Dragonmarked Halfling Tank (18 Fighter/2 Paladin)

[Morrodenya]

I recently posted a thread about tanking drow. Now after some thinking and delibiration I came up with another build idea. Before I post the build so you lovely people could examine and judge it there are a few things I would like to remark up front.

1. This is somewhat of a flavor build. This does not mean I don't want it as good as possible within its own idea but it is something to keep in mind when reviewing
2. Idea behind the build:
- Race selection: Halfling because +1 AC, better saves, access to healing dragonmark
- Class selection and split: Started out from a full fighter idea but added two levels of paladin for: +1 AC, better saves, Lay on Hand
- Weapon choice: Bastard Sword for glancing blows while tanking and synergy with two handed weapons because it is a slashing weapon so while going two handed can benefit from the fighter weapon specialization and focus enhancements while wielding a slashing two hander
3. 28 point build and only used +1 tomes. I am a quite new player to DDO so dont have 32 point build nor the in game money for +2 Tomes. It is also a build that is somewhat based on Tihocan's Revised Path builds (more precise his stalwart soldier one) although only roughly.
4. Feat selection mainly Tank oriented with full line of dragonmarks and full line of Two Handed Fighting on top

So all in all, went once again for a tank build which should have the possibility to switch to Two Hand fighting when the situation allows it (thrash mobs during quests for example). Before I get a lot of posts about AC being useless at the highest levels and that tanks lose a lot of damage ... I am aware of this, I accept this and in my stubornness (maybe I should make a dwarf lol) still intend to make the next char I roll an AC Intimi-Tank oriented build.

IF you are still here ... thanks to endure my wall of text and here is the build ...

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Dragonmarked AC Tank
Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Female
(18 Fighter \ 2 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 12
Will: 12

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             15                    24
Dexterity            12                    14
Constitution         13                    14
Intelligence         12                    13
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             12                    14

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               1                     8
Bluff                 1                     2
Concentration         1                     2
Diplomacy             1                     2
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                1                     2
Heal                 -1                     1
Hide                  1                     6
Intimidate            5                    35
Jump                  3                    17
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         1                     4
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     1
Search                1                     1
Spot                 -1                    -1
Swim                  2                     7
Tumble                2                     3
Use Magic Device      3                    16

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use I
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 5 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Healing
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost II
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II


Level 7 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion II


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) II


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Healing
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III


Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense II


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use III
Enhancement: Fighter Bastard Sword Specialization I


Level 17 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness IV


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use IV


Level 19 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender III
Enhancement: Fighter Bastard Sword Specialization II

[gwenniez]

call me grazy but if you wanna focus on a healing tank..

why not drop the thf line entirely and take emp and maximise
this will greatly increase your healing power with dragonmarks,
at basicly the same costs by 300% healing added. 100% max
and 50% emp.

I think its a good idea tho making a halfling tank now that intim
is less usefull as before halflign got a lot going for them.

[Morrodenya]

call me grazy but if you wanna focus on a healing tank..

why not drop the thf line entirely and take emp and maximise
this will greatly increase your healing power with dragonmarks,
at basicly the same costs by 300% healing added. 100% max
and 50% emp.

I think its a good idea tho making a halfling tank now that intim
is less usefull as before halflign got a lot going for them.

Because with only two levels of paladin I did not have access to that, one could always increase the levels of paladin I guess to 6 or something like that but that would mean losing feats and as it is now I used up all my feats without being able to take a double toughness (which could have been handy for more hp but one cannot have it all I guess ). Could easily drop an enhancement somewhere and take paladin devotion 1 for 10% extra heals from those marks of course or equip an item that improves their healing effect

[TheDearLeader]

Paladin 2 for:

Better Saves
+1 AC
Lay on Hands

Is what you listed in your OP.

From someone w/a capped TR Fighter *and* TR Paladin:

1 AC isn't going mean you much.
Lay On Hands, being that it is based on your Charisma *and* the amount of levels you have in the Paladin Class, suuuucks at level 2. Like really, not worth it to use @ 20.

So the only think you're really looking at is bonus to saves.

May I suggest either:

Rogue for Evasion, and maybe some skills (Open Lock/UMD)
Monk for Evasion, possibility of HW combat, and extra feats.

[wyndzen]

Paladin 2 for:

Better Saves
+1 AC
Lay on Hands

Is what you listed in your OP.

From someone w/a capped TR Fighter *and* TR Paladin:

1 AC isn't going mean you much.
Lay On Hands, being that it is based on your Charisma *and* the amount of levels you have in the Paladin Class, suuuucks at level 2. Like really, not worth it to use @ 20.

So the only think you're really looking at is bonus to saves.

May I suggest either:

Rogue for Evasion, and maybe some skills (Open Lock/UMD)
Monk for Evasion, possibility of HW combat, and extra feats.

Strongly agree with the Monk suggestion, and let me add that it gives you FIVE more saves (4 more fort) if you go into water stance, compared with a pure ftr. Then two more feats, which could be 44 hps or whatever else. You still get the 1 ac for lvl 2 monk centered, if you dont use armor or shield (and of course wis ac if you go that route). You also get 5 hps for 1 action pt for way of tortoise.

(I realize that you never suggested pure ftr, and suggested 2 pal instead, just explained that for illustration.)

I might be missing something, but these days, if you are going to splash 2 lvls with a ftr, Monk is almost certainly superior to anything else. Note that you could add in a good stun fist dc if you want, around 45 for fist if you are a stalwart defender.

[Morrodenya]

What you two clearly miss is the fact that i dont have monk so yes monk might be better maybe but i dont have monk. For the rest it is an extra ... +1 AC from Pala, +1 AC from Race = +2 AC without getting an item, bonus on saves from both race and paladin is also win/win

Dont forget even at level 20 as long as you have enough AC to beat the monsters to hit 1 AC still means 5% less being hit.

For the rest that lay on hands is just an extra heal above all the dragonmarks, and is insta. Also Cha 14 base and a + 6 Item (easy to get at lvl 20 i might think) = 20 Cha or a +5 ... means 10 base + 2 from levels multiplied with 5 = 60 HP insta heal. Is it awe inspiring? No, will it help ... I think so.

About taking rogue for evasion ... you seem to forget that an AC tank is not gonna wear light armor so evasion helps nothing. Could take rogue for extra UMD skills and that is surely an option but one i did not take.

[unbongwah]

Oddly enough, I did a build sorta like this once, too, and along the same lines of the drow rogue / pally / ftr I posted for you earlier:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Female
(12 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 2 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 324
Spell Points: 70 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 13
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         10                    12
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             12                    14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               4                     8
Bluff                 1                     4
Concentration         2                     4
Diplomacy             1                     4
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                5                     6
Heal                 -1                     1
Hide                  0                     4
Intimidate            5                    27
Jump                  7                    13
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         0                     2
Open Lock             4                     4
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     1
Search                0                     1
Spot                  3                     3
Swim                  3                     7
Tumble                4                     4
Use Magic Device      5                    25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Healing


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Healing
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use I
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use II
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use III
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use IV
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Kensei Greatsword Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Greatsword Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Greatsword Specialization I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I

[TheDearLeader]

What you two clearly miss is the fact that i dont have monk so yes monk might be better maybe but i dont have monk. For the rest it is an extra ... +1 AC from Pala, +1 AC from Race = +2 AC without getting an item, bonus on saves from both race and paladin is also win/win

Dont forget even at level 20 as long as you have enough AC to beat the monsters to hit 1 AC still means 5% less being hit.

For the rest that lay on hands is just an extra heal above all the dragonmarks, and is insta. Also Cha 14 base and a + 6 Item (easy to get at lvl 20 i might think) = 20 Cha or a +5 ... means 10 base + 2 from levels multiplied with 5 = 60 HP insta heal. Is it awe inspiring? No, will it help ... I think so.

About taking rogue for evasion ... you seem to forget that an AC tank is not gonna wear light armor so evasion helps nothing. Could take rogue for extra UMD skills and that is surely an option but one i did not take.

You didn't implicitly say "I don't have monk" anywhere. VIPs can use Monk, but don't immediately have access to 32-point build.

Aside from that... Re:Rogue, AC, Light Armor.

You do realize that AC in this game is less about what's on your torso, and more about how many different bonuses you can get to stack @ once with finding/grinding gear, yeah? Some of the highest ACs in the game are reached while in cloth/light armor.

Does Mith. Full Plate rock the lower levels? Yeah. @ 20? Not so much.

I would consider asking someone with experience making multiple AC-based toons at levels 18 and above about named cloth/light vs. named heavy armors, and about having the utility of a Rogue over the minor bonuses bestowed by a Paladin.

[JollySwagMan]

I would echo Unbongwah's suggestion with a deeper Paladin multiclass, providing some very nice tank boosts, Divine Might I and allowing both Kensai II and Defender of Syberis (or Knight of Chalice), as well as access to metamagics to boost the Dragonmarks. Monk 2 would cover 2 of the 3 feats lost compared to an 18 Fighter/2 Paladin.

Alternately a past life Cleric of a non Halfling race might explore this option to make good use of a boosted Healing Word and the extra Turn.

[Morrodenya]

Oddly enough, I did a build sorta like this once, too, and along the same lines of the drow rogue / pally / ftr I posted for you earlier:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Female
(12 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 2 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 324
Spell Points: 70 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 13
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         10                    12
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             12                    14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               4                     8
Bluff                 1                     4
Concentration         2                     4
Diplomacy             1                     4
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                5                     6
Heal                 -1                     1
Hide                  0                     4
Intimidate            5                    27
Jump                  7                    13
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         0                     2
Open Lock             4                     4
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     1
Search                0                     1
Spot                  3                     3
Swim                  3                     7
Tumble                4                     4
Use Magic Device      5                    25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Healing


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Healing
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use I
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use II
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use III
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use IV
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Kensei Greatsword Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Greatsword Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Greatsword Specialization I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I

Hehe you truly seem to be everywhere ... now if I do a fast compare of the two different builds I notice the following:
Pro's of my build:
- Saves: my build has slightly better overall saves +1 to fort, -1 to reflex, +3 to will
- HP wise: my build has slightly better base HP ... difference of 18 HP (its not much but its there )
- Higher AC: you dropped dodge and combat expertise due to less fighter levels
- Tome reliance: mine works with +1 tomes, yours prefers the more expensive +2 ones
Pro's of your build:
- Damage: Superior damage due to more investment in DPS: THF + Kensei/KoC and Greatswords
- UMD: higher UMD due to rogue lvls able to get higher UMD scores
- Better healing/casting: Access to lvl 1 spells, metamagic feats, slightly better LoH heal

If I look at your build it seems that yours has dropped the AC tank concept to go towards a DPS build with build in self sufficiency + Evasion where mine gravitates towards being an AC tank with some investment into DPS out of an offspec idea.

So in conlusion I would say, I think that buildwise yours surely has something going for it, Good DPS with pretty nice heals from mainly using dragonmarks however for the concept I am trying make here ... a dragonmarked AC fighter tank which splashes into paladin for a few defensive bonuses, this build is not really what I am looking for :s. I COULD drop the two meta magic enhancements and go for dodge + combat expertise with using slightly other starting stats but that would do more bad to your DPS build than it would do good. It is one of the reasons why for this defensive build I did not go for higher paladin levels ... due to having full line of dragonmarks feats are somewhat scarce

[TheDearLeader]

I'ma ask:

You are aware that Power Attack, and Combat Expertise, are both Combat Stances that are mutually exclusive? That is to say, you can only have one toggled at the same time?

To explore a bit further, you will either have the +5 AC, or the +5 to Damage. 5 Less Damage per Swing hurts the ability to "Hate Tank". And thanks to U9, all tanks are Hate Tanks.

[Morrodenya]

You didn't implicitly say "I don't have monk" anywhere. VIPs can use Monk, but don't immediately have access to 32-point build.

Aside from that... Re:Rogue, AC, Light Armor.

You do realize that AC in this game is less about what's on your torso, and more about how many different bonuses you can get to stack @ once with finding/grinding gear, yeah? Some of the highest ACs in the game are reached while in cloth/light armor.

Does Mith. Full Plate rock the lower levels? Yeah. @ 20? Not so much.

I would consider asking someone with experience making multiple AC-based toons at levels 18 and above about named cloth/light vs. named heavy armors, and about having the utility of a Rogue over the minor bonuses bestowed by a Paladin.

True i did not say I don't have monk (at least not in this thread ) and I was not attacking you I was merely stating i dont have access to them ... maybe it sounded less friendly than I had intended I dont know.

About AC ... yeah I realise that the best AC is gotten by stacking multiple bonuses and not just the armor you are wearing. But I also know that if you want to tank having nice DR/- is nice and (correct me if i am wrong here) heavy armor seems the logic spot to look for that. For the rest as Monk class seems to be the hot class for almost every AC build that has access to it I can understand that a lot of those people will indeed use outfits because heavy armor just does not fit the monk class ... that does not mean that a Fighter build without any monk in it is useless right? Consider this a starter player build that tries to be somewhat better than the game's standard path due to having some self suffciency and flexibility that is able to be usefull at higher levels without it ever pretending to be the best build around

Never stated that rogue does not bring extra utility although in the build I am aiming for only thing I can think of is extra UMD ... due to high fighter levels not enough skill points to invest in open lock/trap monkey skills. I agree though that once you have enough skillpoints to make a char get trap skills rogue is VERY VERY tempting

[Morrodenya]

I'ma ask:

You are aware that Power Attack, and Combat Expertise, are both Combat Stances that are mutually exclusive? That is to say, you can only have one toggled at the same time?

To explore a bit further, you will either have the +5 AC, or the +5 to Damage. 5 Less Damage per Swing hurts the ability to "Hate Tank". And thanks to U9, all tanks are Hate Tanks.

Yes I am aware I included both from the following perspective: Take power attack in DPS mode, go for combat expertise when tanking.

However if you could explain me what changed so drastically with U9 (missed that update as i only returned to DDO like a month ago) that would be very welcome

[TheDearLeader]

About AC ... yeah I realise that the best AC is gotten by stacking multiple bonuses and not just the armor you are wearing. But I also know that if you want to tank having nice DR/- is nice and (correct me if i am wrong here) heavy armor seems the logic spot to look for that.

There are many sources of DR that are non-armor based. Too many to go into, really, unless I'm making a full guide on getting DR.

Consider this a starter player build that tries to be somewhat better than the game's standard path due to having some self suffciency and flexibility that is able to be usefull at higher levels without it ever pretending to be the best build around

What I'm saying is sometime around level 15, or maybe sooner, this build's AC is going to be about as useful as a Sorc's AC in level-appropriate content, pre-gear. And when I mean gear, I don't mean +5 Mith. FP and +5 Tower Shield. I mean named stuff, raid stuff, event stuff, quest chain reward stuff, Shroud stuff, more gear than you have slots for stuff. I played my Rogue through his 2nd life worrying about AC up until this point as well, because until then, yes it is nice to have the hit-me-not option. But after that, it's time to abandon AC, move to static DR and Combat CC, and killing things faster than they can cause you appreciable damage.

Never stated that rogue does not bring extra utility although in the build I am aiming for only thing I can think of is extra UMD ... due to high fighter levels not enough skill points to invest in open lock/trap monkey skills. I agree though that once you have enough skillpoints to make a char get trap skills rogue is VERY VERY tempting

Technically, a 32 point 18/2 Fighter/Rogue can also get the trapskills. I wasn't suggesting trapskills for this build - just OL and UMD.

Yes I am aware I included both from the following perspective: Take power attack in DPS mode, go for combat expertise when tanking.

However if you could explain me what changed so drastically with U9 (missed that update as i only returned to DDO like a month ago) that would be very welcome

Sure, no problem.

You can no longer "Intimitank", where you hit the Intimidate button, and hide behind your shield with the shift key mashed down.

You hit Intimidate, it puts you at the top of the aggro pile, and gives you 6 seconds of increased threat generation. However, it has a 15 second cooldown.

What's this mean? If you hit Intim, and shieldblock, I *will* pull aggro back from you almost immediately. If you hit Intim, and your damage is subpar, I *will* pull aggro back from you almost immediately.

Now, you need not just the AC, the static DR, and the appropriate Intim score, you also need the DPS + Threat Generation gear to make sure that, with your PrE, your Modified Threat Values exceed the standard threat values of someone who went full-****** with their DPS.

Which is why I'm saying that viable AC "tanking" builds are difficult to accomplish without a heavy amount of gear. You're asking to be able to do much of the same things a full-DPS build does, who has invested every piece of gear/feat/enhancement into furthering that DPS, while also taking none of the damage that they did. It's asking for more when you both have the same quantity of "things" to invest toward your goals.

[Morrodenya]

First of all thanks for the explenation

You can no longer "Intimitank", where you hit the Intimidate button, and hide behind your shield with the shift key mashed down.

You hit Intimidate, it puts you at the top of the aggro pile, and gives you 6 seconds of increased threat generation. However, it has a 15 second cooldown.

While using a shield it is 12 second right and ok with 15 second cooldown ... so true i cannot keep aggro by just mashing intimidate all the time and not attacking and just hiding behind good ol' tower shield

Which is why I'm saying that viable AC "tanking" builds are difficult to accomplish without a heavy amount of gear. You're asking to be able to do much of the same things a full-DPS build does, who has invested every piece of gear/feat/enhancement into furthering that DPS, while also taking none of the damage that they did. It's asking for more when you both have the same quantity of "things" to invest toward your goals.

I disagree here ... i dont want to do just as much damage as they do and not get hit. I fully understand that when dropping shield and for dps purpose get 2 hander out that a) I will get hit and AC be damned, b) my DPS will be lower than a devoted DPSer. In tank mode my dps will even suffer more as using a 1H and shield but then the AC should be enough to not get hit all the time (and yes i am aware that grinding all the necessary gear will take time, patience and effort) however despite lower damage ... 100% Extra threat 12 per 15 seconds from intimidate + 50% extra threat from tank stance (Stalwart defender III defensive stance) should help in keeping aggro right?

[TheDearLeader]

First of all thanks for the explenation

While using a shield it is 12 second right and ok with 15 second cooldown ... so true i cannot keep aggro by just mashing intimidate all the time and not attacking and just hiding behind good ol' tower shield

I disagree here ... i dont want to do just as much damage as they do and not get hit. I fully understand that when dropping shield and for dps purpose get 2 hander out that a) I will get hit and AC be damned, b) my DPS will be lower than a devoted DPSer. In tank mode my dps will even suffer more as using a 1H and shield but then the AC should be enough to not get hit all the time (and yes i am aware that grinding all the necessary gear will take time, patience and effort) however despite lower damage ... 100% Extra threat 12 per 15 seconds from intimidate + 50% extra threat from tank stance (Stalwart defender III defensive stance) should help in keeping aggro right?

Ah... you know what? I'll admit my bad here. I overlooked where they'd made it 12 seconds of increased threat instead of 6 - when I was first playtesting it for my own purposes on Lammania, pretty sure it was 6 regardless of weapon set.

The extra threat, and the stance, should *assist* in keeping aggro, yes. Combat Expertise, however, does not. Threat is interesting in this game...I'd say until you have a bunch of the fancy gear, don't offer to main tank any raid unless the group is just desperate. Not that I'm saying your skill is lacking, but minus the gear, you're looking at less AC, possibly less saves, less damage, and less threat generation.

My personal suggestion would be to play a Kensei or KotC up to 20, do a bunch of raids (20~40 completions of each), get a bunch of tasty tomes, get a bunch of nice BtC AC/DPS/Threat related gear, then TR into the build you have proposed. 34 Points, and with the ability to slap on the gear as you become the appropriate level, it will be much more fulfilling to play.

[Trillea]

Too bad that this build doesn't have any monk levels. Its short name would be the Drunk Tank. (Dragonmarked Monk Tank)

[TheDearLeader]

Too bad that this build doesn't have any monk levels. Its short name would be the Drunk Tank. (Dragonmarked Monk Tank)

We could ask MadFloyd for a Monk Lotto?

Oh now that would be an awesome Lotto.. to hell with XP pots. Lets get ACCOUNT OPTIONS.

[unbongwah]

- Better healing/casting: Access to lvl 1 spells, metamagic feats, slightly better LoH heal

This is the big advantage of my build: Emp Heal + Maximize means +150% from Least & Lesser DM, +50% from Greater; pally Devotion II means +20% to all three. The main drawback is not getting those metamagics until lvls 12 & 15, so the healing output is somewhat backloaded. IMHO, the halfling DMs don't provide enough healing to be worth the feat cost unless you have some way of boosting their output; otherwise you might as well just use Cure wands & Heal scrolls.

I've also got Evasion on this build, although the lower DEX & CHA than the TWF drow build I did means lower Reflex saves, too.

BTW, have a look at my Sentinel Squire for a beginner's bastard sword tank.

[Morrodenya]

I did an AC breakdown for this char of gear that should be more or less easy attainable (from F2P quests or buyable on AH without spending millions of pp). Could anyone of you double check to see if i did not screw up somewhere? Thanks in advance:

Base: 10
+5 Mithral Full Plate: 8 armor + 5 magic + 6 dex bonus (1 standard + 2 mithral + 3 SDIII prestige) = 19 armor*
+5 Mithral Tower shield: 4 shield + 5 magic + 6 dex bonus (2 standard + 2 mithral + 3 SDIII prestige - 1 due to armor max) = 15*
Item of protection +4 : 4 deflection
Halfling racial: 1
Paladin aura: 1
Chaosgarde (bracers): 2 dodge
Dodge: 1 dodge
Stalwart Defender prestige Bonus: 3
Rusted Crown: 1 natural
Eldritch Rituals: 2
Combat Expertise: 5
Stalwart Defender Prestige Stance III: 4
Random weapon of greater parrying: 2 insight
________________________________
Total Stanced unbuffed: 70 AC

* counts on 22 dex: 12 start + 2 halfling + 2 Tome + 6 dex from random +dex item (build as posted is slightly different but it is doable, if used exact like build AC will be 2 lower stanced unbuffed)