Direct comparison, Cleric vs FvS - Give the Clerics love?

[phum]

DPS: Like you said BC's out dps FvS. Any Fvs why even slightly want to compete with a Horc BC will have to be a WF. Beeing a WF means a really crappy Capstone and lower self heal.
Also the the Horc BC can keep his aura while fighting, helping his DPS and is enough for most quests up to normal Amrath.

I slightly disagree with this^^ If self healing in melee is taken into account, so imo should the dot.. It's hard to cathegorize the class abilities to just healing/melee/casting, when they are really very intertwined or how do I say it, interdependent?.. Anyway, domains ftw

[mwgarn]

Make one of each Both are fun and strong in their own way. I have a half-elf pure cleric with the fighter delineator that I love playing, and I have a big gray/gold WF favor soul that is a lot of fun to play as well! (corse I still love my wizard the most)

[xtchizobr]

All Clerics are missing, IMO, is one or two (or OK, a few more) really potent situational spells.

that's what the game needs in general, though.

i'm pretty disgusted by the spell overhaul. the focus of the game's design is just shifting more and more toward grinding through monsters rather than solving puzzles, quests, traps, etc. monsters are just a tiny fraction of the things that can make an adventure, and it's a huge shame that Turbine is going for the lowest-common-denominator now when DDO used to be difficult and unique in the world of MMOs. i left other MMOs because i find it excruciatingly boring to spam my #1 key to make boring numbers appear over targets' heads. i could pull a lever in Vegas if i wanted to watch numbers go by.

the most fun of DDO is not in the hack'n'slash, it's in the challenging quests and dungeon designs with the plethora of options available to solve them. you do realize that killing things doesn't directly reward you at all, right? the shift away from non-combat solutions is a huge problem for the game, and i can't see myself staying for very much longer as this trend continues.

the sorts of things that PnP Clerics brought which were very powerful tools... things like:

Scrying / Clairvoyance / Discern Location
Weather Manipulation
Fly (!!!)
Zone of Truth
Consecrate/Desecrate
Light and Darkness (my god, i can't ****ing believe there are no light mechanics in this game?! don't talk to me about Rainbow in the Dark...)
Stone Shape / Wall of Stone
Wind Wall
Dimensional Anchor (there's teleporting demons in here....)
Spell Immunity / Spell Turning
Imbue With Spell Ability
Anti-Life Shell / Repulsion
Regeneration (!!!)
Anti-Magic Field (trolololol your raid members!)
Holy Aura
Storm of Vengeance
Gate (Summon Monster 9 just is not blowing my skirt up....)
Shapechange (cross your fingers it might come when Druids do... soon...)
Mislead (seriously, Illusion and Divination need about twenty new spells each...)
Moment of Prescience (!!!)
Grasping / Crushing /Clenching Hand
Prismatic Sphere / Wall
Time Stop (giggle...)

just a huge range of fantastical effects which are just not in the game. where's the magic? where's the fantasy? oh look. you started a fire, ho hum. let's ask the monsters to kindly stand in it now because we have to do yet more damage. Crowd Control and finesse? what's that? you mean games are meant to require skill instead of mindless, reflexive, Pavlovian, obsessive-compulsive combat grinding?

i'd rather have all my teeth pulled than sit through one more monser-killing grindfest.

thank god for roleplaying groups and challenge modes.

[tgu]

I am a bit confused for two reasons.

Ok i really must disagree at this one:

DPS: Like you said BC's out dps FvS. Any Fvs why even slightly want to compete with a Horc BC will have to be a WF. Beeing a WF means a really crappy Capstone and lower self heal. Also the the Horc BC can keep his aura while fighting, helping his DPS and is enough for most quests up to normal Amrath.

1.You disagreed with what I said, yet only mentioned Aura while fighting.

I'd take Sirgog's Soul Survivor before a Horc BC anyday of the week, but I wouldn't stop to say I think Horc BC is a cool concept and works (that may get even cooler when the PrE comes out). For now, DR + immunities + HP vs damage. A dead healer, is dead.

2. Then, you took each section and nick picked.

If you disagree, great. I was hoping for some content or at least some in-depth look.

Let me explain further:

Raidhealing: Well i dont really see why a FvS can really outheal in a raid.

Keeping people alive is all that matters, there is no competition to outheal

Survivability: is really not that much at high levels, only wings that put them ahead, WF immunities are not worth much at cap.

You can't forget DR, HP, and overlooking immunities and wings? Kind of confused how you can just ignore survival.

Bladbarriers: All FvS stuff only helps light spells.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhan...of_Vengeance_I - Read it. To quote, "You deal 20% additional damage with spells that deal fire, physical, or untyped damage,"

I just want to see your facts or sound reasoning, that is all. You overlooked BB/survivability.

[Habreno]

Anybody who wants to build a BattleCleric correctly would be neglecting the main reason to build a BattleCleric- Divine Might-if they went HOrc. While HOrcs are fine when not worrying about DM, most will go Human for no penalty to CHA. A 32-point build can go 16 CHA, 16 STR, 16 CON, 10 WIS, and dump DEX and INT, with levelups in STR. 3 Paladin gives CHA boost to saves (and 16 + 2 enhancements + 6 item +2 tome gives a very nice 26 CHA for 8 boost to EVERY save) along with minor immunities and 2 Monk gives Evasion, plus gives a 2 point stacking boost to one stat at the penalty of a 2 point stacking deduction to others.



I agree with you in healing power, the Cleric wins. For melee builds, Clerics can tie Favored Souls, but they take more to be built right, and building one as a HOrc is simply building one DEAD WRONG. The penalty BattleClerics take is one of healing power, as they are usually splashing up to 5 levels of other classes. 3 Paladin/2 Monk is what I would splash; this gives me Evasion and an 8-point boost to ALL SAVES. As I only get up to 15 Cleric, all I need are level 8 spells (not much good for BattleClerics at level 9-only True Resurrection which is useful but not worth taking two more levels of Cleric for) and lower requiring a WIS of 18: 10 + 2 tome + 6 item gives me that. To make up for the healing power loss, there is Radiant Servant. Having your turns recharge is very useful, and using them for healing as well as damage is even better.


Now compare the Human BattleCleric (as posted above- 15CLR/3PAL/2MNK) to your WF Favored Soul (20 Favored Soul):

WF: Enhancements to Greatswords (19-20 X2 crit profile)
Immunities
DR 10/?
Power Attack
Full Healing Power through 20 Favored Soul levels.
Alignment does not have to be Lawful Good.

Human: No healing penalty (actually, healing amp enhancements)
Immunity to Disesase (negates one of the WF Immunities)
Higher Saves
Evasion
More Feats
Radiant Servant


Compare for yourself. I'd call it a tie.

[voodoogroves]

Honestly, until they get another PRE the big advantage is it's easier to multiclass a cleric ;-) (you lose less)

[ThePrincipal]

cleric is the better healer because of the +25% boost to empower healing and with the recharging radiant aura you can aura heal through most content.

cleric is the better melee, divine might +8 damage is unmatchable by the FVS

cleric is the better buffer since it can swap buffs at shrines to get situational buffs/spells

fvs is the better offensive caster because of the defuffs aura and bigger sp pool

fvs is better defensively because of the higher saves, dr, and wings

[azrael4h]

Bladbarriers: Why sould they be better? All FvS stuff only helps light spells. So its down to Maximise empower and Potency IV. All things are not exclusive to FVS's.

The FvS PrE boosts Untyped and Fire spells' damage by 20% on the first tier, 10% on the second. Probably another 10% on the third, in 3050 when it is released.

They are technically equally on light and alignment spells, assuming similar gear and enhancements.

[DoctorWhofan]

The FvS PrE boosts Untyped and Fire spells' damage by 20% on the first tier, 10% on the second. Probably another 10% on the third, in 3050 when it is released.

They are technically equally on light and alignment spells, assuming similar gear and enhancements.

and how many fire spells are there on the divine list? 2? 3? Until there are more, not a good example.

Flexiablity? Clerics win that without even trying.

As for surviviblity, that is not just a class/character thing. It Comes down to the players, too. My 345 hp Drow cleric can do epics. Because I am a smart and experianced player. That RA aura can benefit me if I am by myself. And GS clickies of displacement (and the permament blur) help, too, along with the usual FORT items.

So really, on paper, FvS looks like a winner, but in reality the lines are FAR more blurred. It comes down to what you want to do, and how you want to play.

Can we stop arguing this now? I gave into the OP last night, but really? Do we really need to say "FvS is better?" or "Clerics are the uberist?" Is this really helping, at the end of the day?

[jwdaniels]

Comparing Cleric and Favored Soul is silly, because the two classes are exteremely different. However, if you must compare them you can't do it the way the OP set out because the FvS requires more attributes than the cleric and has fewer spell slots, therefore much less versatility.

The Radiant Servant cleric is a better healer than a Favored Soul, even one that is heal-specced, becuase it is extremely rare to run into a situation where the Favored Soul's spell point advantage really comes into play. This is due to the healing aura, the extra bonuses to healing and the cleric's ability to mitigate more damage via crowd control. I say the cleric has better crowd control in this comparison based on increased spell selection plus the ease in maxing the casting stat - a Favored Soul maxing Charisma for SP purposes will have a harder time also maxing Wisdom for DC.

If you want to play a melee/buff type character that can heal just fine, then Favored Soul is the definite choice. This is because you can add points to melee-oriented stats with a Favored Soul and dump casting stats much easier than you can on a cleric because the Favored Soul gets more base SP and, when focusing on healing and buffing, really doesn't need to worry about casting DCs for anything they cast (except blade barrier, but even that is still effective - albeit diminished - with a lower save DC).

Personally, I think the more interesting comparison is between the Favored Soul and the Paladin.

[ShadowFlash]

I like to think of my RS aura as better than FvS DR10, as it can provide even more of a "cushion" to not only you, but those around you. I don't use the Aura for "healing" per se, but as a VERY good form of damage mitigation. Come stand in my yellow pee cloud and feel the warmth

RS burst vs. FvS SP = burst is on seperate timer...this alone makes it indespensible.
melee = don't forget WF FvS's are almost always THF greatswords...my dwarf 17/2/1 DMIII TWF's Daxes, so you unfortunately have to throw the THF vs TWF debate into the mix as well, as it's much more common for clerics to TWF.
offensive casting = high SP and AoV does make the FvS king here, but remember that an RS can splash up to 2 levels and still maintain full level 20 searing lights and Divine Punishments. The FvS does have it's shoulder cannon though

I like 'em both, but I play clerics for the versatility. IF they ever release Warpriest, there will be many clerics losing a lot of sleep on how to cope without RS.

[azrael4h]

and how many fire spells are there on the divine list? 2? 3? Until there are more, not a good example.

Flexiablity? Clerics win that without even trying.

As for surviviblity, that is not just a class/character thing. It Comes down to the players, too. My 345 hp Drow cleric can do epics. Because I am a smart and experianced player. That RA aura can benefit me if I am by myself. And GS clickies of displacement (and the permament blur) help, too, along with the usual FORT items.

So really, on paper, FvS looks like a winner, but in reality the lines are FAR more blurred. It comes down to what you want to do, and how you want to play.

Can we stop arguing this now? I gave into the OP last night, but really? Do we really need to say "FvS is better?" or "Clerics are the uberist?" Is this really helping, at the end of the day?

If you had bothered to read the post, WITH the quoted portion, you would see I was addressing a single point from another post; that the FvS' PrE only boosted light spells. Do not hallucinate that my post was insisting that either class was better or worse, as it makes you look like a fool.

[Sarisa]

It's likely either an oversight or a bug, but FvS's are currently immune to Quell Intercession. Clerics, Paladins, and Rangers are not.

[good_ole_corwin]

It's likely either an oversight or a bug, but FvS's are currently immune to Quell Intercession. Clerics, Paladins, and Rangers are not.

You reminded me of a point that nobody has mentioned in this thread in favor of a cleric... As a cleric you can play a staring contest with a beholder and still heal AND remove neg levels/ability dmg. And while quelled too, even though if what you said is true thats kinda a moot point.

[Raoull]

Survivability: is really not that much at high levels, only wings that put them ahead, WF immunities are not worth much at cap.

Bladbarriers: Why sould they be better? All FvS stuff only helps light spells. So its down to Maximise empower and Potency IV. All things are not exclusive to FVS's.

Um.... I think 34-40 HPs and 10 DR are better than "not worth much", and I play a cleric. HPs are huge, and 30-40 is not an insubstantial amount. That's GLF/SFL.... I'd look twice at a cleric that didn't bother to equip one of those at end game. Heck, I even bother with a 15HP guild slotted item when I'm raid healing. And 10 DR? I gladly waste a gear slot on 5DR (I carry two different ones, depending on situation).

As to BB.... from the AoV entry in ddowiki: "You now deal 30% additional damage with spells that deal fire, physical, or untyped damage. "

FvS simply have a better BB.

[Rakian_Knight]

Right now, I think claiming one is more powerful then the other is kind of premature because neither of them are finished. Once all the PrE's are finished for both classes I think we can make a safe conclusion however, until then I don't think any of this is really accurate.

Clerics need: Radiant Servant III, Warpriest, Exorcist of the Silver Flame, more spell choices, and maybe Domains
Favored Soul needs: Divine Avenger, Angel on Vengeance III, Becon of Hope

[Ullysses]

First, domains and RS3 ftw!

My only issue with FVS, is the split in abilities. Cha for SP, wis for dc's. I see very few FVS with high scores in both. Very few seem to be good at casting and melee. This is more an issue with how they are built than the class itself I guess. Too many are diehard min/max'ers, and it's hard to min/max a FVS without sacrificing a lot.

Most clerics will have higher dc's than the average FVS, many by several points! Clerics seem to make more rounded, versatile toons, while most FVS are more specialized.

FVS, on paper, are a bit stronger than clerics, but it is difficult to make use of all their strengths on one toon. Both classes can excel if built correctly, but FVS are a bit harder to fit everything in.

[issiana]

on the DR that FvS get.....

Stoneskin.

either from umd (which having to wand it ever 3-5 hit is a pain i agree) or from earthen guard procing items (DT or cove trinket)

but that said, i found my cleric at lvl 20 was never lacking in the DR department with self buffing stoneskin. I like FvS as much as cleric but just feel that as has being mentioned by many (looking at you doc) a well made/played cleric is just as potent as a well made/played FvS.

The key here is player skill.

lately on my TR i've had to endure some of the most horrid builds of both class. the lack of the basic survivabilty buff spells on both classes has being shocking to see - but not nearly as shocking as the lack of desire to understand why those buffs are so important
I cant wait till my TR'ing is over and I can go back to being the Cleric my character was built to be.

[DoctorWhofan]

on the DR that FvS get.....

Stoneskin.

either from umd (which having to wand it ever 3-5 hit is a pain i agree) or from earthen guard procing items (DT or cove trinket)

but that said, i found my cleric at lvl 20 was never lacking in the DR department with self buffing stoneskin. I like FvS as much as cleric but just feel that as has being mentioned by many (looking at you doc) a well made/played cleric is just as potent as a well made/played FvS.

The key here is player skill.

lately on my TR i've had to endure some of the most horrid builds of both class. the lack of the basic survivabilty buff spells on both classes has being shocking to see - but not nearly as shocking as the lack of desire to understand why those buffs are so important
I cant wait till my TR'ing is over and I can go back to being the Cleric my character was built to be.

<<Hides behind a tree in Lothlorien>> me? said such things? NEVER!

THat is exactyl my thoughts. I am sure a person skilled at FvS could take mine as is and say it is uber. However, I find FvS lacking. But that is me.

[baddax]

The key here is player skill.

I would add player skill in building as well as playing their chosen class.
Right now only 1 pre per class is out. One is a healing focused pre the other is a offensive casting focused pre so its not really apples to apples comparison.

Not taking sides (as a dont currently have a capped cleric but do have a capped fvs) but few people have mentioned spell flexibility as a disadvantage to the fvs class but alot of this can be overcome by a well stocked supply of various scrolls.