Direct comparison, Cleric vs FvS - Give the Clerics love?

[sirgog]

on the DR that FvS get.....

Stoneskin.

either from umd (which having to wand it ever 3-5 hit is a pain i agree) or from earthen guard procing items (DT or cove trinket)

but that said, i found my cleric at lvl 20 was never lacking in the DR department with self buffing stoneskin. I like FvS as much as cleric but just feel that as has being mentioned by many (looking at you doc) a well made/played cleric is just as potent as a well made/played FvS.

The key here is player skill.

lately on my TR i've had to endure some of the most horrid builds of both class. the lack of the basic survivabilty buff spells on both classes has being shocking to see - but not nearly as shocking as the lack of desire to understand why those buffs are so important
I cant wait till my TR'ing is over and I can go back to being the Cleric my character was built to be.

Stoneskin just doesn't cut it. Unless your Stoneskin wand is permanently equipped, it takes 3 seconds to equip a wand, use it, and reequip whatever you'd normally have there. The FvS is just much, much more durable overall.

[DoctorWhofan]

I would add player skill in building as well as playing their chosen class.
Right now only 1 pre per class is out. One is a healing focused pre the other is a offensive casting focused pre so its not really apples to apples comparison.

Not taking sides (as a dont currently have a capped cleric but do have a capped fvs) but few people have mentioned spell flexibility as a disadvantage to the fvs class but alot of this can be overcome by a well stocked supply of various scrolls.

That is a disavantage, lack of flexiblity. Scrolls are not cheap, and unless you invested in some wand and scroll mastery (which most divines might be able to put one maybe 2 ranks into it) now you talking damage output and/or length of time lessened. And new players may not have the cash to carry all the missing spellscrolls either. We are only looking at the basics, pretty much stripped of gear. That is the fairest comparison.

As for players, there is a group doing just gimped characters. Tri-classed and random rolled. All gear is picked up only. All the peeps doing this have been playing for awhile now. What was the important point was (paraphrasing) "We been completing quests at or or above level alot of times on elite, with few or no deaths. It took longer but at the end, wasn't that hard." That says ALOT for player knowledge. I would list player knowledge and abilities higher than a build any day of the week. Which makes comparasions like this kinda moot.

[eruhuan]

Each class has its own pros and cons, There is no better class regarding cleric versus favored soul. As the doc have said, it all comes down to player skill.

Another thing that people dont emphasize is that these 2 classes work synergistically well with each other. With the Radiant Aura and Bursts, it will free more SP for the favored soul for casting Offensive spells such as blade barrier. IMHO it is always better to take 1 Clr and 1 Fvs, as compared to 2 Clr or 2 Fvs.

It all boils down on what the class brings to your playstyle. As for me, I love to casts bladebarriers, LOTS of em. I also like to rush into battle head on. On that regard, the Angel of Vengeance II +30% damage boost to blade barriers and Leap of Faith serves my playstyle well, with that I'm biased to the Favored Soul. You just have to know what class "suits" your personality and style.

[tgu]

Response time...

Can we stop arguing this now? I gave into the OP last night, but really? Do we really need to say "FvS is better?" or "Clerics are the uberist?" Is this really helping, at the end of the day?

You give in often Doctor?

I knew regardless of how I addressed it, I knew this topic would draw some bias. I have actually learned quite a bit though, and this topic is a good read.

Personally, I think the more interesting comparison is between the Favored Soul and the Paladin.

To me, that is like is comparing Wizard vs Sorc vs Bard. They are all Arcane, so why not?

Bard's are no where near their arcane brothers, and Paladin is no where near the capacity of Cleric/FvS. If you have proof though, then do tell.

IF they ever release Warpriest, there will be many clerics losing a lot of sleep on how to cope without RS.

I can see you losing sleep already ShadowFlash :P

on the DR that FvS get.....

Stoneskin.

either from umd (which having to wand it ever 3-5 hit is a pain i agree) or from earthen guard procing items (DT or cove trinket).

So, people frequently get/use SS wand in combat?

Each class has its own pros and cons

When I look at the current FvS and Clerics, I try not to think of the classes as having "cons", just what pro's do they have, and what more could be done to improve each class.

Now, if we compare one of these two something like a caster -- (wiz/sorc) v. cleric/fvs OR melee -- barb/fighter/monk/rogue/paladin vs. cleric/fvs seems like a good thing to list cons of.

[Dagolar]

the most fun of DDO is not in the hack'n'slash, it's in the challenging quests and dungeon designs with the plethora of options available to solve them. you do realize that killing things doesn't directly reward you at all, right? the shift away from non-combat solutions is a huge problem for the game, and i can't see myself staying for very much longer as this trend continues.

the sorts of things that PnP Clerics brought which were very powerful tools... things like:

Scrying / Clairvoyance / Discern Location
Weather Manipulation
Fly (!!!)
Zone of Truth
Consecrate/Desecrate
Light and Darkness (my god, i can't ****ing believe there are no light mechanics in this game?! don't talk to me about Rainbow in the Dark...)
Stone Shape / Wall of Stone
Wind Wall
Dimensional Anchor (there's teleporting demons in here....)
Spell Immunity / Spell Turning
Imbue With Spell Ability
Anti-Life Shell / Repulsion
Regeneration (!!!)
Anti-Magic Field (trolololol your raid members!)
Holy Aura
Storm of Vengeance
Gate (Summon Monster 9 just is not blowing my skirt up....)
Shapechange (cross your fingers it might come when Druids do... soon...)
Mislead (seriously, Illusion and Divination need about twenty new spells each...)
Moment of Prescience (!!!)
Grasping / Crushing /Clenching Hand
Prismatic Sphere / Wall
Time Stop (giggle...)

just a huge range of fantastical effects which are just not in the game. where's the magic? where's the fantasy? oh look. you started a fire, ho hum. let's ask the monsters to kindly stand in it now because we have to do yet more damage. Crowd Control and finesse? what's that? you mean games are meant to require skill instead of mindless, reflexive, Pavlovian, obsessive-compulsive combat grinding?

I can't agree more. I was horribly annoyed with Into the Deep [Red Fens]: We were promised underwater elements, and instead they gave us hindered mobility to a water BACKDROP. And it's a shame, because the water system in DDO isn't a bad one. I want Merfolk's to have more meaning- instead, you use -haste- of all things in Into the Deep.

Same goes for Rainbow- light and dark was such a pivotal element to pnp, but the one time it's included in the game, it's implemented poorly to the whole: It'd be fine if it was one quest among many with darkness mechanics, but, standing alone, it only serves as a mockery of the element. (Mind you, I like Rainbow fine, I'm arguing against the utilization of the mechanic, not the quest itself.)

Hell, even Spawn Screen doesn't get much use.. making the monk ability to the effect near-worthless.

The game desperately needs to have better implementations for the non-offense spells in the game, as well as more of such spells.

Of course, they could always add Mage Hand into the game. I don't see that cantrip being abused at ALL. <3

[Oracle_Gil]

I am waiting for sorjek to go and bring undead demons as his friends next time. Then I guess I will comment here. <collect undead demons... RS burst... its over>

p.s. Clerics can do insane damage to undead. If I write the numbers without screenshot, you wont believe me, so I wont. So to compare two classes, you need to be subjective about each situation. Objectively, all classes are equal and good.

[Oracle_Gil]

that's what the game needs in general, though.

i'm pretty disgusted by the spell overhaul. the focus of the game's design is just shifting more and more toward grinding through monsters rather than solving puzzles, quests, traps, etc. monsters are just a tiny fraction of the things that can make an adventure, and it's a huge shame that Turbine is going for the lowest-common-denominator now when DDO used to be difficult and unique in the world of MMOs. i left other MMOs because i find it excruciatingly boring to spam my #1 key to make boring numbers appear over targets' heads. i could pull a lever in Vegas if i wanted to watch numbers go by.

the most fun of DDO is not in the hack'n'slash, it's in the challenging quests and dungeon designs with the plethora of options available to solve them. you do realize that killing things doesn't directly reward you at all, right? the shift away from non-combat solutions is a huge problem for the game, and i can't see myself staying for very much longer as this trend continues.

the sorts of things that PnP Clerics brought which were very powerful tools... things like:

Scrying / Clairvoyance / Discern Location
Weather Manipulation
Fly (!!!)
Zone of Truth
Consecrate/Desecrate
Light and Darkness (my god, i can't ****ing believe there are no light mechanics in this game?! don't talk to me about Rainbow in the Dark...)
Stone Shape / Wall of Stone
Wind Wall
Dimensional Anchor (there's teleporting demons in here....)
Spell Immunity / Spell Turning
Imbue With Spell Ability
Anti-Life Shell / Repulsion
Regeneration (!!!)
Anti-Magic Field (trolololol your raid members!)
Holy Aura
Storm of Vengeance
Gate (Summon Monster 9 just is not blowing my skirt up....)
Shapechange (cross your fingers it might come when Druids do... soon...)
Mislead (seriously, Illusion and Divination need about twenty new spells each...)
Moment of Prescience (!!!)
Grasping / Crushing /Clenching Hand
Prismatic Sphere / Wall
Time Stop (giggle...)

just a huge range of fantastical effects which are just not in the game. where's the magic? where's the fantasy? oh look. you started a fire, ho hum. let's ask the monsters to kindly stand in it now because we have to do yet more damage. Crowd Control and finesse? what's that? you mean games are meant to require skill instead of mindless, reflexive, Pavlovian, obsessive-compulsive combat grinding?

i'd rather have all my teeth pulled than sit through one more monser-killing grindfest.

thank god for roleplaying groups and challenge modes.

To code all that, and then be able to create a balance(so people dont cry about this class being overpowered etc.) would require mammoth resources. And to be able to make it a commercially successful game would still be a challenge, imo.
So I am satisfied with what we have. At least it is not the regular, kill 50 mobs to get 20 XP kind of game.
So I will just ask for 3 PrE for all classes and 1 capstone, and then equal number of spell from each school at each level. Yes, that would keep me satisfied for long. Because then I would be busy demanding that those new spells work as intended.

[joneb1999]

Anybody who wants to build a BattleCleric correctly would be neglecting the main reason to build a BattleCleric- Divine Might-if they went HOrc. While HOrcs are fine when not worrying about DM, most will go Human for no penalty to CHA. A 32-point build can go 16 CHA, 16 STR, 16 CON, 10 WIS, and dump DEX and INT, with levelups in STR. 3 Paladin gives CHA boost to saves (and 16 + 2 enhancements + 6 item +2 tome gives a very nice 26 CHA for 8 boost to EVERY save) along with minor immunities and 2 Monk gives Evasion, plus gives a 2 point stacking boost to one stat at the penalty of a 2 point stacking deduction to others.



I agree with you in healing power, the Cleric wins. For melee builds, Clerics can tie Favored Souls, but they take more to be built right, and building one as a HOrc is simply building one DEAD WRONG. The penalty BattleClerics take is one of healing power, as they are usually splashing up to 5 levels of other classes. 3 Paladin/2 Monk is what I would splash; this gives me Evasion and an 8-point boost to ALL SAVES. As I only get up to 15 Cleric, all I need are level 8 spells (not much good for BattleClerics at level 9-only True Resurrection which is useful but not worth taking two more levels of Cleric for) and lower requiring a WIS of 18: 10 + 2 tome + 6 item gives me that. To make up for the healing power loss, there is Radiant Servant. Having your turns recharge is very useful, and using them for healing as well as damage is even better.


Now compare the Human BattleCleric (as posted above- 15CLR/3PAL/2MNK) to your WF Favored Soul (20 Favored Soul):

WF: Enhancements to Greatswords (19-20 X2 crit profile)
Immunities
DR 10/?
Power Attack
Full Healing Power through 20 Favored Soul levels.
Alignment does not have to be Lawful Good.

Human: No healing penalty (actually, healing amp enhancements)
Immunity to Disesase (negates one of the WF Immunities)
Higher Saves
Evasion
More Feats
Radiant Servant


Compare for yourself. I'd call it a tie.

I would rather have my Horc BC (cleric 16/fighter 2)with 1 level less of DM but equally higher strength just for the extra 1 to hit and to skills and weight I can carry instead of 1 more point of damage on a timer. I have immunities on GS goggles. Ill have a little more sp. I wont have the resistancies but I will have so much more dps with all the other Horc benefits. Maybe its an idea to experiment with adding monk levels though. Dunno. It may work in synergy with certain Horc benefits that require depleted hp to kick in.

[AtomicMew]

Sorry, but do we need this comparison? We just had a thread here a week ago. How is this helping either class?

It helps because it brings attention to the imbalance between the two classes, which will hopefully get Turbine to address the issue.

Like you, I would consider myself an experienced divine player. I have played multiple clerics and multiple FvS, and IMO, the margin between FvS and clerics is large, with FvS far out ahead. From my own anecdotal experience, wings alone make FvS far superior, even if FvS had identical stats otherwise. Of course, when comparison, most people don't take into account the benefit of wings, since it is impossible to quantify (unlike say, healing capacity/SP/DPs etc. I know you disagree, but I think you can see that more and more people are thinking FvS are superior.

That said, I am enjoying the undead killing power of the cleric. I have a first life cleric going through necro-4 right now, and it is hella fun winning the kill count against folks with 500+ past lives

[Oracle_Gil]

It helps because it brings attention to the imbalance between the two classes, which will hopefully get Turbine to address the issue.

Like you, I would consider myself an experienced divine player. I have played multiple clerics and multiple FvS, and IMO, the margin between FvS and clerics is large, with FvS far out ahead. From my own anecdotal experience, wings alone make FvS far superior, even if FvS had identical stats otherwise. Of course, when comparison, most people don't take into account the benefit of wings, since it is impossible to quantify (unlike say, healing capacity/SP/DPs etc. I know you disagree, but I think you can see that more and more people are thinking FvS are superior.

That said, I am enjoying the undead killing power of the cleric. I have a first life cleric going through necro-4 right now, and it is hella fun winning the kill count against folks with 500+ past lives
I want to go for 3 cleric past lifes now. I would never shrine for undead quests... just be a pied piper and then turn.

I dont think that is how imbalance of class is brought into notice. If I was a developer, instead of trusting the forums which represents the voice of those who post more, and more persistently; I will just check the total number of recent builds on the server. Much easier than going through piles of opinion based of half understood facts (we dont know but just assume that game is like this and that).
Then I would take into account the 'newly arrived' factor; e.g. if FvS were given a new ability, I would disregard a few weeks after rolling out that ability, because everybody would like to play that more.

Then I would look if FvS active builds are far far >> than cleric builds or not. If not, I would consider the game to be balanced. And I would check this regularly as a schedule, rather than on occasions.
After such a difference is noticeable, I would nerf/enhance a character, depending on other classes. e.g. if both number of active builds for FvS and cleric are >> average classes builds, I will nerf FvS. If it is << than average, I would enhance it.

After I have taken the action and everything, I would then come to forums and check if people are talking about it. To show them that I care about their opinion I would slip a post that I will look into it. That would be nice PR, well deserved too as I always am doing my duty to check the balance of game irrespective of others noticing it.

This way would be more scientific and logical rather than an opinionated decision which may break a game.

[AtomicMew]

I dont think that is how imbalance of class is brought into notice. If I was a developer, instead of trusting the forums which represents the voice of those who post more, and more persistently; I will just check the total number of recent builds on the server. Much easier than going through piles of opinion based of half understood facts (we dont know but just assume that game is like this and that).
Then I would take into account the 'newly arrived' factor; e.g. if FvS were given a new ability, I would disregard a few weeks after rolling out that ability, because everybody would like to play that more.

Then I would look if FvS active builds are far far >> than cleric builds or not. If not, I would consider the game to be balanced. And I would check this regularly as a schedule, rather than on occasions.
After such a difference is noticeable, I would nerf/enhance a character, depending on other classes. e.g. if both number of active builds for FvS and cleric are >> average classes builds, I will nerf FvS. If it is << than average, I would enhance it.

After I have taken the action and everything, I would then come to forums and check if people are talking about it. To show them that I care about their opinion I would slip a post that I will look into it. That would be nice PR, well deserved too as I always am doing my duty to check the balance of game irrespective of others noticing it.

This way would be more scientific and logical rather than an opinionated decision which may break a game.

Fair enough. However, you'd come to the same conclusion.

Controlling for the fact that FvS aren't F2P, FvS are way more popular than clerics. They were, even before U9. The only reason you see clerics in comparable numbers is because FvS aren't F2P.

[Oracle_Gil]

Fair enough. However, you'd come to the same conclusion.

Controlling for the fact that FvS aren't F2P, FvS are way more popular than clerics. They were, even before U9. The only reason you see clerics in comparable numbers is because FvS aren't F2P.

No, I was not concluding. Those were hypothetical numbers. I dont really know about overpowered. I play this game as a flavor, somehow as of now all classes I picked turned out to be very strong and self-sufficient by coincidence.
I played paladin, I wanted a demon fighter so I took smites and KoH(i think), it turned out that its dps was amazing and highest among best and it was very self-sufficent. Then I wanted to try cleric - I liked the arrogant sound of cellimas, so I made a cleric but I wanted to be agressive and arrogant like her and just not heal. Then RS came along when I was high lvl and I suddenly found myself wanting compared to other clerics - who could heal better without scrolls and cast too. So I converted it to divine caster with RS, and it was no longer a not-healer.
Then trying necromancer, they revamped it in a major way.
Then when I wanted to try a water mage based theme of sorcerer, savants came along making it very easy for me.
I dont know if it was luck or what, but any class I played, changed for better. I like that the game is dynamic. It keeps changing and is not boring.
Next I want to try a bard, maybe while I am in process of levelling it up, they will make changes to that too
Frankly I think all classes need some nerf...that will keep all satisfied because it will need cooperation to complete even the easiest of quests. However, it is not a desirable situation as during lean hours, people will be frustrated if they cant complete the quests solo, or complete them with bad groups.

[Iaga]

To the few people talking about souls having to worry about CHA, that's not the case. Starting with a base of 8 is enough to allow you to cast your level 9 spells with minimal effort (and they get ~29 SP per 2 cha i think? trivial amount really)

As for the cleric aura, while nice, is not a huge issue. Dealing with small amounts of incoming damage isn't really an issue. It's burst damage that a healer needs to worry about and the aura isn't gonna help there (although the burst will) If small amounts of damage are an issue, the free soul CLW capstone can do just as good a job at non-critical healing.

Don't get me wrong, both classes are valid. The differences aren't big enough (IMO) to make one class not worth playing.

20 evoker soul here by the way - for perspective.

[good_ole_corwin]

As for the cleric aura, while nice, is not a huge issue. Dealing with small amounts of incoming damage isn't really an issue. It's burst damage that a healer needs to worry about and the aura isn't gonna help there (although the burst will) If small amounts of damage are an issue, the free soul CLW capstone can do just as good a job at non-critical healing.

So, an individual (=targetting and casting for every separate receiver requiring, on timer between casts), 10.5 HPs (average, before applying any multipliers) CLW does the same job as a sustained, no other action requiring (after the initial cast, duh) aoe 7 Hps (before applying any multipliers, but lets not forget that those will be higher for a RSII cleric) every 2 seconds heal?

While the base number seems low, with empower healing, maximize and superior ardor on and cleric life magic IV, the aura translates into 25 HPs per tick (2 seconds) to everybody around you, with up to 18% (with some rare gear, I personally have 15%) chance of critting for at least 1.75 times the amount (depending again on gear and enhancements), add in hopefully some healing amp on the receivers end and... Sure, its not a huge issue, it will just keep the melees with full bars through pretty much all trash mobs fights and save the cleric SPs, bursts and actions (=let him do more damage or CC) even in many boss fights.

You can argue that melees should carry healing pots or whatever if they want their bars filled up, and that full bars arent all that necessary, but full (or almost full) bars equal less risk from burst damage and melees not having to use pots in combat equals faster melee dps from them (in the case of the aura, at no cost of the clerics dps either, as explained above). Sure its not a dealbreaker, universal life or death deciding aspect of the class, but then again, what is?

[jwdaniels]

Whatever a Favored Soul is specced to do, it will do better than a cleric, with the exception of healing. Anything a FvS is not specced to do, it will do worse than a cleric. Favored Souls are generally designed to do one thing incredibly well, and all of them can heal at least adequately. Clerics do everything well, and add in the best healing.

The question of which is "better" basically comes down to what you want to do with the character.

The fact that this conversation continues to pop up all the time indicates that the classes are balanced - note that balanced does not mean equal.

[baddax]

I dont think that is how imbalance of class is brought into notice. If I was a developer, instead of trusting the forums which represents the voice of those who post more, and more persistently; I will just check the total number of recent builds on the server. Much easier than going through piles of opinion based of half understood facts (we dont know but just assume that game is like this and that).
Then I would take into account the 'newly arrived' factor; e.g. if FvS were given a new ability, I would disregard a few weeks after rolling out that ability, because everybody would like to play that more.

Then I would look if FvS active builds are far far >> than cleric builds or not. If not, I would consider the game to be balanced. And I would check this regularly as a schedule, rather than on occasions.
After such a difference is noticeable, I would nerf/enhance a character, depending on other classes. e.g. if both number of active builds for FvS and cleric are >> average classes builds, I will nerf FvS. If it is << than average, I would enhance it.

After I have taken the action and everything, I would then come to forums and check if people are talking about it. To show them that I care about their opinion I would slip a post that I will look into it. That would be nice PR, well deserved too as I always am doing my duty to check the balance of game irrespective of others noticing it.

This way would be more scientific and logical rather than an opinionated decision which may break a game.

DDO Oracle says:
Thelanis.
Level 20 Chars by Class
Class# of Chars
Cleric1364
Sorcerer 1297
Wizard 1175
FavoredSoul 1113
Monk 993
Fighter 928
Barbarian 749
Paladin 589
Ranger 588
Rogue 569
Bard 535

The nice thing about computers is they store reams of data. Just turning the data into relevant information and making necessary decisions based on said information is sometimes more difficult.

[Dagolar]

Actually, we seem to be breaking into several different arguments.
The only argument I personally I have made is that favored souls would -likely- overpower clerics if they also received a healing prc, at least as far as healing goes. However, the fvs prcs all look as they'll combat based, while the cleric prcs seem to be more utility based (excepting Warpriest). The difference in prestige classes is what REALLY keeps the two classes in balance, as it allows them to focus on entirely different builds.

Nevertheless, a favored soul that claims not to be able to do any healing (and there are many) is doing something severely wrong; Even the most combat-specced fvs can manage healing just fine, even if it's just an endless spam of non-mass cure critical- no fvs build doesn't leave room for a heal spell or two, even with the limited slots, and the vast sp pool more than allows for casting versatility.

I'm more curious as to how the prcs will evolve to maintain this balance; Especially Exorcist of the Silver Flame, which seems as if it'd either overlap with Radiant Servant's improved turning abilities, or be limited to outsiders, which ignores how potent the Duality is to the Silver Flame. Perhaps it'll just be an overfocused RS, losing heals in return for better turning.. and what'll RS 3 be like, at that? And will Angel of Vengeance ever be a meaningful build, or will the other fvs prcs eclipse it?

I'm looking forward to the new class this year as much as anyone, but I'm for more excited to see how the prestige classes develop.

[phum]

DDO Oracle says:
Thelanis.
Level 20 Chars by Class
Class# of Chars
Cleric1364
Sorcerer 1297
Wizard 1175
FavoredSoul 1113
Monk 993
Fighter 928
Barbarian 749
Paladin 589
Ranger 588
Rogue 569
Bard 535

The nice thing about computers is they store reams of data. Just turning the data into relevant information and making necessary decisions based on said information is sometimes more difficult.

Yep. Fvs is a p2p class and cleric an f2p one. Also, this approach goes by ppl playing what is strong. ddo isn't that simple and many ppl like to play flavor builds. Builds, that are their own, not some1 elses. Although, I would guess this is close to the method being used^^ It results in large changes coming quite late and more balancing changes afterwards

[Markvar]

I have run and do run a lot of healers. Both FVS and Cleric, and the key thing I find is this. At the level ranges of about 8-16 it seems that the FVS is a more stoic and capable healer and support member of a party. its spells are varied enough to be capable of healing a group as well as provide the buffing to help reduce damage to party members as well as buffing to help increase damage output by party members, they can swing and do respectable damage on their own and have some solo capability for the most part. However with the lower initial spell selection, for the most part (and I repeat for the most part) at the lower levels its tough to heal a party with cure light wounds at level 3 when it is all you have. In reverse of that, healing in levels 17+ usually requires a higher level of buffing for defense and offense as well as healing, resurrecting, removing conditions and neg leveling, etc in which the versatility at helaing are vastly effected. After all if your party takes more damage you have to heal it too (as well if the party deals more damage they take the monsters down quicker which means less damage taken by the party). However I would say that from the levels of 17 and particularly at 20th level, clerics have the upper hand, not only with the increased heals per second to coin a frame, but with the added support capability. A FVS was meant to be a cross between melee and healing and it is very good at it, a cleric was solely meant to be a healer, and it is very good at it as well. Again playing both, at all levels, if your planning to run a capped toon for a while, I would say the cleric is a stronger healer, however if your a gonna tr your toon fast, then the FVS is the way to go.

Lastly I have noticed one thing at epic levels, when I run my FVS, I am asked if I am "healer speced" fairly often. Thankfully I can answer yes, however have heard many a times of FVS who reply "I can heal" no be accepted into parties as their not pure healer speced. As for battle clerics, at 20th level, I see very few successful battle cleric builds, the few I have, tend to be multi class and/or multi tr, and people just dont want them to act as healers in upper levels, as the more expierienced players have learned that although they have the ability, the player with the battle cleric (or even fvs), tends to want to take a more aggressive role, and ergo often does not heal as effectively, or have thier keys set up for quick and reponsive healing. Clerics are used to healing and tend to be faster better operators, that I have noticed, FVS players tend to jump into battle a little to quick or readily (I say this as a generic statement, knowing that there are pure healer FVS out there) and often die before a cleric healer in raid groups.

Oh and one last thing, I also run tr clerics, and have to say, the increase in the DC's to your healing spells definatly has a large impact on your crit heals, where as the FVS spell pen, reall does not help, so a multi tr cleric, doe perform far better, particularly at the third cleric life on a toon, its a big difference from 150 hp hits to 500 hp hits (assuming cure mod here guys) when your crit heals land far more often.

Just my opinion. Nothing against anyone, or the choice, as I run both and am very happy with both as healers. These are just my observations.

[joneb1999]

Markvar like you said in an especially intense battle a clerics HPS, heal per second, is amazing with a radiant servant aura runnning, rs bursts and mass heal/cures, plus maybe scrolls all in a matter of a very few seconds. Thats fast. That has never really been properly accounted for. The best Shroud I ever played had 5 or 6 healing types taking up slots and in part 4 we hammered Harry in one round as if we were the monster. I don't think there was one death.

Trying not to be too much of a brag my BC contributed well having the HPS of the above coupled with the DPS of a near maxed strength Horc (non fighter type) with near all the Horc bonuses, minus those enhancements that rely on half health and below. As far as Im concerned in a party situation FvS and clerics are equal but probably FvS solo better.

Maybe HPS should be accounted for when taking into consideration the argument of Cleric Vs FvS.