Direct comparison, Cleric vs FvS - Give the Clerics love?

[Oracle_Gil]

DDO Oracle says:
Thelanis.
Level 20 Chars by Class
Class# of Chars
Cleric1364
Sorcerer 1297
Wizard 1175
FavoredSoul 1113
Monk 993
Fighter 928
Barbarian 749
Paladin 589
Ranger 588
Rogue 569
Bard 535

The nice thing about computers is they store reams of data. Just turning the data into relevant information and making necessary decisions based on said information is sometimes more difficult.

If this creates jobs, I would be happy Smelling an oppurtunity

lol, jokes apart, the fact which you pointed out can be solved, there are ways to solve them mathematically. The models these people make are faboulous...
My simple single brain system can also comprehend a crude strategy that taking an average of data before event and normalising it to a same scale and comparing it to after the event should do the trick. [or in simple english, considering how much difference was before and how much difference in difference is now would do the trick]
Otherwise they must have some program designed by some smart guy with them which us mortals cant comprehend that easily. But such things are done by consultancies... I mean I do think these are done.

However if I have to make a statement from this, I would say that bards need our love, not clerics or FvS

[Iaga]

So, an individual ... CLW does the same job as a sustained....aoe 7 Hps...every 2 seconds...?

Nah, i'm not saying that at all. What i mean is that in a big fight, when your group is taking big damage, the aura isn't enough to keep people alive on it's own. A cleric will have to resort to their mass cures just like a FVS would.

Dealing with small, piddly damage isn't a big deal - and that's what the aura does best.

[joneb1999]

7 HP? Three times that and more at cap then theres crits on top of that.

Nah, i'm not saying that at all. What i mean is that in a big fight, when your group is taking big damage, the aura isn't enough to keep people alive on it's own. A cleric will have to resort to their mass cures just like a FVS would.

Dealing with small, piddly damage isn't a big deal - and that's what the aura does best.

No unlike an FvS a cleric can use his bursts.

[protokon]

Since you pulled a quote from another thread, here we go:

Clerics can CHOOSE their spells, they are not locked in like FvS. Also, they canst the most spells in the game, due to the fact they get healing spells for FREE. That gives them (up to) 6 spells per level, instead of the usual 5 that a Wizard gets. They can change out spells easily, making them adaptable for say HoX to doing the Shroud.

While they don't have the SP like FvS, they do have an awesome healing PrE: Radiant Servant. Not only does it free them from having alot of CHA (due to the regen ability of turn undeads) THe healing radiance they emit is pretty powerful.

Finally, and on a more personal level, I like playing them. I personally have more fun playing them and less stress worrying about whether or not I have what I need for this quest. I like being the walking shrine and I like having the ability to have all the healing/buffing/ and killing spells without spending cash to change them out.

Unfortunately do to the availability of scrolls/wands, most spells that are carried by clerics can easily be carried by favored souls, without needing to 'memorize' it.

It's really stretching it at this point to call clerics more flexible than favored souls. Favored souls are capable of doing more damage in all aspects (melee, casting), are capable of healing just as well (let's face it, the benefits of radiant servant are overkill compared to what is actually needed) and they have more spell points, wings, DR capstone, ect...

The only big benefit of a cleric really is they get more level 9 spells, especially when multiclassed - which isnt that much of a benefit.

I think clerics do need a little love with an offensive Pre (or domains but who knows if that will happen).

I love clerics, I really do, but compared to favored souls there just underdogs with the current game mechanics. I dropped radiant servant on my main and maximized the smiting line, just because I find stacking divine punishment more fun while healing than standing next to the group with my little aura ticking.

[QuantumFX]

Not really sure I agree with the final “assessment” due to a number of player issues I have noticed in these types of threads.

However… WOE OH WOE IS ME!!! This thread PROVES that Clerics desperately need their proper domains!

[joneb1999]

Unfortunately do to the availability of scrolls/wands, most spells that are carried by clerics can easily be carried by favored souls, without needing to 'memorize' it.

It's really stretching it at this point to call clerics more flexible than favored souls. Favored souls are capable of doing more damage in all aspects (melee, casting), are capable of healing just as well (let's face it, the benefits of radiant servant are overkill compared to what is actually needed) and they have more spell points, wings, DR capstone, ect...

The only big benefit of a cleric really is they get more level 9 spells, especially when multiclassed - which isnt that much of a benefit.

I think clerics do need a little love with an offensive Pre (or domains but who knows if that will happen).

I love clerics, I really do, but compared to favored souls there just underdogs with the current game mechanics. I dropped radiant servant on my main and maximized the smiting line, just because I find stacking divine punishment more fun while healing than standing next to the group with my little aura ticking.

You sound like your cleric is boring. Maybe you need to TR him to an FvS. My cleric is great fun so its about how the player makes it.

[muffinlad]

1) Cost vs. No Cost (Earn 2500 favor, or Buy via store) vs. available.
2) Flexibility (Change to what ever spell you need, as required.
3) Number of spells. Unlike Wizard/Sorc, there are more spells @ L4 or better that can change the course of combat/an adventure.
4) Mana (huge advantage to FvS) vs. Aura (Nice advantage for cleric)

I have played 4 chars to high level cleric, and 6 to FvS. I would not respec any of my FvS to Cleric, and eventually I will TR all of my Clerics to FvS. Not because I think FvS is better vs the cost paid (which is the real factor for the difference) but because I enjoy playing a Divine Nuker, who heals and occasionally melee's more than they way I play clerics...and most importantly, the way many other folks want you to play clerics.

There are people out there with clerics who are awesome Divine Nukers, and hats off to them. I need the 800 more mana. Call it a crutch.

All in all, I do not think that the current Cleric vs. FvS is out of balance in theory, but the function of how they are played (when rubber meets the road) means that people who favor an aggressive playstyle and yet still want to heal, choose FvS for good reason.

Regs,

muffinflavor

[joneb1999]

1)
All in all, I do not think that the current Cleric vs. FvS is out of balance in theory, but the function of how they are played (when rubber meets the road) means that people who favor an aggressive playstyle and yet still want to heal, choose FvS for good reason.

Regs,

muffinflavor

If you are happy to run with WF. I just hate their ugly butts. lol Does that make me a racist or technophobic?

[JasonJi72]

I have noticed a few things about playing cleric's and fvs'.

As a cleric, you will always be accepted into a group, but you are expected to heal, while a fvs tends to receive the inquisition on whether or not they can heal.

At different levels each may be considered better at healing. In the early levels fvs's are better due to cooldowns and spell points (except at level 3), but clerics are better healers once radiant servant gets going.

Clerics are much better from level 11 to 13 (maybe even 15) due to the spells available.

Clerics can also keep up a high level summon as they level. Fvs's usually scroll them until MS VIII.

Fvs' will almost always have to rely on scrolls to raise until high levels.

Evasion fvs' only get 1 level 9 spell, but are pretty much immune to energy spells and some traps. It is harder to build an evasion cleric, because the reflex saves are just not there.

A fvs can save quicken until late, and can get by without it. A cleric must have quicken by level 12.

Radiant servant went a long way in balancing the classes. Before that, there really was no comparison. Now the classes are more on par with each other.

The stat distribution is pretty much the same. I find that 12 cha is good enough for either class, but a cleric benefits more from stacking cha.

Personally, I prefer to play a fvs. I like the saves, and other things that come with playing a fvs. The spell selection is a pain though.

[good_ole_corwin]

A fvs can save quicken until late, and can get by without it. A cleric must have quicken by level 12.

Why?

[JasonJi72]

Why?

A fvs casts spells quicker than a cleric. Just like a Sor does compared to a Wiz.

Two words... Blade Barrier.

[morticianjohn]

A 28 pt toon without the use of +2 tomes would be better as a cleric IMHO.

[Noobian]

A fvs casts spells quicker than a cleric. Just like a Sor does compared to a Wiz.

Two words... Blade Barrier.

Huh?

I just started playing a FvS only level 4 but I've not noticed any quickened casting so perhaps this happens later. But...BB is a fast cast now...no need for quicken at all.

The only reason my cleric has Quicken is for Mass Heal in Raids now.

[Habreno]

A fvs casts spells quicker than a cleric. Just like a Sor does compared to a Wiz.

Two words... Blade Barrier.

Four words... Not True Any Longer.

And Favored Souls NEVER had a faster cast speed. Only Sorcerers get that benefit.

[jwdaniels]

To me, that is like is comparing Wizard vs Sorc vs Bard. They are all Arcane, so why not?

Bard's are no where near their arcane brothers, and Paladin is no where near the capacity of Cleric/FvS. If you have proof though, then do tell.

Simply from the standpoint of a Favored Soul as a divine caster that can melee vs. the Paladin as a melee combatant that can cast divine spells. I didn't include cleric in my comparison at all, if you notice, and really this comparison only includes melee favored souls. It's not on topic at all, which is why I didn't bring it up, but the question would be does a Paladin gain enough in terms of comat and other abilities to make it worth taking instead of a Soul Survivor-type Warforged Favored Soul Lord of Blades build? I'd argue no.

Also, how can you compare two classes without looking at the cons? It's actually the cons of the Favored Soul (limited spell selection, split casting stats) that balance it against the cleric. Ignoring that probably explains why you seem to think the cleric is underpowered when it isn't.

EDIT: As far as scroll usage equalling versatility, switching back and forth to scrolls takes time, and scrolls aren't affected by metamagic enhancements so, for example, soundburst on a scroll would be useless to a favored soul after a point.

[AtomicMew]

double post

[AtomicMew]

It's actually the cons of the Favored Soul (limited spell selection, split casting stats) that balance it against the cleric

Neither of these are even close to relevant IMO.

Split casting stats? A FvS can start off with a 10 in CHA just fine. Cleric, actually is the class that has a harder time, as cleric will want more CHA for turns and/or divine might.

Limited spell selection? As has been explained, in the current meta-game, not the case. The only time I have swapped a spell on my FvS is when U9 came out, to get divine punishment. There are absolutely zero spells that are situationally useful that can't also be scrolled (I'm looking at you, greater restoration). Other examples are mass bear's/bull's for HoX - scroll it up. I even do this on my cleric, since I'm lazy. And frankly, those are the only spell that needs to be scrolled in addition to heal scrolls (which a cleric also carries).

There are simply not enough situationally useful spells to make the cleric's versatility a relevant factor.

and scrolls aren't affected by metamagic enhancements so, for example, soundburst on a scroll would be useless to a favored soul after a point.

A FvS has more than enough room to fit soundburst, if he wants to. I think that you need more experience playing FvS and casters in general. There are no casters who would ever think to scroll up an offensive spell based on DC. That is just a silly example.

[good_ole_corwin]

There are simply not enough situationally useful spells to make the cleric's versatility a relevant factor.

A FvS has more than enough room to fit soundburst, if he wants to. I think that you need more experience playing FvS and casters in general. There are no casters who would ever think to scroll up an offensive spell based on DC. That is just a silly example.

So lets look at lvl6 spells. Banishment, Blade Barrier, Cometfall, Mass Cure Moderate, Harm, Heal. As a cleric I can have all of these, and they arent just situationally useful, but pretty universal (if I had to pick situational lvl6 spells, Id say Greater Dispel or Symbol of Persuasion). I could theoretically part with Mass Cure Moderate, but only thanks to the RS bursts - its the highest mass cure affected by the common Superior Ardor VI clickies and unlike Mass Heal the casting time is doable even without quicken. By sacrificing any single one of those, you are IMHO significantly reducing the versatility of your casting abilities. And of these 6, a FVS can only have 3.

Lvl8 spells: Holy Aura, Fire Storm, Symbol of Death, Mass Death Ward, Summon VIII (the popular air elemental) on top of it the situational Death Pact. FVS again down to 3 choices, cleric has 5 (+mass cure critical). These choices are much less painful than lvl6 I suppose, but again, having all of them gives cleric the versatility we are talking about.

Lvl4 spells: Dismissal, Freedom of Movement, Mass Shield of Faith (available from scrolls I think, but max. effect is from caster lvl 18, so scrolling is gimping it), Cure Critical, Recitation (sure you can scroll it or just live without it, but it still helps and can have much longer duration with actual casting), Holy Smite, Death Ward (can swap it once you can take the mass version, but its useful until then). FVS is limited to 4, Cleric can have 6.

For me, even just the lvl6 spells would be enough to make the clerics versatility a relevant factor. Not all of the above listed spells are a must-have-to-survive, obviously. But they are at least situationally useful or just nice to have and are either not available from scroll vendors or suffer from low scroll caster levels/inability to buff scrolls with metamagics and gear.

[Letrii]

Cleric is better caster due to not needing 2 different stats for casting.

[AtomicMew]

Corwin, I'm going to be brutally honest and probably garner some negative rep in the process. IMO, your examples do not work and don't have any relevance to how DDO is played at end game. At best I think your examples are over-exaggerations. I wouldn't even use half the spells you've listed on a cleric, because most of them are not good and simply not worth casting, ever.

So lets look at lvl6 spells. Banishment, Blade Barrier, Cometfall, Mass Cure Moderate, Harm, Heal. As a cleric I can have all of these, and they arent just situationally useful, but pretty universal (if I had to pick situational lvl6 spells, Id say Greater Dispel or Symbol of Persuasion). I could theoretically part with Mass Cure Moderate, but only thanks to the RS bursts - its the highest mass cure affected by the common Superior Ardor VI clickies and unlike Mass Heal the casting time is doable even without quicken. By sacrificing any single one of those, you are IMHO significantly reducing the versatility of your casting abilities.

Not having mass cure moderate does not "significantly reduce versatility of casting ability." I have 3-4 other spells available that literally do the same thing so the versatility argument is false. As for efficiency, my FvS does just fine with as I have Greater Ardor VIII clickies and greater devotion VII as needed. For reference, I have solo-healed most major raids on my FvS at some point in time. There simply isn't the pressure you seem to think there is.

Harm? Whose only use is healing pale masters? I expect pale masters to be able to take care of themselves. I would never slot this, even on my cleric. Raise the bar, don't lower it.

Cometfall? Decent for leveling, but not even worth casting at end game.

Lvl8 spells: Holy Aura, Fire Storm, Symbol of Death, Mass Death Ward, Summon VIII (the popular air elemental) on top of it the situational Death Pact. FVS again down to 3 choices, cleric has 5 (+mass cure critical). These choices are much less painful than lvl6 I suppose, but again, having all of them gives cleric the versatility we are talking about.

Air elemental is only popular because it's available at clvl 4 through event gems, not because it's a level 8 spell.

Lvl4 spells: Dismissal, Freedom of Movement, Mass Shield of Faith (available from scrolls I think, but max. effect is from caster lvl 18, so scrolling is gimping it), Cure Critical, Recitation (sure you can scroll it or just live without it, but it still helps and can have much longer duration with actual casting), Holy Smite, Death Ward (can swap it once you can take the mass version, but its useful until then). FVS is limited to 4, Cleric can have 6.

Mass shield of faith... cure critical...? These are useless spells. Anyone who wants AC has their own deflection bonus and I'm sure as heck not going to slot an inefficient single-target heal like cure-critical. I would never use either of these on a cleric.