Battle cleric

[PNellesen]

I'll just throw this out there...

19 Cleric / 1 Ranger

...

-Premier

Just curious, why Ranger instead of maybe Fighter? With Fighter, you'd get an extra feat, martial weapons, and Fighter Haste Boost (among other enhancements). Ranger does give Martial weapons Prof., along with 1 Favored Enemy, but I don't see a lot else you'd get.

(Don't get me wrong, I love Rangers, have 2 of them myself, but not sure how well a single level of Ranger helps a Cleric.)

[Premier]

Just curious, why Ranger instead of maybe Fighter? With Fighter, you'd get an extra feat, martial weapons, and Fighter Haste Boost (among other enhancements). Ranger does give Martial weapons Prof., along with 1 Favored Enemy, but I don't see a lot else you'd get.

(Don't get me wrong, I love Rangers, have 2 of them myself, but not sure how well a single level of Ranger helps a Cleric.)

With 1 Ranger / 19 Cleric for a "Battle Cleric":

- Only a 40sp loss compared to 80sp for 1 lvl of Fighter/Barb/Rogue
- Sprint Boost!!!
- Martial Weapon Prof like you mentioned
- 1 Favored Enemy like you mentioned plus a few favored enemy enhancements
- Opens up Jump skill (so does Fighter lvl though)
- Slightly more skill points at creation (Ranger lvl taken first)
- Bow strength for free (hey, a little extra ranged dmg never hurt)
- +2 Reflex save over 2 Fighter lvls

It's more a Cleric with full sp, DC's, and healing ability (if rolled with max wisdom) with a splash of melee capability.

I do feel that since the release of Favored Souls, most Battle Cleric builds are not as viable as they once were. I don't have one personally but it seems a WF strength based FvS swinging away with a Greatsword and dealing light dmg wins over alot of Battle Cleric builds in regards to damage output and survivability. Just an opinion though, one can create any character they want. Peace!

-Premier

[PNellesen]

With 1 Ranger / 19 Cleric for a "Battle Cleric":

- No loss of spell points by taking Ranger
- Sprint Boost!!!
- Martial Weapon Prof like you mentioned
- 1 Favored Enemy like you mentioned plus a few favored enemy enhancements
- Opens up Jump skill (so does Fighter lvl though)
- Slightly more skill points at creation (Ranger lvl taken first)
- Bow strength for free (hey, a little extra ranged dmg never hurt)
- +2 Reflex save over 2 Fighter lvls
...
-Premier

Hmmmmm...... very interesting. Give up an extra feat, and haste boost, but get +2 Reflex, Bow Strength, and no loss of SP. *Runs off to play with planner*

[Boneshank]

...HOrc is not too good for a BattleCleric. ...

LOL! I can solo anything in the game with mine, outside of the high-end raids (and the quests that 'require' a partner or two).
Again, LOL!

[Phemt81]

1.Concentration is a little low for a battle cleric, unless your running with quicken on 24/7, you are going to get interupted.
4. PA with no feats into THF or + to hit... me thinks you not hitting much.

I agree. Power attack is useless when you have low BAB, and don't expect to solve it all with divine power. Well, not at higher levels at least.

3. If u plan on being a full battle cleric, you might want to take quicken a little earlier than lvl 18.

I disagree. You can take quicken as last feat if you prefer, so your mass heals will land at proper time in shroud runs.

On my personal experience i never felt i needed quicken for my cleric, and now he is 15th level.

[unbongwah]

- No loss of spell points by taking Ranger

Are you sure about that? Rangers don't get spells until lvl 4.

[jaegarnel]

With 1 Ranger / 19 Cleric for a "Battle Cleric":

- No loss of spell points by taking Ranger
- Sprint Boost!!!
- Martial Weapon Prof like you mentioned
- 1 Favored Enemy like you mentioned plus a few favored enemy enhancements
- Opens up Jump skill (so does Fighter lvl though)
- Slightly more skill points at creation (Ranger lvl taken first)
- Bow strength for free (hey, a little extra ranged dmg never hurt)
- +2 Reflex save over 2 Fighter lvls

It's more a Cleric with full sp, DC's, and healing ability (if rolled with max wisdom) with a splash of melee capability.

I do feel that since the release of Favored Souls, most Battle Cleric builds are not as viable as they once were. I don't have one personally but it seems a WF strength based FvS swinging away with a Greatsword and dealing light dmg wins over alot of Battle Cleric builds in regards to damage output and survivability. Just an opinion though, one can create any character they want. Peace!

-Premier

I'm not sure 1 lvl of ranger would actually give sp.

Sprint boost is nice, sure, but you're probably going to have haste in a party and sprint boost will be situational, while haste boost is +15% dps in any hard fight.

1 favored enemy is only a small bonus, the bonus only gets good when you have several FV feats. Agains, it doesn't make up for losing haste boost.

More skill points is nice, but 4 more skill points from 1 lvl of ranger instead of 1 lvl of fighter isn't going to matter much.

Bow strength is nice, but considering the low dex on a cleric, you're not going to be able to hit anything with that bow. Plus you don't have manyshot, while you have some decent attack spells with low sp cost, so it's only situationally useful even if you managed to get a high enough tohit with bows.

Again, +2 reflex save is nice, but considering the low base reflex save on a cleric, that's unlikely to help you make your saves at high level.

Overall, the benefits of 1 lvl of ranger are nice, but nothing that justifies the loss of what 1 lvl of fighter provides (10 hp, haste boost, extra feat) imo.

[Premier]

Haste boost is a boost in dps but I think Sprint Boost is more fun. Going Dwarf and rocking a Min2 Dwarven Axe was great! With 1 or 2 lvls of Fighter, what other feat(s) are needed besides these? Maximize, Empower, Quicken, Empower Healing, Heighten, Toughness, Power Attack.

I can see the need for Imp. Crit if one doesn't have a Min2, but the synergy of a Min2 as a never-put-away weapon that can have exceptional wisdom for DC's and keen eliminates the need for Imp. Crit. I know crafting has added another element to consider when building characters, call me old-fashioned but a Min2 has been my friend for a long time.

I've dropped Extend on my FvS (previously a Cleric in another life) because I found myself turning it off when casting. The changes to Blade Barrier sealed the deal on dropping extend.

Again, I like my "Battle Clerics" to be more "Melee Capable" Clerics. I prefer Divine DC's and spell points over melee'ability. Good discussion.

-Premier

[Viren1]

First up, Thanks for all the input.

I rolled a Toon up using a Horc because, lets face it-if you want to hit things, horc is hard to go past.

went loosely off the build I posted, but gave it more cha and sacrificed some wis and a lil con.

So far it seems the ability to heal effeciently and effectively is gear based more so than stat based. As it stands atm I can keep a full party running and still top the kill count with a lil sp to spare. (Been using superior ardor clickies and leaving empower heals off)

So far I am really enjoying it though I wonder how it will stack up in mid-end game content.

[ShadowFlash]

I'm leveling a 17/2/1 cleric/monk/fighter right now...currently 13/2/1...A blast to play, capable healer, and capable melee when solo/duo/short-man. I'd only splash for evasion if going TWF...your reflex save probably won't be viable without the added DEX. Splashing 3 levels is not a big deal as light/alignment/healing will still cast as 19 (thanks to RSII) without "focus" items. I bought into the Divine Might ( III in my case ) is so totally worth it vs max STR....I'm currently DMII and I find it lacking. Granted, the extra turns from high CHA are nice, and I've got plenty without having to waste AP or feats, but the mechanics of divine might bother me a lot. It's not like I run out of turns to use, but knowing your party place is what makes the difference. If I'm in a RAID...my DPS is not needed...appreciated when off-healing duty, yes, but let's face it...still a cleric, and in this scenario Divine Punishment is preferred...so turns are primarily reserved for perpetual aura and bursts. When I duo/short-man/guild-run, casting time of DM vs. a one minute duration leaves me NOT using it in anything other than large no-risk fights...any risk, and you're better off saving the turns for bursts an filling in melee when needed. You already have to "power-up" with divine power and favor...then hage clickies...then charge...then fighter haste boost at last second. It may be cool (and it is fun...when I'm fully-buffed, it can get insane for a VERY short time) to "power up" for good DPS, while maintaining your healing role when your melee DPS is not essential, but I've found DM is an annoyance at best that just doesn't fit into the short-term buff line-up real well and in hindsight would prefer the extra to-hit and lower, but always-on, DPS the higher STR would provide.



The motivations of stat breakdown...

8 CHA to start...+2 via enhancements (qualifies for RS)...+2 tome...+6 item = 7 (recharging) turns without AP's. Not competing with DM, this will be enough, and you can spec in and out of more turns via AP's as needed (probably unnecessary)

14 WIS to start...technically only 13 +6 item is needed, but I like the extra cushion, and there's usually a stat point to spare. Some will say to dump WIS completely and take enhancements AND items to get to the needed 19. I personally don't like this, as the AP's on a battle-cleric are VERY tight. This saves the AP's, makes leveling easier, and still would let you spec higher WIS if you really wanted ( again probably unnecessary ) Full Smiting Lines make nimbus of light/searing light (seperate timers) and Divine Punishment your go-to spells...all no save-no SR...unless you're max caster, worrying about failed saved BB's is pointless...it will still be ALWAYS useful even with mobs making saves (mine crit often right now for 300ish wearing elfcrafted robes and the Sora-Kell set)

CON standard advice here + a little more...dead battle-cleric is the absolute worst thing that can happen to you. Worse in fact than a healbot death, as you will be blamed for using the "battle" portion of your build recklessly. Like it or not, the cleric symbol comes first, and judgements will be made...often.

DEX if 28-point dump it, and go THF...if 32-point, 15 MAX for +2 tome and FULL TWFing line...don't short yourself here under any circumstance...If yer gonna go TWF...go all the way.

INT dump...all points (or point. if without tomes) into concentration. You WILL run out of SP as a battle-cleric, and WILL have to emergency heal via scrolls or wands...if you're good, not often, but it beats wasting a pot on a PUG.

STR everything else ya got left, and all level up points...all items, tomes, end-game exc. +'s, +ATK items, anything ya can get...to-hit is god.



Feat Motivations and breakdown...

Power Attack...I'm on the fence here, but a good monk bonus feat (toughness being 1st priority)..I run with it on at least 50% of the time...more than I expected. When in "healing-mode" turn it off...when you have the SP to spare to keep DP/DV up...leave it on...

Empower Healing= RS req. and never turn it off....

Maximize= must have for divine punishment,searing light,blade barrier...AND makes your bursts god-like

Quicken= Must-have...pushed mine off until 18, which is do-able, but I'm really feeling the pinch without it...tough call to fit it earlier.

Empower= optional..I'm running without it..and think I'd find the meta-management too much to handle personally with melee inclinations, and it's not like you have SP to spare to go all-out offensive, and your "cures" will be boosted enough with Emp. Heal (+75%) alone, much less with maximize on/off. Learn to manage this, as limited SP can dry up your SP pool quick with maximize on.

Extend= I like it just for more manageable Divine Power/Favor buffs...very nice in mid levels, but you "could" swap it out at high levels, as your party buffs are all VERY long duration. Personally, I'm keeping it.

Heighten= No...not needed at all on a "battle-cleric"

THF/TWF= with a 2monk/1fighter split you can fit the full chain of either...do it...if yer going THF, then possibly ditching GTHF for shield mastery could be useful for RAID "healing-mode"...also, see next..

OTWF vs. Imp Crit= IMHO your toughest choice...you most likely only have room for one of them...I picked OTWF for the to-hit and made peace with using minII's at end-game. THFers have an easier choice, as I'd take Imp. Crit over GTHF or Shield Mastery.

Just my 2cp wall of text....

[Boneshank]

...DM is an annoyance at best that just doesn't fit into the short-term buff line-up real well and in hindsight would prefer the extra to-hit and lower, but always-on, DPS the higher STR would provide.

....

Agreed.
I love running around with an always-on STR of 40+ without having to worry about any short term DPS buff other than Haste Boost with my HOrc 18/2 Clr/Ftr.
I have PA on all the time (except some named epic mobs), and I don't even need DP/DF running for anything but the toughest end-game content.
Even without me putting much into CHA though, I still ended up with a 20 in it. Not enough APs to spare though to waste on anything unneeded like DM.

[unbongwah]

I'm confident there's no loss of spell points with 1 Ranger / 19 Cleric.

That isn't what the builder suggests:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
(20 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 220
Spell Points: 1408 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 5
Will: 19

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    14
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               18                    24
Charisma              8                     8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
(1 Ranger \ 19 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 220
Spell Points: 1371 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 7
Will: 18

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    14
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               18                    24
Charisma              8                     8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20

Only a 37 SP difference, but still a loss.

[JollySwagMan]

Also, someone suggested a lvl of barb. Do not do that. Get rage on an item, you'll still be able to cast. The last thing you want is people dying because you decided it was a good idea to use barb rage on a cleric.

1 level of Barb is not for Rage, so much as for a base run speed bonus + Sprint boosts. Turn related enhancements can also be used if one does Rage when healing a party, but yes, I would avoid using Barb rage/madstone etc. when grouping as a healer.

[darkniteyogi]

hi guys, need advice for my battle cleric..

currently 13 cl/1 ftr

Levels:Can i/should i take more melee levels? monk? paladin? ranger? fighter? etc

Feats: I currently have the THF line + Cleave + Power attack. Should i swap Cleave & Power attack for something more useful? What would be better? I thought Cleave was a good idea at the start, didn't realize it was slow. (Was thinking of Diablo 2's Cleave)

[jaegarnel]

Whether you should take more melee levels depends on what you want to do with your cleric.
If you just want to be able to melee decently, 1 level of fighter is quite enough.

More melee levels would mostly be useful for solo survivability; monk for evasion and good ac, paladin for better saves and LoH. 1 level of fighter would only be 1 extra feat and 1 strength, not worth losing 1 level of cleric imo.

I've never used cleave so I have no opinion on it, but you should only take power attack if you can reliably hit most mobs with it on.
If you don't have extend you should take it, it'll make your self buffs more useful.
You might also take maximize to boost blade barrier and your heals.
I assume you already have empower healing too for the radiant servant PrE, if not make it a priority, the PrE is that good.

[Premier]

That isn't what the builder suggests:

Only a 37 SP difference, but still a loss.

Maybe I've been buggin the entire time... I rolled the 1 Ranger about 2 years ago, maybe something changed because I'm totally sure I had the same spell points as a 20 cleric. I'd hate to be giving the wrong advices. There was a recent change with receiving more spell points for Pallys and Rangers at lvl 4 (one used to get like 4 sp or so at lvl 4), maybe that altered the 1 Ranger build... Thanks for the info.

[Mubjon]

Maybe I've been buggin the entire time... I rolled the 1 Ranger about 2 years ago, maybe something changed because I'm totally sure I had the same spell points as a 20 cleric. I'd hate to be giving the wrong advices. There was a recent change with receiving more spell points for Pallys and Rangers at lvl 4 (one used to get like 4 sp or so at lvl 4), maybe that altered the 1 Ranger build... Thanks for the info.

According to the planner with 18 wisdom, 1 ranger and 19 cleric I would have 1257 SP at level 20 (no equipment, no tomes, no enhancements etc, just straight up what we get from levels) and a level 20 pure cleric would have 1321.

It should be noted that the fighter level (and the other melee and rogue) has him at 1217 SP, while a wizard would have him at 1267, a sorc and FVs level would be 1317, Basically by selecting a level of sorc or FVS it would allow the player to cast one more heal.

[Premier]

According to the planner with 18 wisdom, 1 ranger and 19 cleric I would have 1257 SP at level 20 (no equipment, no tomes, no enhancements etc, just straight up what we get from levels) and a level 20 pure cleric would have 1321.

It should be noted that the fighter level (and the other melee and rogue) has him at 1217 SP, while a wizard would have him at 1267, a sorc and FVs level would be 1317, Basically by selecting a level of sorc or FVS it would allow the player to cast one more heal.

Solid detective work, thanks for clearing that up. I'll edit my posts to reflect taking 1 Ranger level yields less of a decrease in spell points compared to taking 1 Fighter/Barb/Rogue (non-divine melee) level. Pally probably gets the same spell points as Ranger.

Still not a bad deal!

[PNellesen]

According to the planner with 18 wisdom, 1 ranger and 19 cleric I would have 1257 SP at level 20 (no equipment, no tomes, no enhancements etc, just straight up what we get from levels) and a level 20 pure cleric would have 1321.

It should be noted that the fighter level (and the other melee and rogue) has him at 1217 SP, while a wizard would have him at 1267, a sorc and FVs level would be 1317, Basically by selecting a level of sorc or FVS it would allow the player to cast one more heal.

Thanks for the info. So 40 more SP if you go Ranger instead of Fighter, but you lose a feat. But gain a Favored Enemy (Evil Outsider? Because Clerics already pwn Undead.)

Very interesting, and I've been wanting to try something different when my Cleric TRs anyway (he's 19C/1F, so "been there, done that" ). Much to ponder...

[Mellkor]

...I do feel that since the release of Favored Souls, most Battle Cleric builds are not as viable as they once were. I don't have one personally but it seems a WF strength based FvS swinging away with a Greatsword and dealing light dmg wins over alot of Battle Cleric builds in regards to damage output and survivability. Just an opinion though, one can create any character they want. Peace!

-Premier

This has been my experience having played both extensively. If you really want a "battle" cleric, then I would advise considering a WF FvS Lord of Blades. The closest cleric build I could get to being as effective as my WF FvS was a 17 cleric / 2 paladin /1 fighter build I ran with for a while. Mass heal + aura + max healing amp with 45+ to all saves, +51 to hit first swing, all while on the front lines was a very potent combo on this guy. (I had aura doing 63 a tick to myself! (non crit!!)). In the end, tho, the WF FvS's DR, inherent immunities, better melee abilities, and WINGS worked better for me.

-JR