with 400 SF favor (or will quickly run one up and buy a few hundred pots so they never have to do it again.) Casual, non-raiding, non-greensteel crafters are back to looking at stuff that's out of reach.

I guess they just have to be happy with holy of bane weapons.


Honestly, if they wanted to put the brakes on Silver HB Bane weapons they should have made putting HB on Silver weapons require something really rare. Putting HB on other weapons isn't the issue they were worried about.

[Desonde]

And it's a prefix that most level 6-10 players have on a weapon or two. So they'll be looking to craft weapons to compete with those. Setting it up to be craftable for "endgame" players doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

If the marks drop reasonably enough, maybe this isn't an issue. But that would beg the question, "Why make it that difficult to begin with?" The only people this hurts are the casual gamers.

The power gamers either already have their HB shards crafted before the change or already have a character with 400 SF favor (or will quickly run one up and buy a few hundred pots so they never have to do it again.) Casual, non-raiding, non-greensteel crafters are back to looking at stuff that's out of reach.

I guess they just have to be happy with holy of bane weapons.


Honestly, if they wanted to put the brakes on Silver HB Bane weapons they should have made putting HB on Silver weapons require something really rare. Putting HB on other weapons isn't the issue they were worried about.

Or create shards that prevent the magic level of the item they are applied to from going over a certain point available to lower crafting levels (Could allow things like Holy Burst Warhammer of Lesser Undead Bane, but wouldn't allow Undead Bane because the min level would take it over it's limit).

[dkyle]

And it's a prefix that most level 6-10 players have on a weapon or two. So they'll be looking to craft weapons to compete with those.

They should make Holy of Pure Good.

Really, Holy Burst is lousy for twinking. A low level character is almost certainly better off with Holy, and the extra +2 enhancement bonus instead of the burst.

[Monkey_Archer]

They should make Holy of Pure Good.

Really, Holy Burst is lousy for twinking. A low level character is almost certainly better off with Holy, and the extra +2 enhancement bonus instead of the burst.

/QFT

Holy burst is really only useful for capped (or nearly capped) characters that want that little bit of extra burst damage... until you out level a +5 holy of pure good, you dont need holy burst.

Complaining that it requires a nearly capped character to get the favor for it doesn't make sense since you wont ever want to make a holy burst weapon until then anyway

[altrocks]

Because it's the absolute best prefix for a huge variety of weapons/monsters at the endgame.

Yes, but only in conjunction with the material type (cold iron or silver).

The real problem here is not the ability to make Greater Banes or Holy/HB. It's the fact that silver typed weapons aren't THAT hard to find randomly and craft the good stuff on to. The implementation of the material portion of crafting (or the non-implementation of it) is the true problem.

Unless they severely drop the rate of weapon drops that have a material property on it, that problem will not disappear. And since crafting material types was completely left out of the Cannith system, well... there's nothing else they can currently do to modify it.

If they would go back and rewrite the system a little so that making a silver/adamantine/cold iron/byeshk weapon required arcane levels and some rare collectibles/special crafting items, they could solve this issue of end-game beater creation without ever effecting the casual or low level crafters.

Honestly, how many times before vale do you NEED a metal type weapon? And how hard is it for those few mobs (vampires, mostly) to just find a random Metalline of PG or disruption weapon to beat on them with?

As an example of how it could work:

Silver Imbued Shard:
Arcane 75
150 Silver Bowls
1 Purified Eberron Dragonshard
1000 L. Arcane Essences
100 G. Arcane Essences

Cold Iron Imbued Shard:
Arcane 70
100 Polished Ore
1 Purified Eberron Dragonshard
900 L. Arcane Essences
90 G. Arcane Essences

Adamantine Imbued Shard:
Arcane 65
50 Adamantine Ore
1 Purified Eberron Dragonshard
800 L. Arcane Essences
80 G. Arcane Essences

Byeshk Imbued Shard:
Arcane 65
50 Planar Spoors
1 Purified Eberron Dragonshard
800 L. Arcane Essences
80 G. Arcane Essences


Levels and ingredient types/amounts can obviously be altered, but this is the part that needs to be controlled, not the ML 6 shards taking ridiculously high levels in crafting and rare drops to craft.

Just my 2 copper.

[Full_Bleed]

Holy burst is really only useful for capped (or nearly capped) characters that want that little bit of extra burst damage... until you out level a +5 holy of pure good, you dont need holy burst.

You guys are over simplifying and being a little disingenuous about when players start using burst weapons.

Many players move to burst weapons as soon as they take their improved critical feats. Especially with high threat range weapons. And I'm not going to spread sheet the damage, but I'm betting Rapier and Khopesh users would be ok using them before cap and before imp crit.

The bottom line is that it's not Holy Burst that's so over powered that it needs these heavy crafting requirements. It's only after combining it with Silver/Cold Iron that we have trouble.

Not tackling the actual issue is a little bit lazy.

[Monkey_Archer]

You guys are over simplifying and being a little disingenuous about when players start using burst weapons.

Many players move to burst weapons as soon as they take their improved critical feats. Especially with high threat range weapons. And I'm not going to spread sheet the damage, but I'm betting Rapier and Khopesh users would be ok using them before cap and before imp crit.

Sure, many players might use burst weapons at low levels, but 9 times out of 10 they would be wrong to do so.

Holy burst adds +4 min level over holy, so assuming you want to upgrade a basic holy khopesh your choices are: +2 enhancement, holy burst or a suffix like pure good or bane.

Assuming you do have improved crit range:

Pure good adds 3.325 (1d6*19hits/20 swings)
Holy burst adds 2.8 damage on average (4d6*4crits / 20 swings)
+2 enhancement adds 2.7 ((2*15hits) + (2*3*4crits) / 20 swings)

Adding a suffix is clearly the better option damage wise, and holy burst only averages 0.1 damage over a basic +2 enhancement. So unless you plan on never missing, +2 to hit is much better then 0.1 damage. If you're using a weapon with a lower crit profile, or don't have IC its not even close.

This is why low level characters should never use holy burst... enhancement bonuses are better then burst, and sufix damage is better then burst. So until you max out your enhancement and suffix, such as a +5 holy of pure good/bleed/bane (min level 15+) holy burst shouldn't even be considered.
The only case where I might want to consider holy burst would be on a character that almost never misses using a rapier/scimitar with improved crit and has some crit boosting effect (paladin with smites, kensai crit range, etc...) and even then I'd still rather have the +2 to hit.

[Bart_D]

It seems like the "cost" to crafting can be thought of as linear as the cost of shards is simply added together

For some items, the "value" of the item is at least multiplicative; holy/burst become *much* better combined with silver/cold iron

This means "cost" and "value" will be very difficult to keep within a reasonable range of each other. One way to do it is to make the cost to craft shards which combine well with other factors extremely high. An unfortunate side effect is that those shards will then be too costly to craft for other purposes.

It's probably too late to change, but can anyone think of a different way to handle it?

[Tsuarok]

Because it's the absolute best prefix for a huge variety of weapons/monsters at the endgame.

Yeah, but it's only a prefix. As many of the posts have stated, it's not that great by itself.

Save the over the top crafting level, favor, and material requirements for that which allows you to make truely powerful items -- the shards of potential.

[dkyle]

Yeah, but it's only a prefix. As many of the posts have stated, it's not that great by itself.

Save the over the top crafting level, favor, and material requirements for that which allows you to make truely powerful items -- the shards of potential.

How great it is by itself is only one part of its value, and a minor part at that.

We must consider how it can be combined with other shards.

And potential is only a very limited way of assessing an items overall power.

You can make very potent items at relatively low potential.

A +2 Holy Burst Silver of GEOB is only +10, and already something that would've been worth millions of plat on the right weapon before crafting.

So, should +10 cost a ton? Potential 10 is only CL 50, which is much much lower than Holy Burst or GEOB.

[Full_Bleed]

The only case where I might want to consider holy burst would be on a character that almost never misses using a rapier/scimitar with improved crit and has some crit boosting effect (paladin with smites, kensai crit range, etc...) and even then I'd still rather have the +2 to hit.

And this is the problem with these selective damage calcs. You've purposely left out other scenarios that don't fit your argument. Again, I (like 99% of most DDO players) am not going to sit down and spreadsheet calc every weapon set I have, against every AC I face with various equipment sets and feats.

Again, HB isn't an Epic Only prefix.

For starters, there are plenty of THF Paladin and Barbarian builds that can also gain from using HB a lot earlier on Falchions and/or Greataxes.

And even if you were right, and HB only makes sense in the Epic Only (lvl 20) category, then you're just making my case for me. It's NOT over-powered on the lower level weapons that many people would be using it on, so why require this super restrictive expense when the REAL PROBLEM is putting it on Silver/Cold Iron?

If it took the Purified Shard and Silver Flame Pot to put it on Silver or Cold Iron weapons, but it didn't require it for all other weapons, the baby wouldn't have been thrown out with the bathwater.

[dkyle]

And this is the problem with these selective damage calcs. You've purposely left out other scenarios that don't fit your argument. Again, I (like 99% of most DDO players) am not going to sit down and spreadsheet calc every weapon set I have, against every AC I face with various equipment sets and feats.

It's rarely useful for low level characters.

It's frequently useful for high level characters, especially capped characters.

Therefore, it makes more sense to cost it according to the characters most likely to want it, and who will use it at its most potency.

the REAL PROBLEM is putting it on Silver/Cold Iron?

This, however, I generally agree with. It's a problem I was concerned about long before Cannith crafting was even announced.

Silver and other metals simply shouldn't be as cheap as they are. Only HW present a real cost.

If it took the Purified Shard and Silver Flame Pot to put it on Silver or Cold Iron weapons, but it didn't require it for all other weapons, the baby wouldn't have been thrown out with the bathwater.

This makes sense, although I don't know how feasible it would be given the current system. And I don't think the current cost is unreasonable. Holy Burst is still the max DPS prefix even when DR isn't an issue.

On the other hand, the cost of leveling should be much lower.

[Tsuarok]

How great it is by itself is only one part of its value, and a minor part at that.

We must consider how it can be combined with other shards.

And potential is only a very limited way of assessing an items overall power.

You can make very potent items at relatively low potential.

A +2 Holy Burst Silver of GEOB is only +10, and already something that would've been worth millions of plat on the right weapon before crafting.

So, should +10 cost a ton? Potential 10 is only CL 50, which is much much lower than Holy Burst or GEOB.

If they are that potent, then yes, the CL and perhaps mats should be increased. That is in fact exactly my point. The individual shards are not that powerful and should be able to be created at an appropriate level.

The only thing that makes that item amazing is the silver, which is not impacting the cost of crafting at all. Not taking metal type into account in crafting costs was a mistake, imo.

[Tsuarok]

It's rarely useful for low level characters.

It's frequently useful for high level characters, especially capped characters.

Therefore, it makes more sense to cost it according to the characters most likely to want it, and who will use it at its most potency.

Just because someone might not find it ideal at lower levels does not mean they shouldn't be able to make it. The fact is that at level 6, ideal or not, I can run around swinging a +1 holy burst kama. But I can't craft one for another 12 levels.

It really does NOT make sense.

[dkyle]

If they are that potent, then yes, the CL and perhaps mats should be increased. That is in fact exactly my point. The individual shards are not that powerful and should be able to be created at an appropriate level.

The only thing that makes that item amazing is the silver, which is not impacting the cost of crafting at all. Not taking metal type into account in crafting costs was a mistake, imo.

I agree, but if we're changing the system to incorporate metals, we're looking at a much larger scope than just what a specific shard costs.

As the system is now, Holy Burst makes sense. I would like to see metals more sensibly handled, and if silver becomes much more costly, the current Holy Burst might not make sense anymore.

Just because someone might not find it ideal at lower levels does not mean they shouldn't be able to make it. The fact is that at level 6, ideal or not, I can run around swinging a +1 holy burst kama. But I can't craft one for another 12 levels..

The crafting system will never be perfect for all cases. Overpricing +1 Holy Burst Kamas seems like a pretty minor failure to me. Ultimately, it's the good options a crafting system provides that matter, not the terrible ones.

Furthermore, I'd like to know how you plan to get to CL 62 on a level 6, with no higher level alt.

The crafting system is not good at making level appropriate gear as you level your first character. This is nothing new. CL already ensures this. The Favor requirements barely change anything, in that regard.

If you do have a capped (or near cap) alt, then favor should just be a matter of time, and perhaps TP if you're not VIP.

[Tsuarok]

I agree, but if we're changing the system to incorporate metals, we're looking at a much larger scope than just what a specific shard costs.

As the system is now, Holy Burst makes sense. I would like to see metals more sensibly handled, and if silver becomes much more costly, the current Holy Burst might not make sense anymore.


The crafting system will never be perfect for all cases. Overpricing +1 Holy Burst Kamas seems like a pretty minor failure to me. Ultimately, it's the good options a crafting system provides that matter, not the terrible ones.

Ok... but imperfection is not something to strive for. If a failure is minor and unavoidable, ok, let it be. But if it is avoidable, there is no good reason to not change it. So maybe that change would require another look at how we handle metals. That would be a good thing. The crafting is in beta. I assume the devs would like us to provide feedback on how it should work. I don't understand why one would say, "yes, it's not ok, yes it could be better, but let's just let it go." There is too much complacency in this game.

Furthermore, I'd like to know how you plan to get to CL 62 on a level 6, with no higher level alt.

I can't. That is the problem I was talking about. In fact that was more or less the whole point of the posts you quoted. There is no way it should require that high a CL.

The crafting system is not good at making level appropriate gear as you level your first character. This is nothing new. CL already ensures this. The Favor requirements barely change anything, in that regard.

Again, this is the problem I'm talking about. If you read back a little bit you'll find what I'm talking about:

That is... distressing... Why in the name of god is a ml 6 shard requiring level 72? It would be difficult to get into the 30s at that level without someone supplying your mats.

A little digging has brought me:

/read by a crafter

In the interests of maximum constructiveness, can you clarify whether the intent is for an up and coming player to craft for themselves, or if you'd rather we approach this from the perspective of semi-retired toons helping out newer players, or, if it's to be something in the middle, what weight to give to one end or the other of the spectrum? It does rather make quite a bit of difference in terms of what notions not to bother bringing up.

I would like to see players (not necessarily characters) crafting for themselves.

... which suggests that the devs may be undecided on the point, but are leaning toward making level appropriate items impossible on a non-capped toon. I'd like to say that making crafting of limited value for a first character player is, imo, a mistake. If they invest in it heavily as they level, I feel they should be able to craft items that they will use, instead of leveling to 20, crafting tons of useless **** which is promptly destroyed, and then finally being able to be excited about what you can make.