Worried about my wizard's viability

[Maelodic]

Let's get something strait first before I write anything else, and that is that my wizard does really really well at the level he's at, which is 11. He leads in kill count, always. Doesn't matter what it is. Tempest spine I usually get 50% of the kills, even with other casters in the party. The healing is also incredibly helpful and has saved the party from wipes countless times, and I am usually the last one standing.

That being said:

The original plan of my wizard was to make an SLA-based evoker with great heals. I've never built high levels so I do not know if SF: Enchant and GSF: Enchant will help more than spell pen for crowd control, but I'm pretty sure Ima suck at it. The best crowd control is death anyway.

Normally it would be easier to just roll a warforged sorc, but the things that irk me about warforged is it takes SP to heal myself, which I do not like because I'd rather use the SP to kill things, and it's a warforged. I have a heavy bias toward halflings.

So I landed on an evocation archmage, with more than enough feats to get all the metas I wanted and still be able to heal and blow things up effectively.

Things were going really really well, until U9 hit, and I realized that even though I was wiping everything out with my sexyness and surprising people with 150 point heals, going evocation would be much worse than planned due to the really really dumb nerfs, the chain missiles have an 8 second cooldown. 8 Seconds. Count to 8 real quick, and just think how many times you could die in those seconds, even if spamming the non-aoe SLAs. Arcane blast is 6 seconds. Cyconic will be fine, but the aoe isn't nearly as reliable.

So essentially my question is:
Is going evoker going to totally destroy my ability to continue to kill everything ever? I'm basically a mini-sorc that can buff more and heal more, but will I ever become a liability? Will the damage stop and then I'm left with nothing, or will I still be a solid caster?


Anyway, feats:
1 Least dragonmark of healing
1 Maximise
3 Empower
5 Mental Toughness
6 Spell Focus: Evocation
9 Lesser Dragonmark of Healing
10 Heighten
12 Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
15 Greater Dragonmark of Healing
15 Spell focus: Enchantment
18 Toughness
20 Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment

The bold ones I have already.

Any amount of help... or telling me it will be fine... would be great.

[junkmail90210]

Don't be worried, it'll be fine. It won't be easy but it'll be fine. I'm basing that on the premise that it really doesn't matter how bad your build is. The way I look at it, if you took the best player and dumped them in a gimped toon, you'd have a decent player. Your playing style/gear/knowledge of quests etc can overcome a LOT.

As to your build, personally I don't get the dragonmark thing. That's a lot of feats for a couple heals. There are less costly ways to heal. Your toon, your choice. I'd exchange them for sfNecro, gsfNecro and toughness. Which will let you get Pale Master, which has self healing. You don't have to take it, but it would allow you to at least sample the Dark Side for 3 days before you switch back. Even if you don't do the PM thing, you still get the DCs for necro spells, which are more usefull imho. Necromancy would give you enervation which is always nice to have to 'soften' up so the instakills hit better.

For the Evocation SF and GSF, I would exchange those for spell pen and greater spell pen. The evocations SF and GSF seem a total waste to me, cooldowns are too long Cyclonic not worth it. And the points for DCs are wasted as your endgame spell selection doesn't need DC for dmg. If you dislike wasting sp on healing yourself you will hate wasting sp to cast and recast the same spell over and over as you see that blue SR shield flare up.

As a note; you don't 'buff more' than other toons, you buff less as you don't have extend.

Also kill count doesn't count for much and isn't a marker of your abilities, you should be wondering; why have you had to heal often, been in countless near-wipes, and am the last one standing.

That all being said, I'll reiterate, you can make it work. If you have fun and like your build, play it. But be good enough to know your role, your strengths and weaknesses, so that others aren't carrying you.

[Diib]

I made a very similar build. People really under-rate going with the healing dragonmarks on a wizard. Typically you have the feats to spare, it allows you to heal other people, AND your heals don't take sp, giving you an advantage over wf casters that must bleed their sp pools for heals. It has been an experiment that worked great.

As for the SLAs, well, you simply can't kill everything with slas. At best, after the nerf, you are forced to cycle in slas with other real spells. chain missle, ice storm, magic missle, chain missle, etc. arcane blast isn't worth it any way you slice it. Arcane bolt I found useful for the mere 25 max sp cost and only 1 ap.

Now, my build also had past life:wizard, so I was getting additional force slas, so moving out of evo focus when they nerfed it wasn't an option. If I didn't have past life: wizard, with a similar build I would be more likely to take sf/gsf necro, take no spell likes, and just max my sp (this is kind of what the dragonmarks let you do anyway). Its not necessarily a better build than going necromancer... but you don't have to worry about the weaknesses of being in form, anyone can heal you, you can heal others, AND you still end up with a lot of sp but higher necro dcs than a similar sorc.

Personally, I had pl:wiz, so I stayed evocation. The PL mms are always better than the sla mm, but you can run the build for forever. With a torc and a conc/opp item you can pretty much go for any length of time without pots or shrines. But the key at higher levels was to move away from dps against high hp mobs, and switch into necro. I took necro as my second chain, and circle of death and finger are still money while leveling with this build.

The build has its place, and its not on the bottom of the heap by any means. But you have to use your sp pool for a lot more than buffing and slas.

Hope that helps.

[Maelodic]

I made a very similar build. People really under-rate going with the healing dragonmarks on a wizard. Typically you have the feats to spare, it allows you to heal other people, AND your heals don't take sp, giving you an advantage over wf casters that must bleed their sp pools for heals. It has been an experiment that worked great.

Thank you. A lot of people overlook that, and dragonmarks are not something in this build I regret, it's the evocation focus.

As for the SLAs, well, you simply can't kill everything with slas. At best, after the nerf, you are forced to cycle in slas with other real spells. chain missle, ice storm, magic missle, chain missle, etc. arcane blast isn't worth it any way you slice it. Arcane bolt I found useful for the mere 25 max sp cost and only 1 ap.

Now, my build also had past life:wizard, so I was getting additional force slas, so moving out of evo focus when they nerfed it wasn't an option. If I didn't have past life: wizard, with a similar build I would be more likely to take sf/gsf necro, take no spell likes, and just max my sp (this is kind of what the dragonmarks let you do anyway). Its not necessarily a better build than going necromancer... but you don't have to worry about the weaknesses of being in form, anyone can heal you, you can heal others, AND you still end up with a lot of sp but higher necro dcs than a similar sorc.

Personally, I had pl:wiz, so I stayed evocation. The PL mms are always better than the sla mm, but you can run the build for forever. With a torc and a conc/opp item you can pretty much go for any length of time without pots or shrines. But the key at higher levels was to move away from dps against high hp mobs, and switch into necro. I took necro as my second chain, and circle of death and finger are still money while leveling with this build.

The build has its place, and its not on the bottom of the heap by any means. But you have to use your sp pool for a lot more than buffing and slas.

Hope that helps.

I do use my SP pool for something else, and it's usually just an AoE dot that's been max/emp to put on whilst I kill things. It's easy to afford a max/empowered firewall or ice storm when your single target damage is barely any sp at all.

I want to take this character to 20, and I want it to be the first one I do so, because it's my current highest. I just read that my damage will shine until level 12, and then it'll start to decline, so I need to focus on insta-kills and crowd control.

Also, yes, I can nuke without Evocation. But you know how first builds are. So let's see if I can replan this to work for everything I want it to be. Bolds are already gotten, and basically set in stone.

1 Least dragonmark of healing
1 Maximise
3 Empower
5 Mental Toughness
6 Spell Focus: Evocation (Swap for SF: Necromancy)
9 Lesser Dragonmark of Healing
10 Heighten
12 Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
15 Greater Dragonmark of Healing
15 Spell Penetration
18 Toughness
20 Greater Spell Penetration

Would this be better? Or do I need more spell pen?

ALSO if I were to switch out the Necromancy feat, should I use the free feat swap or go with the money one, I'm new to the game, but I do have about 300k saved up.


Also, as a side note, I do not like pale master at all. It's ugly and you're undead. Also since I already have dragonmarks, they would be rendered useless.

[Diib]

For a first life build, that will probably work better. For sure use the free feat swap. And your spell pen looks fine.

Good luck.

[Maelodic]

For a first life build, that will probably work better. For sure use the free feat swap. And your spell pen looks fine.

Good luck.

Since I have the money to, and I'll never be as young as I am right now, should I switch out feats and go PM? Or keep dragonmarks for out of form quick healing and go PM? Would that be better?

[Diib]

Define better? What is your goal. The incredible thing about this game is that with experience every build has things that it can do.

What do you want?

A Pale master will have close or slightly higher necro dcs than an necro based am, and can heal himself while in form. It is the more popular choice. But with your build you have non sp based healing that can be used to heal yourself and others. You are not comparing apples to apples. Are you simply concerned with kill count? Are you interested in soloing? Epics?

Pale master is different than your build. If you are going to make a pale master, there is no reason to be a halfling, I would delete the char and re-roll a human, half elf or warforged.

If you are going to have the dragonmarks, palemaster is a poor choice... you would have two incompatible ways of healing, meaning that you would either be wasting a major feature of your prestige, or three feats. If you want to go palemaster, halfling is a poor choice, halflings offer no bonuses that are useful to a palemaster that can not be duplicated and surpassed by other races.


What are you really after??

[vVAnjilaVv]

Just my opinion here......but I would have to say leave the healing to the healers.

You bring far far far more to a group by being a great arcane....not an extremely watered down CLR/FvS.

I think you are hurting yourself with those three Dragonmarks.

If your worried about losing some power on you Evocation DC's....don't be...just keep Solid Fog loaded....-5 to reflex saves with no save.

End game requires a class to bring everything they can for THEIR class.....I know it's nice to have those life saving heals.....but simply put...you're not a healer.

Another thing to keep in mind.......gameplay where you are now and what it will be at end game is utterly and unavoidably profoundly different.

Also...and again I am not saying don't play an Evocator if it's what you enjoy......but Sorcs are way better suited for Evocation.....the true power of a Wizard is versatility and the ability with all the feats they have to really help the DC's of their spells. Evocation is a lesser choice for a Wiz a lot of times because reflex saves are generally low and even if not your still doing half damage....if a non Damage DC spell does not land your getting nothing out of it at all.

[Maelodic]

Define better? What is your goal. The incredible thing about this game is that with experience every build has things that it can do.

What do you want?

A Pale master will have close or slightly higher necro dcs than an necro based am, and can heal himself while in form. It is the more popular choice. But with your build you have non sp based healing that can be used to heal yourself and others. You are not comparing apples to apples. Are you simply concerned with kill count? Are you interested in soloing? Epics?

Pale master is different than your build. If you are going to make a pale master, there is no reason to be a halfling, I would delete the char and re-roll a human, half elf or warforged.

If you are going to have the dragonmarks, palemaster is a poor choice... you would have two incompatible ways of healing, meaning that you would either be wasting a major feature of your prestige, or three feats. If you want to go palemaster, halfling is a poor choice, halflings offer no bonuses that are useful to a palemaster that can not be duplicated and surpassed by other races.


What are you really after??

I always roll halflings. The sole fact that they bring nothing to the table doesn't concern me, it's just a bit of flair for a minor flaw.

I want to be totally self sufficient with a ranged way to kill single enemies really well, and a doesn't-matter-if-it's-ranged to own aoe things. Evocation did really well with single enemies, and I could blast them while jumping. I just want to blow things up and be able to heal myself from low to high levels. I enjoyed how the evocation archmage played, and after switching spell focus, I enjoy the necromancer archmage as well. But if I can do similar things as a pale master, and it is higher dps/better insta-kills/better healing, I might as well switch to that.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I always roll halflings. The sole fact that they bring nothing to the table doesn't concern me, it's just a bit of flair for a minor flaw.

I want to be totally self sufficient with a ranged way to kill single enemies really well, and a doesn't-matter-if-it's-ranged to own aoe things. Evocation did really well with single enemies, and I could blast them while jumping. I just want to blow things up and be able to heal myself from low to high levels. I enjoyed how the evocation archmage played, and after switching spell focus, I enjoy the necromancer archmage as well. But if I can do similar things as a pale master, and it is higher dps/better insta-kills/better healing, I might as well switch to that.

PM's are absolutely great for self-sufficiency.....and with the necro SLA's and good necromancy amplification they can really reserve spell points for crucial situations.

I had 15 capped toons and was tired of the madness of trying to keep up with all of them and realized playing different classes DID NOT help when I got bored with the game...playing different games did

That being said...the character I decided to make my main was easily my Drow PM.

Oh and don't worry about undead dungeons...just charm everything or revert to Wall of Fire.......still a great spell for most Undead quests. I'd also suggest Augment Summoning...do not underestimate the power of this feat.

[Maelodic]

PM's are absolutely great for self-sufficiency.....and with the necro SLA's and good necromancy amplification they can really reserve spell points for crucial situations.

I had 15 capped toons and was tired of the madness of trying to keep up with all of them and realized playing different classes DID NOT help when I got bored with the game...playing different games did

That being said...the character I decided to make my main was easily my Drow PM.

Oh and don't worry about undead dungeons...just charm everything or revert to Wall of Fire.......still a great spell for most Undead quests. I'd also suggest Augment Summoning...do not underestimate the power of this feat.

Can they still make everything ever go boom?

[Diib]

Well, you can achieve what you want either way.

Look, its up to you.

My dragonmarked archmage was incredibly popular, and is probably my most requested char by my guildmates when others are forming guild runs. I packed ~27000 points of healing between shrines, could kill anything I could look at, and have even simultaneously both been the healer and top of the kill count in guild raids and epics. No palemaster can do that.

A palemaster needs a different gear loadout. You come with some immunities, but can also be insta-killed by clerics if you are in form while leveling. A palemaster is never going to heal anyone but themselves.... unless you have a high cha and good umd score. A palemaster is going to have either the same or 1 better dc on necro based spells than you. I wouldn't call that dc difference night and day between being a killing machine or not.

But palemasters get easy healing. If you roll a human wizard, palemaster's self healing is a clear advantage over archmage. If you are a halfling with dragonmarks, its not so easy a choice. Again, its three feats.... some builds can spare that, some can't. The difference is pure self healing, vs. being able to be healed by others, as well as being able to heal others.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Can they still make everything ever go boom?

Again...I would have to say if making everything go boom is what really motivates you.....then roll a Sorc Savant.

You will easily be able to use cure wands and heal scrolls by the time you reach cap because of what should be a pretty high UMD.

Tho your non Evo DC spells will be a lot more limited than you wizards almost to the point of not bothering with them.

Looking back at Diib's post......I'm sure you could stay with your Halfling AM and be just fine......really there is a lot more for you to acquire as far as feats, enhancements, gear, and just general gameplay experience.

I have made my fair share of builds that no matter what at some point in the leveling process really made me question my build choices but they for the most part all worked out fine by the time I hit cap.

There are going to be gaps and quests where you will be the star and where you will not be the star......this is something you must accept unless you choose to only solo.

That being said...the build you have which makes you happy now will be far from anything resembling a gimp......if it's what you prefer you will do fine I am sure....I think the real problem here might be that you need to really be content that the power will shift no matter what build you make...only unless you overtake development of the game will you overcome this.

[Maelodic]

Well, you can achieve what you want either way.

Look, its up to you.

My dragonmarked archmage was incredibly popular, and is probably my most requested char by my guildmates when others are forming guild runs. I packed ~27000 points of healing between shrines, could kill anything I could look at, and have even simultaneously both been the healer and top of the kill count in guild raids and epics. No palemaster can do that.

A palemaster needs a different gear loadout. You come with some immunities, but can also be insta-killed by clerics if you are in form while leveling. A palemaster is never going to heal anyone but themselves.... unless you have a high cha and good umd score. A palemaster is going to have either the same or 1 better dc on necro based spells than you. I wouldn't call that dc difference night and day between being a killing machine or not.

But palemasters get easy healing. If you roll a human wizard, palemaster's self healing is a clear advantage over archmage. If you are a halfling with dragonmarks, its not so easy a choice. Again, its three feats.... some builds can spare that, some can't. The difference is pure self healing, vs. being able to be healed by others, as well as being able to heal others.

Again...I would have to say if making everything go boom is what really motivates you.....then roll a Sorc Savant.

You will easily be able to use cure wands and heal scrolls by the time you reach cap because of what should be a pretty high UMD.

Tho your non Evo DC spells will be a lot more limited than you wizards almost to the point of not bothering with them.

Looking back at Diib's post......I'm sure you could stay with your Halfling AM and be just fine......really there is a lot more for you to acquire as far as feats, enhancements, gear, and just general gameplay experience.

I have made my fair share of builds that no matter what at some point in the leveling process really made me question my build choices but they for the most part all worked out fine by the time I hit cap.

There are going to be gaps and quests where you will be the star and where you will not be the star......this is something you must accept unless you choose to only solo.

That being said...the build you have which makes you happy now will be far from anything resembling a gimp......if it's what you prefer you will do fine I am sure....I think the real problem here might be that you need to really be content that the power will shift no matter what build you make...only unless you overtake development of the game will you overcome this.

Thanks for the advice guys. I think I will stay with what keeps me happy. The PM playstyle is different than my tastes, and what I'm doing is fine. I switched to necromancy, and to my great surprise, it plays just about the same as the evocation wizard, so that's good. Screw the nay-sayers, I got this.

[xtchizobr]

I made a very similar build. People really under-rate going with the healing dragonmarks on a wizard. Typically you have the feats to spare, it allows you to heal other people, AND your heals don't take sp, giving you an advantage over wf casters that must bleed their sp pools for heals. It has been an experiment that worked great.

i can't help but facepalm.

as if Reconstruct scrolls/wands didn't exist... and, seriously? how many SPs does Reconstruct actually cost to cast? it will definitely heal you to full, and you wouldn't even need to cast it more often than, what, once in a dungeon unless you're being dumb? so, "bleed their sp pools"?? what a load of horse ****. please.

the plain fact of the matter is that you are dumping HUGE amounts of SP on nukes. healing yourself wouldn't even cost you 5% of your total pool, and wands/scrolls are positively cheap to a level 16+ character (even cheaper to a wizard who can farm Taps or scrolls easy mode). dragon marks are a really horrible waste of feat slots. period.

if you want to heal other people as an arcanist, then roll a wiz/rog and get your UMD up.

you should be laughed at frequently for picking a dragonmark for one or two weak Heals per rest instead of important feats that actually help you be a wizard.

[Maelodic]

i can't help but facepalm.

as if Reconstruct scrolls/wands didn't exist... and, seriously? how many SPs does Reconstruct actually cost to cast? it will definitely heal you to full, and you wouldn't even need to cast it more often than, what, once in a dungeon unless you're being dumb? so, "bleed their sp pools"?? what a load of horse ****. please.

the plain fact of the matter is that you are dumping HUGE amounts of SP on nukes. healing yourself wouldn't even cost you 5% of your total pool, and wands/scrolls are positively cheap to a level 16+ character (even cheaper to a wizard who can farm Taps or scrolls easy mode). dragon marks are a really horrible waste of feat slots. period.

if you want to heal other people as an arcanist, then roll a wiz/rog and get your UMD up.

you should be laughed at frequently for picking a dragonmark for one or two weak Heals per rest instead of important feats that actually help you be a wizard.

This is for a sorc but you get it.



With ardor, those are my numbers. That's without ANY healing amp. I don't know about you, but the ability to have that much healing per rest shrine with no-fail and quickened heals is pretty neat.

[Maelodic]

Update:

Yeah. So. I totally played on my brother's pale master, wraith specifically. I have decided to turn over to the dark side. Screw the world, that was awesome. Sheer power right there.

[FrozenNova]

From the looks of this thread you've never played a sorceror.
You don't even know the meaning of 'nuke' until you've played a capped savant.

Nonetheless, on my pure wizards, I certainly don't have three/four spare feats lying around.
If you're going to take the drop in capacity by not going human or drow, you might as well at least go warforged.

[xtchizobr]

This is for a sorc but you get it.



With ardor, those are my numbers. That's without ANY healing amp. I don't know about you, but the ability to have that much healing per rest shrine with no-fail and quickened heals is pretty neat.

you can fill your inventory up with Heal scrolls or Recon scrolls and that would total to vastly higher numbers.

it's pretty pathetic, though, that you would attempt something like that. total number of HP potentially healed does not tell the whole story, nor, indeed, even a significant fraction of it.

did you know that turning on your auto-attack and walking away from the computer will allow you to generate an infinite amount of damage over an infinite time period?

[vVAnjilaVv]

Really you can make a lot of different builds, and have fun with them.

The question is when you are in quest/raids......were the icon next to your name really needs to be optimal to what your class is looked at for in a role.

Nobody every looks at a Wizard icon and expects healing...ever...repairs yes...healing....no.

Three feats is very steep when you think of what you can add to a group by taking more useful casting feats.

That being said...make what you want....but know that it may cost you some party accepts.....but that also has a lot to do with how good of a player and how well geared you are as well. It's a delicate balance.

You're greatest advantage is if you stay pure wizard people will not know what your up to until you actually play with them...at which time you are allowed an opportunity to prove yourself.

There are a lot of techniques and strategies in DDO...a good party can adjust as long as they are not severely gimped....a mediocre party just does what everyone else is doing....the latter will always be much more hesitant to taking "experimental" builds.