Direct comparison, Cleric vs FvS - Give the Clerics love?

[tgu]

Warning: This is not a post to take a dump on cleric. This is NOT to say clerics can't be fun, or that clerics are semi-close to FvS or as viable in terms of healing. This is a post to show that FvS are *currently* stronger, and why. This could be used as a reference point for someone wanting to know the difference between the two, and *MAYBE* get clerics some love.

*I know* there has been a number of previous post like this, but as I look at both classes things stand out. The biggest one I noticed is that FvS matches or slight oust Cleric in a lot of ways. Here is the tail of the tape:

So, I wanted to do a mini-showdown/conclusions:

Raw Healing
Cleric (RS - <passive + active> + Emp. Healing enh)
vs
FvS(More SP) - Sov. Host gets free heal every 6 sec
Cleric wins -

Melee
Cleric - 18/2 Half-Orc Cleric - Half-orc has more damage (slightly), more options
vs
WF FVS - More survival, no multi-class, more SP, better raid healer, stronger BB's
FvS wins - barely for *melee only*, but WF can raid healwithout sacrifice

Caster -
Cleric - 20 Evoker Drow or Human (1 more point of wisdom, PrE only affects undead)
vs
FvS - 20 Evoker Drow or Human (much better caster PrE in every way, better empower) - Update 9 ftw?
FvS easily wins

Perks/Added benefits
Cleric - Divine Might, Heavy armor, Spell swapping, Easier to multi-class, more spell slots (6v4), death capstone
vs
FvS - +bonus to wpn type/faith line, WINGS, DR10 (12/15) - Better all-around capstone, more SP
FvS wins - Wings + a better capstone, while Clerics DM isn't strong enough (short time)...yet


Conclusion - WF FvS can oust it's melee opposite in Cleric, just like Evoker FvS will be a stronger caster. The ONLY difference that Clerics make up is slightly stronger healing - and most people have said (read through any healer post) that they don't prefer being a HEALBOT. So, with this said...it would be nice to see clerics get more slightly better PrE's, and a bit more caster love.

Above all - play what you enjoy most. Just know that Clerics could use a little love right now.

Anything else I've missed/comments, do tell!

[blade_of_will]

There is a difference between being a healbot and a class with healing as a core feature. Not disagreeing with you, but saying your closing statements aren't very clear.


Also, and to be clear im not very familiar with ether class, is perhaps the advantage of clerics that they can melee or be casters without making sacrifices in healing, where fvs have to sacrifice something to fit one role, and cant change that easily?

[tgu]

Thanks for response blade, let me clear things up

There is a difference between being a healbot and a class with healing as a core feature. Not disagreeing with you, but saying your closing statements aren't very clear.

Also, and to be clear im not very familiar with ether class, is perhaps the advantage of clerics that they can melee or be casters without making sacrifices in healing, where fvs have to sacrifice something to fit one role, and cant change that easily?

Cleric has healing as a core, but outside that core they are not as strong at melee or casting. This really hurts in hybrid roles (healing in raids, then boss beating/soloing/farming). The FvS is going to be the better all-around, and can take up a strong healing position while also doing better melee AND casting.

IN the last part of what you said, Cleric have to sacrifice more in my opinion. They change spells, have more spells, and have better AoE healing...but until more spells come out and their are REALLY hard choices, flexibility of spells doesn't add much. The healing also is minor, and both can heal just fine.

FvS - better all-around
Cleric - slightly dips off in caster or melee hybrid roles

Both are good, it's just FvS is a step or two ahead right now...and U9 with FvS Caster PrE put any discussion to rest. Even melee WF FvS have advantages to their Blade Barriers, which increases them overall

[jaegarnel]

Clerics have more or less passive healing via their aura, which means they don't have to stop what they were doing to heal people unless it's in a really hard fight.
You have to factor that in as well, on average in a quest, clerics will be albe to spend a little more time meleeing or nuking or whatever.

Also, I'd say that even if Favoured Souls are slightly better than a cleric overall, I don't see any issue with that. After all Favoured Soul is a class most players won't have access to.
Why shouldn't a class that you get for high favor or VIP status be better than a standard one? It's the same reason why drow are superior to other races for most classes if you don't have access to 32 point builds.

I'm not advocating pay to win here (after all, a badly played Favoured Soul will be just as useless as a badly played cleric) but access to the class is supposed to be a reward.

PS: I don't have access to Favoured Soul either, but if I ever get to 2500 favor on a server and the class I unlock isn't both good and a little different from a cleric, I'd be disappointed.

[Snormal]

I would say built right a cleric can outheal a fvs almost any day. They're not as good at offensive casting, but really... it's not hard to kill stuff as a cleric with bb and implosion. The FvS PrE is great fun but it's really just adding to something that was already strong, IMO. The biggest weakness of FvS to me is levelling it and spell slots. Choosing between BB and heal at level 12, and not getting the other until 13.

[DoctorWhofan]

Sorry, but do we need this comparison? We just had a thread here a week ago. How is this helping either class?

[tgu]

You have to factor that in as well, on average in a quest, clerics will be able to spend a little more time meleeing or nuking or whatever.

It should be only a little less time spent, and even then their nuking is weaker, but melee might see a slight advantage (making them about equal).

Why shouldn't a class that you get for high favor or VIP status be better than a standard one? It's the same reason why drow are superior to other races for most classes if you don't have access to 32 point builds.

I'm not advocating pay to win here *snip*

I think you basically won here Jaegarnel, I got checked mate. Absolutely right, and that slight edge is probably enough to balance the playing field (free vs unlocked favor). I guess that is one of the "perks" I should have mentioned.

I will say missed another - FvS past life - TR'ing as a FvS is more rewarding (+1 all DC, 20 SP) vs. +1 Conj, +1 turn

Edit:

Sorry, but do we need this comparison? We just had a thread here a week ago. How is this helping either class?

This seems a bit aggressive towards me, almost like saying "do we need this thread? It's been done before, why are you wasting our time"? You rushed it (x1).

Most threads aren't *needed*, they are just there...and I'd hate to hear this thread has been rehashed any more than a lot of other topics.

I wanted to weigh in equally, is this equal? --

Both are equally strong. FvS has the SP but clerics have the Radiant Servant PrE that give them a slight edge in the POWER of the healing.

I personally perfer clerics. I find them far more flexible than FvS.

Really doesn't give much information (SP vs. RS is only the tip of the iceberg), and seems rushed (x2).

[DoctorWhofan]

Since you pulled a quote from another thread, here we go:

Clerics can CHOOSE their spells, they are not locked in like FvS. Also, they canst the most spells in the game, due to the fact they get healing spells for FREE. That gives them (up to) 6 spells per level, instead of the usual 5 that a Wizard gets. They can change out spells easily, making them adaptable for say HoX to doing the Shroud.

While they don't have the SP like FvS, they do have an awesome healing PrE: Radiant Servant. Not only does it free them from having alot of CHA (due to the regen ability of turn undeads) THe healing radiance they emit is pretty powerful.

Finally, and on a more personal level, I like playing them. I personally have more fun playing them and less stress worrying about whether or not I have what I need for this quest. I like being the walking shrine and I like having the ability to have all the healing/buffing/ and killing spells without spending cash to change them out.

[sirgog]

All Clerics are missing, IMO, is one or two (or OK, a few more) really potent situational spells.

Spells like Symbol of Persuasion - not something you necessarily want prepared all the time, but when it's good, it is really good.

It's also worth saying that clerics absolutely dominate anti-undead offensive casting. There's very little undead at endgame right at the moment, but this could change in future.

FvS is definitely ahead right now, though.

[tgu]

Since you pulled a quote from another thread, here we go:

That thread was relatively similar (in bold):

I'm thinking about making a pure healer character and I was wondering if anyone could break down the strengths/weaknesses of a Cleric and Favored Soul, what one has over the other, and who would most likely be the "better healer" in a party. Thanks!

I am going to quote, in a more simple format (no misquoting)

*Clerics can CHOOSE their spells
*they canst the most spells in the game ...making them adaptable
*Radiant Servant... free them from having alot of CHA (..turn undeads)
*I personally have more fun... and less stress worrying.

Thanks for that input, I am glad we got a discussion going on now.

I have seen several threads about spells, and it seems that outside a few levels...aren't most spells defined? In the future, I would like to this choice (5+heal vs 4) + flexibility will (more 6-9 level spells) = a much larger impact. The vibe I get, and from talking to even more veteran players is only small sacrifices have to be made, given the limited range of spells.

As far as the rest, I can see how stress is reduced with more *easy style* healing, and I should say that is a perk. Thanks! I guess as a FvS lover and former WoW player, I forget at times how relatively small perks add up. Thanks again!

[tgu]

All Clerics are missing, IMO, is one or two (or OK, a few more) really potent situational spells.

Spells like Symbol of Persuasion - not something you necessarily want prepared all the time, but when it's good, it is really good.

It's also worth saying that clerics absolutely dominate anti-undead offensive casting. There's very little undead at endgame right at the moment, but this could change in future.

FvS is definitely ahead right now, though.

Thanks Sirgog! As much I tried to rebel against your WF build, you set the tone for WF and melee FvS.

Here is a spell of D&D 3.5 Cleric spells: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Cleric_Spells

As we talk about Symbol of P., and undead shutdown...I think you start up the whole conversation of the future. And with this future, what other 3.5 spells might come to DDO. It just comes full circle in talking about Favored Souls, Clerics, and Soon (TM) Druids. And what nifty possibilities and boundries DDO *can* reach.

[DoctorWhofan]

That thread was relatively similar (in bold):

I am going to quote, in a more simple format (no misquoting)

Thanks for that input, I am glad we got a discussion going on now.

I have seen several threads about spells, and it seems that outside a few levels...aren't most spells defined? In the future, I would like to this choice (5+heal vs 4) + flexibility will (more 6-9 level spells) = a much larger impact. The vibe I get, and from talking to even more veteran players is only small sacrifices have to be made, given the limited range of spells.

As far as the rest, I can see how stress is reduced with more *easy style* healing, and I should say that is a perk. Thanks! I guess as a FvS lover and former WoW player, I forget at times how relatively small perks add up. Thanks again!

I have been playing clerics for 5 years now, and went from when the y could only be healbots til the present day. I have walked the journey through their evolution in this game, and most of my characters are clerics or cleric mixes. Nearly all can heal in some capacity. I have WF clerics and Clogues and FvSs and healing bards.

I perfer flexiblity over all. I have 2 FvS and I am not happy for at time choose a buff or an offensive spell. I have to agonize over it at every level up. I feel I am forced to choose a path, and that path may not be the right one.

FvS are more combat orientated, and offensive casting, due to their PrE. While most htink that gives them a slight edge, which it does in the terms of DPS of a hit/spell damage, I think theflexiblity of a cleric wins overall. I CAN hit things with my mace if I want, or Kill things with my spells or be the walking shrine. Or I can do all three at the same time.

This is subjective, though. Me waving a flag saying "Clerics are the uberist" and handing out panphlets discribing why doesn't really say anything, nor will it put the topic you chose to rest. We have our ways of playing, and mine say clerics are the best. And all the gold wings in the world don't matter to me, for the reasons I play clerics are my own.

[tgu]

Thanks again Doctor, two post and I learned quite a bit from you (no lie).

I have WF clerics and Clogues and FvSs and healing bards.

I laughed there, I have the same mentality. I like to try odd race clerics/FvS, and I've tried a SS bard healer (people rejected my bard though).

Going to try to quote you again in a simple format:

*I perfer flexiblity over all. I have 2 FvS... I have to agonize over it at every level up.
*FvS are more combat orientated
*I think theflexiblity of a cleric wins overall.
*This is subjective, though ...nor will it put the topic you chose to rest.

I can't help it man, you left me wanting to know more. Some that I've learned, more so that you've experienced a lot more in-game. Questions like:

1. Flexibility - how much on *average* will this affect the player?
2. Are most FvS you see in-game combat oriented, heal secondary?
3. Tough question (my original post) - do you think clerics could use more love OR do you think it is balanced?

I know in a lot of these X vs. Y threads it's subjective, but when good knowledge comes in and realistic scenarios are placed...we can see a bigger picture, and hopefully a solid answer. Not extreme subjectives like - "FvS rock, clerics suck! OR FvS are better, because I said so" But more like FvS have less spells, but how much overall does that affect gameplay at low, mid, late game?

[DoctorWhofan]

FvS has more powerful spells, due to PrE, more SP and an extra edge in the melee department.

Clerics can carry the buffs, and healings to bethe group healer, but also all the needed buff and offensive spells without sacrificing anything. THey are more powerful healers due to their PrE.

There is no FvS is more combat orientated or heals second. This is going into the individual's playstyle. FvS can easily be a healer/buffer. But what combat spells and melee did sacrifice to do it, if any?

My level 12 FvS is melee orientated, and cannot heal as effecitvally as my generalist clerics. Or my healing FvS. I pushed my character into the that side of the house, and while he has healing, his low WIS makes his combat spells pretty useless, but chooses to buff overall.


Right? Wrong? not sure. Time will tell.

As for love, well they could finish off the PrE and give both classes more than just one. A few more combat spells would make thecleric's flexiblity actually increase because FvS would have to drop something for the new spells. Giving clerics some AC bonuses perhaps could help, too. Also lowering some of the enhancemnt costs would REALLY make clerics more powerful.

But, at the end of the day, I still get hired to cleric at endgame and Epics. More because of who I am and my playstyle rather my build, but I can still get the job done. All my clerics regardless of race or mix, have this same points: flexiblity, surviviblity, party saving.

So, to answer: FvS or cleric? Either, usually the person behind the keyboard can make the worst build cleric shine or the naked FvS work, even in endgame. So in that regards, they are equal. It's what you want to play and how you play that tells you what class is better. And I favour clerics over FvS for the reasons I gave you.

[DoctorWhofan]

I think I have ran with you recently.

[JollySwagMan]

Not this thread again!

Domains.

[Dagolar]

It's a well known thing that if FvS ever gets a healing-based prc that clerics would likely have serious trouble keeping up as healers (assuming comparative healbot builds); Likewise, it'll be curious to see how the other two cleric prcs will affect the class, since Radiant definitely takes the class beyond what FvS is capable.

Spontaneous casters have significant advantages in DDO over non-spontaneous casters. Clerics get the free healing spell per spell level, more spell slots, (and the ability to switch out spells, but since this isn't a combat-related factor, I'm ignoring it on the comparison). Wizards get versatility, improved spell DCs, and nifty, unique abilities. Comparing simply wiz-sorc vs cler-fvs, clerics definitely seem to fall short a bit in the end-game; Though, as mentioned earlier, FvS IS a hard-to-access reward class. So some extra push is to be accepted. Nevertheless, perhaps a bit extra benefit could be afforded the cleric class once FvS prcs are better established. The more important question here is.. what would you want them to change?

No, there's one simple solution to this.
Radiant Servant 3, once added, will be fantastic (especially if it's meant to surpass 1 and 2).
There. Clerics will win out as healers.

[Tumarek]

Melee
Cleric - 18/2 Half-Orc Cleric - Half-orc has more damage (slightly), more options
vs
WF FVS - More survival, no multi-class, more SP, better raid healer, stronger BB's
FvS wins - barely for *melee only*, but WF can raid healwithout sacrifice

Ok i really must disagree at this one:

DPS: Like you said BC's out dps FvS. Any Fvs why even slightly want to compete with a Horc BC will have to be a WF. Beeing a WF means a really crappy Capstone and lower self heal.
Also the the Horc BC can keep his aura while fighting, helping his DPS and is enough for most quests up to normal Amrath.

Raidhealing: Well i dont really see why a FvS can really outheal in a raid. Well yes in long draw out bossbeatings they have more SP to go around but those actually shouldnt happen in most raids while BC will burst heal better... so this is just circumstantial at best.

Survivability: is really not that much at high levels, only wings that put them ahead, WF immunities are not worth much at cap.

Bladbarriers: Why sould they be better? All FvS stuff only helps light spells. So its down to Maximise empower and Potency IV. All things are not exclusive to FVS's.

While I agree FvS are handsdown the best Combat casters, in melee they are behind since RS came out. Not that far that it cant be overwritten by a deep love of wings but behind is behind.

[icekinslayer]

do arcanes get compared like divines do? it just seems rather pointless. they are 2 entirely different classes. fvs/cleric...wiz/sorc...apples/oranges, etc...situationally, assuming it's pc vs environment, isn't it good that all the classes bring something different to the table?

[sirgog]

IMO a Favored Soul is a better healer, because they are borderline indestructible (10 DR at 20, up to 40 more hitpoints), and wipes due to healer deaths are far more common than wipes due to healing per second output. Outside of having two Shadowfiends on the party in ToD, the extra ~17% healing per second Clerics put out isn't too relevant at present endgame, and won't be unless player HP pools increase a lot.

The extra HP and DR allows FvS's that are geared to abuse the Torc (and to a lesser extent a Conc-Opp item) more efficiently than a cleric can. Healing 4-5 SP per incoming hit is a lot better when you have 660hp and 10 DR (and so can take 15 50-point hits from epic trashmobs) than it is when you have 620hp and 0 DR (and need to urgently heal after 11-12 of the same hits).


Clerics do have one higher Wisdom potential than a FvS, however, and can take all of Implosion, Energy Drain, Mass Heal and True Resurrection.