There's only one reason to door Shroud.

[Beer_Dude]

Beer_dude, how do you get different text to show up for different readers? Because cdemeritt apparently read a completely different opening post than I did. What setting do you have to check in User_CP to make that happen?

Again this was a joke for the drunken raid crew. I think he took it way too serious.

[Pwesiela]

I understand what you're trying to say Pwesiela, but I disagree with it.
Earlier, you said that "it's to be used where your character gets stuck in terrain and needs to get out."
But couldn't that strict definition be slightly altered to "it's to be used where your character gets stuck by terrain in a place that he doesn't want to be, when moments ago he was in a place that he does want to be?"
With this slightly altered description, the /stuck method to retrieve your chests in Shroud makes perfect sense.

You're making it sound black and white, but sometimes there are gray areas.

Ah HAH! A good counter argument!

I would counter that your character IS in the place that they want to be, just not at the time you want to be IN it. By your change, we should be able to use /stuck to get out of ambushes or other quest mechanics where we are likely to face things we don't like, such as death, dismemberment, or loss of loot, and still get the benefits the mechanic was built to protect.

[Vellrad]

Honestly, I think it's just silly. After you've been shrouding for a bit, you'll want to make a second green steel item and you'll wish you actually completed all those previous times to get the Completions needed for a Cleansing Essence.

Not only that but you're GUARANTEED a Large ingredient upon completion.

So really, there are TWO very good reasons to get the Completion every time.

(I can MAYBE see why someone doesn't want to complete because they don't have their regular Shard of Power...I'm not too convinced though.)

No, if new player recalls out of shroud, he/she probably is doing another rigth away until tired/bored/farmed what he/shee needs (and completes), so after X days guy who is always finishing and guy who is recalling couple of times, and then finishes, will get the same number of completions, but the second will get more mats, be more bored, and will miss things from other quests he could do, if he/she wouldn't farm shroud.

[Zigana]

-Doing chrono on elite gives more named loot than normal (not 100% sure on this one, but my forum led understanding is it makes no difference)

This statement is in fact, correct. Earlier content it was not the case, but it was changed at some point. Here's a past thread with the info:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...0&postcount=28

[Calebro]

Ah HAH! A good counter argument!

I would counter that your character IS in the place that they want to be, just not at the time you want to be IN it. By your change, we should be able to use /stuck to get out of ambushes or other quest mechanics where we are likely to face things we don't like, such as death, dismemberment, or loss of loot, and still get the benefits the mechanic was built to protect.

Nope. That's what the extremely long activation timer is for. You know, the one that can be interrupted and takes twice as long as any other activation in the game. That timer prevents you from using it in that sort of way, so your counterargument fails.

[Arkat]

You're supposed to say "It's not a misuse of the mechanic because the dev's clearly intend us to use it in this way" or something similar.

Obviously, you don't know what it means when a game designer calls something a "feature" instead of a bug or exploit.

[mullmachine]

You've never seen 11 people waiting at the barrier in part 5 scratching their arses waiting for 1 person to confirm whether he's out or not? Sure you can say 'it's just a minute', but why hold people's time hostage ever for that one minute?

If you REALLY REALLY MUST not finish, just /death out when Harry's at 5%

Cool i'll try that /death trick at 5% as primary healer and laugh when everyone dies so noone get's completion

[Beer_Dude]

Cool i'll try that /death trick at 5% as primary healer and laugh when everyone dies so noone get's completion

That's not likely to happen. We lost our only healer last week when Harry was at 40%. He still dropped like a portal and I think we only had 3 people die. So at 5% it's not too likely we would wipe and those that do die can hit the alter & res.

[Miahoo]

Ok 2 reasons. If you need a shard to craft and will be tring once you craft ok i get it. Other than that the only reason you should door out is if that's your last toon that can run another drunken raid run in the Shroud and you still want to do more quests with a bunch of drunk idiots.

Otherwise thrpISA no

Or if u're a newb and want to craft your 2nd tier gs asap.

[Dagolar]

/stuck was implemented to get you out of terrain prohibiting movement. Using it other wise is contrary to its purpose and therefore nefarious. Or, in other words, using it to get yourself back to a location that you are not supposed to be able to get to is nefarious. Using it to get to chests that you are legitimately locked out from is nefarious, as far as I'm concerned, regardless of the "justness" of getting the loot you earned. It's a question of means and ends. You argue that the means (misuse of a game mechanic) is permitted to get the end (looting earned chests). I argue that the means (staying in and looting or getting out without the risk) is just as important as the end (looting the chest or getting to rerun). Logic doesn't dictate anything in this case. It rarely does, my Vulcan friend.

If you can push aside your irritation at the other replies you've faced for a moment, take this next element with a clear mind:
What you're arguing above- and in most of your replies- is that the mechanic cannot be used as a method of efficiency, and that it's an exploit to save yourself a bit of time. Correct?
Well, you've implied that such is a slippery slope moving to exploitation. However..
You're arguing against efficiency and method of acquiring. So, taking the next LOGICAL steps we would first have to:
Ban people from entering quests once they're completed: Thus, people running loot runs and inviting others to join once it is completed for the loot alone could not do so- after all, the people just entering didn't do anything to earn the loot- never mind that the loot was earned by someone who decided to use it to their own intent, it's still bordering as an exploit, correct?

Okay, good. But from that, we'd have to next ban people from entering a quest as it has started- period. Even if they're only entering late, they haven't EARNED the progression into the quest, correct?

And finally, we'd have to move to the last logical step: We'd have to ban high level players from running low level quests since, after all, they're using a method of efficiency to bypass limitations. Are all those people running elite chrono with level 20s in tow EARNING their loot? Are the level 20s even EARNING it?

These are actually ACCEPTABLE views to have.. they do follow logically, after all. However, they're brittle in their strictness and serve no purpose other than to be strict. After all, we all know there are easy and hard ways to do things: Hence xp farm quests, loot farm quests.

Not only is it unfeasible to even begin to try and 'balance' that out, it's unwise- that wiggle room in so many areas is one of the things that makes the game interesting, even to people who aren't exploiters or powergamers. Who wants a bland, straightforward, overly limited game- isn't the point of a game to, in some precise measure, escape limitations?

The people in question have, through whatever method, earned their chests or have had them earned for them. It may not be a guaranteed system of A provides B, but it's still valid and acceptable, and certainly not an exploit.

Now, the actual form of an exploit:
An exploit is using a feature or element to BYPASS a requirement. Can you get up the mountain again? Did you already get up the mountain and fall when there was no guarantee that you would? Okay, no exploit. Did you find a way to teleport through a wall and BYPASS an area? Okay, exploit.

Deciding whether something should be treated as an exploit can be tricky. But defining if something should be considered for such determination is not. Just like many rules of grammar or logic, it's about placing your element into the structure and seeing if it fits.

You may not like how this element works, and that's fine, reasonable, and worth arguing for if you feel strongly about it. But it isn't an exploit in the strictest sense- and, we are, after all, working in the strictest senses, are we not?- and addressing it will have more powerful consequences than leaving it in will.

So, I offer you this focus for your determined consideration instead:
Kobolds, Gnomes. We should be able to play as them.
Power to the movement!