Direct comparison, Cleric vs FvS - Give the Clerics love?

[good_ole_corwin]

I expected such "elitist" arguments, since this is the forums
Ardor VIII clickies are a (rare?) drop from a single quest not everybody has access to. Greater Devotion is what, 40% boost? My mass cure moderate under S.Ardor VI will heal more and for less mana than your mass cure seriouswith G.Devotion VII.
Cometfall is enhanced by readily available S.Efficacy VI clickies and its bludgeoning damage, so not many mobs resistant to it (unlike fire from Fire Storm or Flamestrike), and its CC effect is a different save (not sure atm. if its reflex or a str/dex/balance check), complementing the will save from Greater Command and fortitude on heightened Soundburst.
Harm is enhanced by Life Magic enhancement line and the dmg it does to a single target is not insignificant, especially on mobs/bosses that are vulnerable to neg damage (something tells me bearded devils are ones, but I would have to look up examples to be sure. Its rather late here, so bear with me) and yes, you can heal those pesky palemasters with it.
Here I was thinking that the air elly is popular for its CC capabilities, but of course I could be mistaken.
Yeah yeah, everybody loves Heal and at the same time everybody hates it because half of its healing will go over the top half of the time. Buffed Cure Critical is more than adequate for most healing and costs 20 SP less than Heal with Heighten on. Im considering putting a Serious or even just Moderate on my bar again because I tend to overheal casters with the inefficient Critical.

I think you are of the mindset that whoever gets to endgame should have uber gear, perfect builds, lightning-fast reflexes and never have bad luck. If they want AC and they dont have a +5 deflection item, they dont deserve a cheap buff. If the annoying palemaster is incapacitated somehow or just carried away in the battle, he doesnt deserve a bit of negative energy from me, let him die. Why bother making a run faster and easier for a non-perfect group?

Well, I for one am not perfect, dont have all the quests memorized, dont have epic gear and sometimes I press the wrong button or mess up timing on a trap. And I tend to run in groups composed of people like me (not always, just most of the time). As a cleric, I can bring the little extra support that you deem useless, as a FvS, I would have to concentrate only on the crucial stuff.

And perhaps most importantly, not everything for everybody revolves around epics and endgame.

P.S. No neg rep from me, not sure why anybody would on your post.

[AtomicMew]

I think you are of the mindset that whoever gets to endgame should have uber gear, perfect builds, lightning-fast reflexes and never have bad luck.
...
Well, I for one am not perfect, dont have all the quests memorized, dont have epic gear and sometimes I press the wrong button or mess up timing on a trap. And I tend to run in groups composed of people like me (not always, just most of the time). As a cleric, I can bring the little extra support that you deem useless, as a FvS, I would have to concentrate only on the crucial stuff.

You are trying to paint me as elitist, when that is not the case. My two active divines have zero epic gear, save the gear from crystal cove. One is wearing the level 12 Sora Kell set, and they both have some slots filled with unnamed loot. Why? Because it doesn't take much gear to play an effective divine. A FvS is even less gear dependent, being a hardier and far more mobile class. More important however is knowing which spells are good, and which are not even worth casting. Unlike an arcane's spell book, there are very few divine spells that are even worth casting. I see too many divines wasting their mana on casting totally marginal spells - spell levels 2-4 are especially filled with useless nukes. I see too many divines spamming maximized, double empowered cures back to back, and not even doing so to take advantage of the fast casting time so they can do more melee DPS.

And perhaps most importantly, not everything for everybody revolves around epics and endgame.

This statement is correct - which is why I still have clerics at all. Clerics level up just as well as FvS, especially on undead quests. HOWEVER: some people DO care about end game. And for that, FvS vs. cleric is unbalanced. You don't have to care about end-game to understand that some people do.

I expected such "elitist" arguments, since this is the forums Don't confuse "elitist" with experienced.

Ardor VIII clickies are a (rare?) drop from a single quest not everybody has access to. Greater Devotion is what, 40% boost? My mass cure moderate under S.Ardor VI will heal more and for less mana than your mass cure seriouswith G.Devotion VII.Ardor VIII clickies are not a rare drop, they are very common. If you want efficiency, use mass heal. Even ignoring that, being slightly less efficient is nowhere near "significantly reducing the versatility" as you said.

Cometfall is enhanced by readily available S.Efficacy VI clickies and its bludgeoning damage, so not many mobs resistant to it (unlike fire from Fire Storm or Flamestrike),Many things wrong with this statement. 1) Efficacy VI are terrible and not worth using. Use superior potency VI. 2) The damage efficiency from cometfall is totally insignificant, being orders less than blade barrier. 3) The CC effect is too marginal, it doesn't last nearly long enough to be useful. 4) Cometfall is also conjuration, which isn't a school any cleric focuses in.

Harm is enhanced by Life Magic enhancement line and the dmg it does to a single target is not insignificant,The damage harm does is very insignificant. It is far less than divine punishment and barely better than even just searing light (level 3 spell or capstone), and only if it isn't saved against.

Here I was thinking that the air elly is popular for its CC capabilities, but of course I could be mistaken.Yes, and it's available at level 4 from a very common item. People run around harbor and marketplace with air ellies, and they don't need 17 caster levels to do it.

Yeah yeah, everybody loves Heal and at the same time everybody hates it because half of its healing will go over the top half of the time. Buffed Cure Critical is more than adequate for most healing and costs 20 SP less than Heal with Heighten on.
Heal scrolls have the same effect and are so cheap that they are essentially free (about the same cost as it takes a tank to repair his equipment). If it's a dire emergency, use heal or free CLW or heck, even a mass cure. I have never had any problems not having cure critical on any of my FvS or clerics. It is frankly more beneficial to have a less cluttered bar.

If the annoying palemaster is incapacitated somehow or just carried away in the battle, he doesnt deserve a bit of negative energy from me, let him die. Why bother making a run faster and easier for a non-perfect group?If the only issue is to save incapped PM's, buy some inflict scrolls.

If they want AC and they dont have a +5 deflection item, they dont deserve a cheap buff. No, I'm saying that if they didn't put in the effort to find a +5 deflection item, they probably won't have relevant AC with or without SoF. I have actually never had anyone ask for SoF, and therefore, don't carry it.

[tgu]

Come on good_ole_corwin and AtomicMew. It is pretty clear what you two are bickering about. Can't you agree on the principle that you should try to have a character that is a strong build that isn't about being *perfect*, without any elitism?

I would think you guys wouldn't go off-topic like that, but it is kind of sad. You both are vets of the game, and I'd hope you don't continue this conversation.

Back to topic, thanks everyone for the input. It really seems a lot of people are content with their Clerics, while others see that their are flaws and chose to go FvS. Great thread

[butcheredspirit]

Cometfall is enhanced by readily available S.Efficacy VI clickies and its bludgeoning damage, so not many mobs resistant to it (unlike fire from Fire Storm or Flamestrike)

I believe cometfall is magic bludgeon damage.
This means it bypasses bludgeon damage reduction.

[Habreno]

Corwin, I'm going to be brutally honest and probably garner some negative rep in the process. IMO, your examples do not work and don't have any relevance to how DDO is played at end game. At best I think your examples are over-exaggerations. I wouldn't even use half the spells you've listed on a cleric, because most of them are not good and simply not worth casting, ever.

Examples he gave, yes.



Not having mass cure moderate does not "significantly reduce versatility of casting ability." I have 3-4 other spells available that literally do the same thing so the versatility argument is false. As for efficiency, my FvS does just fine with as I have Greater Ardor VIII clickies and greater devotion VII as needed. For reference, I have solo-healed most major raids on my FvS at some point in time. There simply isn't the pressure you seem to think there is.

MCMW is nice to have as an automatic spell on a Cleric, but I can see a FvS not taking it due to spell slotting problems. I do see FvS taking Banishment, Blade Barrier, Heal. Everything else is either "Nice" or a swap in (which can get expensive)-these include some scrollables such as Hereo's Feast, Mass Bulls/Bears (all scrollable to a similar effect-only duration and in the case of Hereo's Feast, a slightly smaller HP bonus... whoopee, bonus HP, we have it once) and aside from those, Greater Dispel Magic is the only one I see slotting problems with. Playing a Cleric, I can afford to keep GDM slotted along with Harm, and the mandatory MCMW, as well as the three spells I listed for FvS.

Harm? Whose only use is healing pale masters? I expect pale masters to be able to take care of themselves. I would never slot this, even on my cleric. Raise the bar, don't lower it.

Cometfall? Decent for leveling, but not even worth casting at end game.

Agreed about those two spells, but Harm finds its use more often than you think, and a PM who's pulled a bit more than their HP bar can kill appreciates the occasional Harm directed their way, and loves when it manages to crit. It's also unaffected by metamagics except Heighten and thus is only 35 SP to cast.



Air elemental is only popular because it's available at lvl 4 through event gems, not because it's a level 8 spell.

Fixed a typo (they happen) and just wanted to say that I stopped slotting this spell because of the nearly 200 gems I have that give me the same effect.


Mass shield of faith... cure critical...? These are useless spells. Anyone who wants AC has their own deflection bonus and I'm sure as heck not going to slot an inefficient single-target heal like cure-critical. I would never use either of these on a cleric.

Cure Critical I have only as a mandatory Cleric spell; Mass SoF was dropped for more damaging spells and really has no use at all at end game-and will only be grabbed if someone says they could use a +5 deflection bonus to their AC (and are truly an AC toon) that they have a lesser version of (such as +3/+4/etc.) and appreciate the boost.

I really can't argue with you on this one. Clerics CAN carry more spells but don't always NEED to.

Comments in Red.

[Aashrym]

Palemasters die when incapped in undead forms these days for those who missed it. Just to clear up the argument for incapped palemasters and negative energy healing. Moot debate on that part.

[Tsuarok]

There is no different. They are the same class. They can hjeal me. And do something else that isn't important.

But seriously, they play almost exactly the same. I think it's amazing that they were released as separate classes.

[erikbozelie]

havent read the entire thing, but you forget clerics can take 3level of splashes.

sorry for not going into details, but cleric has more melee capability because of that. more casting power, and more defensive ability. a smart man would figure out how i did that..

fvs wins in terms of DR, spell points, capstone, and wings(reflex save... not that much).

18 fvs = 1 level 9 spell.
17 cleric = 2 level 9 spells.

i was thinking of going fvs for my main, but its lower dps, lower casting ability, and well... bauble, twisted talisman, spellstoring ring and archavist necklace aint doubled, and make up allot for it.

now before you start screaming "disbeliever" on me. this post is coming from an guy that builded an 101 ac clronk. and an 600 dps theory one(still in construction, currently level 7).

2nd build aint public, and will probally never will be.
dont get me wrong, theyre both great. just... if you want to squeeze it to the max. cleric wins.

ok, now you can scream.

[jwdaniels]

Neither of these are even close to relevant IMO.

Split casting stats? A FvS can start off with a 10 in CHA just fine. Cleric, actually is the class that has a harder time, as cleric will want more CHA for turns and/or divine might.

Limited spell selection? As has been explained, in the current meta-game, not the case. The only time I have swapped a spell on my FvS is when U9 came out, to get divine punishment. There are absolutely zero spells that are situationally useful that can't also be scrolled (I'm looking at you, greater restoration). Other examples are mass bear's/bull's for HoX - scroll it up. I even do this on my cleric, since I'm lazy. And frankly, those are the only spell that needs to be scrolled in addition to heal scrolls (which a cleric also carries).

There are simply not enough situationally useful spells to make the cleric's versatility a relevant factor.


A FvS has more than enough room to fit soundburst, if he wants to. I think that you need more experience playing FvS and casters in general. There are no casters who would ever think to scroll up an offensive spell based on DC. That is just a silly example.

Have you played both classes? A cleric can easily dumpstat charisma and not need to worry about number of turn undead attempts. The aura lasts long enough that you can keep it running almost indefinitely just based off the fact that turns regenerate, and you really don't need the burst in most situations anyway. Clerics need charisma even less than Favored Souls do.

Do you know what a DC is? It's the number that the mob you cast a spell on needs to get in order to save against the spell. Soundburst is only good because it is an AoE stun, and if the DC on the save is so low that nobody ever fails and gets stunned it's a pointless spell. Yes, a Favored Soul can certainly pump wisdom to increase spell DCs (the evoker build does this) but that comes at the expense of melee stats, weakening the FvS in combat. You can't build a Favored Soul to do everything, because it becomes incredibly stat-intensive, but (as I said earlier) a FvS generally will do whatever it is specifically specced to do (except healing) better than a cleric possibly can, but will not be as versatile.

As far as spell selection, my cleric carries inflicts and harms in addition to cures and heals because I run with at least one pale master - a favored soul just can't do that. My cleric carries destruction and slay living - again, a favored soul is hard-pressed to have enough slots for that and a DC high enough to make it matter. My cleric fits in banishment and dismissal, command, greater command... Trust me, there are plenty of spells that I carry (and use often) on a cleric that don't fit on a Favored Soul.

[jwdaniels]

There is no different. They are the same class. They can hjeal me. And do something else that isn't important.

But seriously, they play almost exactly the same. I think it's amazing that they were released as separate classes.

I really encourage you to play both classes a little bit more - they dont' play anything close to the same.