Direct comparison, Cleric vs FvS - Give the Clerics love?

[tgu]

Warning: This is not a post to take a dump on cleric. This is NOT to say clerics can't be fun, or that clerics are semi-close to FvS or as viable in terms of healing. This is a post to show that FvS are *currently* stronger, and why. This could be used as a reference point for someone wanting to know the difference between the two, and *MAYBE* get clerics some love.

*I know* there has been a number of previous post like this, but as I look at both classes things stand out. The biggest one I noticed is that FvS matches or slight oust Cleric in a lot of ways. Here is the tail of the tape:

So, I wanted to do a mini-showdown/conclusions:

Raw Healing
Cleric (RS - <passive + active> + Emp. Healing enh)
vs
FvS(More SP) - Sov. Host gets free heal every 6 sec
Cleric wins -

Melee
Cleric - 18/2 Half-Orc Cleric - Half-orc has more damage (slightly), more options
vs
WF FVS - More survival, no multi-class, more SP, better raid healer, stronger BB's
FvS wins - barely for *melee only*, but WF can raid healwithout sacrifice

Caster -
Cleric - 20 Evoker Drow or Human (1 more point of wisdom, PrE only affects undead)
vs
FvS - 20 Evoker Drow or Human (much better caster PrE in every way, better empower) - Update 9 ftw?
FvS easily wins

Perks/Added benefits
Cleric - Divine Might, Heavy armor, Spell swapping, Easier to multi-class, more spell slots (6v4), death capstone
vs
FvS - +bonus to wpn type/faith line, WINGS, DR10 (12/15) - Better all-around capstone, more SP
FvS wins - Wings + a better capstone, while Clerics DM isn't strong enough (short time)...yet


Conclusion - WF FvS can oust it's melee opposite in Cleric, just like Evoker FvS will be a stronger caster. The ONLY difference that Clerics make up is slightly stronger healing - and most people have said (read through any healer post) that they don't prefer being a HEALBOT. So, with this said...it would be nice to see clerics get more slightly better PrE's, and a bit more caster love.

Above all - play what you enjoy most. Just know that Clerics could use a little love right now.

Anything else I've missed/comments, do tell!

[blade_of_will]

There is a difference between being a healbot and a class with healing as a core feature. Not disagreeing with you, but saying your closing statements aren't very clear.


Also, and to be clear im not very familiar with ether class, is perhaps the advantage of clerics that they can melee or be casters without making sacrifices in healing, where fvs have to sacrifice something to fit one role, and cant change that easily?

[tgu]

Thanks for response blade, let me clear things up

There is a difference between being a healbot and a class with healing as a core feature. Not disagreeing with you, but saying your closing statements aren't very clear.

Also, and to be clear im not very familiar with ether class, is perhaps the advantage of clerics that they can melee or be casters without making sacrifices in healing, where fvs have to sacrifice something to fit one role, and cant change that easily?

Cleric has healing as a core, but outside that core they are not as strong at melee or casting. This really hurts in hybrid roles (healing in raids, then boss beating/soloing/farming). The FvS is going to be the better all-around, and can take up a strong healing position while also doing better melee AND casting.

IN the last part of what you said, Cleric have to sacrifice more in my opinion. They change spells, have more spells, and have better AoE healing...but until more spells come out and their are REALLY hard choices, flexibility of spells doesn't add much. The healing also is minor, and both can heal just fine.

FvS - better all-around
Cleric - slightly dips off in caster or melee hybrid roles

Both are good, it's just FvS is a step or two ahead right now...and U9 with FvS Caster PrE put any discussion to rest. Even melee WF FvS have advantages to their Blade Barriers, which increases them overall

[jaegarnel]

Clerics have more or less passive healing via their aura, which means they don't have to stop what they were doing to heal people unless it's in a really hard fight.
You have to factor that in as well, on average in a quest, clerics will be albe to spend a little more time meleeing or nuking or whatever.

Also, I'd say that even if Favoured Souls are slightly better than a cleric overall, I don't see any issue with that. After all Favoured Soul is a class most players won't have access to.
Why shouldn't a class that you get for high favor or VIP status be better than a standard one? It's the same reason why drow are superior to other races for most classes if you don't have access to 32 point builds.

I'm not advocating pay to win here (after all, a badly played Favoured Soul will be just as useless as a badly played cleric) but access to the class is supposed to be a reward.

PS: I don't have access to Favoured Soul either, but if I ever get to 2500 favor on a server and the class I unlock isn't both good and a little different from a cleric, I'd be disappointed.

[tgu]

You have to factor that in as well, on average in a quest, clerics will be able to spend a little more time meleeing or nuking or whatever.

It should be only a little less time spent, and even then their nuking is weaker, but melee might see a slight advantage (making them about equal).

Why shouldn't a class that you get for high favor or VIP status be better than a standard one? It's the same reason why drow are superior to other races for most classes if you don't have access to 32 point builds.

I'm not advocating pay to win here *snip*

I think you basically won here Jaegarnel, I got checked mate. Absolutely right, and that slight edge is probably enough to balance the playing field (free vs unlocked favor). I guess that is one of the "perks" I should have mentioned.

I will say missed another - FvS past life - TR'ing as a FvS is more rewarding (+1 all DC, 20 SP) vs. +1 Conj, +1 turn

Edit:

Sorry, but do we need this comparison? We just had a thread here a week ago. How is this helping either class?

This seems a bit aggressive towards me, almost like saying "do we need this thread? It's been done before, why are you wasting our time"? You rushed it (x1).

Most threads aren't *needed*, they are just there...and I'd hate to hear this thread has been rehashed any more than a lot of other topics.

I wanted to weigh in equally, is this equal? --

Both are equally strong. FvS has the SP but clerics have the Radiant Servant PrE that give them a slight edge in the POWER of the healing.

I personally perfer clerics. I find them far more flexible than FvS.

Really doesn't give much information (SP vs. RS is only the tip of the iceberg), and seems rushed (x2).

[Snormal]

I would say built right a cleric can outheal a fvs almost any day. They're not as good at offensive casting, but really... it's not hard to kill stuff as a cleric with bb and implosion. The FvS PrE is great fun but it's really just adding to something that was already strong, IMO. The biggest weakness of FvS to me is levelling it and spell slots. Choosing between BB and heal at level 12, and not getting the other until 13.

[DoctorWhofan]

Sorry, but do we need this comparison? We just had a thread here a week ago. How is this helping either class?

[AtomicMew]

Sorry, but do we need this comparison? We just had a thread here a week ago. How is this helping either class?

It helps because it brings attention to the imbalance between the two classes, which will hopefully get Turbine to address the issue.

Like you, I would consider myself an experienced divine player. I have played multiple clerics and multiple FvS, and IMO, the margin between FvS and clerics is large, with FvS far out ahead. From my own anecdotal experience, wings alone make FvS far superior, even if FvS had identical stats otherwise. Of course, when comparison, most people don't take into account the benefit of wings, since it is impossible to quantify (unlike say, healing capacity/SP/DPs etc. I know you disagree, but I think you can see that more and more people are thinking FvS are superior.

That said, I am enjoying the undead killing power of the cleric. I have a first life cleric going through necro-4 right now, and it is hella fun winning the kill count against folks with 500+ past lives

[Oracle_Gil]

It helps because it brings attention to the imbalance between the two classes, which will hopefully get Turbine to address the issue.

Like you, I would consider myself an experienced divine player. I have played multiple clerics and multiple FvS, and IMO, the margin between FvS and clerics is large, with FvS far out ahead. From my own anecdotal experience, wings alone make FvS far superior, even if FvS had identical stats otherwise. Of course, when comparison, most people don't take into account the benefit of wings, since it is impossible to quantify (unlike say, healing capacity/SP/DPs etc. I know you disagree, but I think you can see that more and more people are thinking FvS are superior.

That said, I am enjoying the undead killing power of the cleric. I have a first life cleric going through necro-4 right now, and it is hella fun winning the kill count against folks with 500+ past lives
I want to go for 3 cleric past lifes now. I would never shrine for undead quests... just be a pied piper and then turn.

I dont think that is how imbalance of class is brought into notice. If I was a developer, instead of trusting the forums which represents the voice of those who post more, and more persistently; I will just check the total number of recent builds on the server. Much easier than going through piles of opinion based of half understood facts (we dont know but just assume that game is like this and that).
Then I would take into account the 'newly arrived' factor; e.g. if FvS were given a new ability, I would disregard a few weeks after rolling out that ability, because everybody would like to play that more.

Then I would look if FvS active builds are far far >> than cleric builds or not. If not, I would consider the game to be balanced. And I would check this regularly as a schedule, rather than on occasions.
After such a difference is noticeable, I would nerf/enhance a character, depending on other classes. e.g. if both number of active builds for FvS and cleric are >> average classes builds, I will nerf FvS. If it is << than average, I would enhance it.

After I have taken the action and everything, I would then come to forums and check if people are talking about it. To show them that I care about their opinion I would slip a post that I will look into it. That would be nice PR, well deserved too as I always am doing my duty to check the balance of game irrespective of others noticing it.

This way would be more scientific and logical rather than an opinionated decision which may break a game.

[AtomicMew]

I dont think that is how imbalance of class is brought into notice. If I was a developer, instead of trusting the forums which represents the voice of those who post more, and more persistently; I will just check the total number of recent builds on the server. Much easier than going through piles of opinion based of half understood facts (we dont know but just assume that game is like this and that).
Then I would take into account the 'newly arrived' factor; e.g. if FvS were given a new ability, I would disregard a few weeks after rolling out that ability, because everybody would like to play that more.

Then I would look if FvS active builds are far far >> than cleric builds or not. If not, I would consider the game to be balanced. And I would check this regularly as a schedule, rather than on occasions.
After such a difference is noticeable, I would nerf/enhance a character, depending on other classes. e.g. if both number of active builds for FvS and cleric are >> average classes builds, I will nerf FvS. If it is << than average, I would enhance it.

After I have taken the action and everything, I would then come to forums and check if people are talking about it. To show them that I care about their opinion I would slip a post that I will look into it. That would be nice PR, well deserved too as I always am doing my duty to check the balance of game irrespective of others noticing it.

This way would be more scientific and logical rather than an opinionated decision which may break a game.

Fair enough. However, you'd come to the same conclusion.

Controlling for the fact that FvS aren't F2P, FvS are way more popular than clerics. They were, even before U9. The only reason you see clerics in comparable numbers is because FvS aren't F2P.

[Oracle_Gil]

Fair enough. However, you'd come to the same conclusion.

Controlling for the fact that FvS aren't F2P, FvS are way more popular than clerics. They were, even before U9. The only reason you see clerics in comparable numbers is because FvS aren't F2P.

No, I was not concluding. Those were hypothetical numbers. I dont really know about overpowered. I play this game as a flavor, somehow as of now all classes I picked turned out to be very strong and self-sufficient by coincidence.
I played paladin, I wanted a demon fighter so I took smites and KoH(i think), it turned out that its dps was amazing and highest among best and it was very self-sufficent. Then I wanted to try cleric - I liked the arrogant sound of cellimas, so I made a cleric but I wanted to be agressive and arrogant like her and just not heal. Then RS came along when I was high lvl and I suddenly found myself wanting compared to other clerics - who could heal better without scrolls and cast too. So I converted it to divine caster with RS, and it was no longer a not-healer.
Then trying necromancer, they revamped it in a major way.
Then when I wanted to try a water mage based theme of sorcerer, savants came along making it very easy for me.
I dont know if it was luck or what, but any class I played, changed for better. I like that the game is dynamic. It keeps changing and is not boring.
Next I want to try a bard, maybe while I am in process of levelling it up, they will make changes to that too
Frankly I think all classes need some nerf...that will keep all satisfied because it will need cooperation to complete even the easiest of quests. However, it is not a desirable situation as during lean hours, people will be frustrated if they cant complete the quests solo, or complete them with bad groups.

[baddax]

I dont think that is how imbalance of class is brought into notice. If I was a developer, instead of trusting the forums which represents the voice of those who post more, and more persistently; I will just check the total number of recent builds on the server. Much easier than going through piles of opinion based of half understood facts (we dont know but just assume that game is like this and that).
Then I would take into account the 'newly arrived' factor; e.g. if FvS were given a new ability, I would disregard a few weeks after rolling out that ability, because everybody would like to play that more.

Then I would look if FvS active builds are far far >> than cleric builds or not. If not, I would consider the game to be balanced. And I would check this regularly as a schedule, rather than on occasions.
After such a difference is noticeable, I would nerf/enhance a character, depending on other classes. e.g. if both number of active builds for FvS and cleric are >> average classes builds, I will nerf FvS. If it is << than average, I would enhance it.

After I have taken the action and everything, I would then come to forums and check if people are talking about it. To show them that I care about their opinion I would slip a post that I will look into it. That would be nice PR, well deserved too as I always am doing my duty to check the balance of game irrespective of others noticing it.

This way would be more scientific and logical rather than an opinionated decision which may break a game.

DDO Oracle says:
Thelanis.
Level 20 Chars by Class
Class# of Chars
Cleric1364
Sorcerer 1297
Wizard 1175
FavoredSoul 1113
Monk 993
Fighter 928
Barbarian 749
Paladin 589
Ranger 588
Rogue 569
Bard 535

The nice thing about computers is they store reams of data. Just turning the data into relevant information and making necessary decisions based on said information is sometimes more difficult.

[phum]

DDO Oracle says:
Thelanis.
Level 20 Chars by Class
Class# of Chars
Cleric1364
Sorcerer 1297
Wizard 1175
FavoredSoul 1113
Monk 993
Fighter 928
Barbarian 749
Paladin 589
Ranger 588
Rogue 569
Bard 535

The nice thing about computers is they store reams of data. Just turning the data into relevant information and making necessary decisions based on said information is sometimes more difficult.

Yep. Fvs is a p2p class and cleric an f2p one. Also, this approach goes by ppl playing what is strong. ddo isn't that simple and many ppl like to play flavor builds. Builds, that are their own, not some1 elses. Although, I would guess this is close to the method being used^^ It results in large changes coming quite late and more balancing changes afterwards

[Oracle_Gil]

DDO Oracle says:
Thelanis.
Level 20 Chars by Class
Class# of Chars
Cleric1364
Sorcerer 1297
Wizard 1175
FavoredSoul 1113
Monk 993
Fighter 928
Barbarian 749
Paladin 589
Ranger 588
Rogue 569
Bard 535

The nice thing about computers is they store reams of data. Just turning the data into relevant information and making necessary decisions based on said information is sometimes more difficult.

If this creates jobs, I would be happy Smelling an oppurtunity

lol, jokes apart, the fact which you pointed out can be solved, there are ways to solve them mathematically. The models these people make are faboulous...
My simple single brain system can also comprehend a crude strategy that taking an average of data before event and normalising it to a same scale and comparing it to after the event should do the trick. [or in simple english, considering how much difference was before and how much difference in difference is now would do the trick]
Otherwise they must have some program designed by some smart guy with them which us mortals cant comprehend that easily. But such things are done by consultancies... I mean I do think these are done.

However if I have to make a statement from this, I would say that bards need our love, not clerics or FvS

[DoctorWhofan]

Since you pulled a quote from another thread, here we go:

Clerics can CHOOSE their spells, they are not locked in like FvS. Also, they canst the most spells in the game, due to the fact they get healing spells for FREE. That gives them (up to) 6 spells per level, instead of the usual 5 that a Wizard gets. They can change out spells easily, making them adaptable for say HoX to doing the Shroud.

While they don't have the SP like FvS, they do have an awesome healing PrE: Radiant Servant. Not only does it free them from having alot of CHA (due to the regen ability of turn undeads) THe healing radiance they emit is pretty powerful.

Finally, and on a more personal level, I like playing them. I personally have more fun playing them and less stress worrying about whether or not I have what I need for this quest. I like being the walking shrine and I like having the ability to have all the healing/buffing/ and killing spells without spending cash to change them out.

[tgu]

Since you pulled a quote from another thread, here we go:

That thread was relatively similar (in bold):

I'm thinking about making a pure healer character and I was wondering if anyone could break down the strengths/weaknesses of a Cleric and Favored Soul, what one has over the other, and who would most likely be the "better healer" in a party. Thanks!

I am going to quote, in a more simple format (no misquoting)

*Clerics can CHOOSE their spells
*they canst the most spells in the game ...making them adaptable
*Radiant Servant... free them from having alot of CHA (..turn undeads)
*I personally have more fun... and less stress worrying.

Thanks for that input, I am glad we got a discussion going on now.

I have seen several threads about spells, and it seems that outside a few levels...aren't most spells defined? In the future, I would like to this choice (5+heal vs 4) + flexibility will (more 6-9 level spells) = a much larger impact. The vibe I get, and from talking to even more veteran players is only small sacrifices have to be made, given the limited range of spells.

As far as the rest, I can see how stress is reduced with more *easy style* healing, and I should say that is a perk. Thanks! I guess as a FvS lover and former WoW player, I forget at times how relatively small perks add up. Thanks again!

[DoctorWhofan]

That thread was relatively similar (in bold):

I am going to quote, in a more simple format (no misquoting)

Thanks for that input, I am glad we got a discussion going on now.

I have seen several threads about spells, and it seems that outside a few levels...aren't most spells defined? In the future, I would like to this choice (5+heal vs 4) + flexibility will (more 6-9 level spells) = a much larger impact. The vibe I get, and from talking to even more veteran players is only small sacrifices have to be made, given the limited range of spells.

As far as the rest, I can see how stress is reduced with more *easy style* healing, and I should say that is a perk. Thanks! I guess as a FvS lover and former WoW player, I forget at times how relatively small perks add up. Thanks again!

I have been playing clerics for 5 years now, and went from when the y could only be healbots til the present day. I have walked the journey through their evolution in this game, and most of my characters are clerics or cleric mixes. Nearly all can heal in some capacity. I have WF clerics and Clogues and FvSs and healing bards.

I perfer flexiblity over all. I have 2 FvS and I am not happy for at time choose a buff or an offensive spell. I have to agonize over it at every level up. I feel I am forced to choose a path, and that path may not be the right one.

FvS are more combat orientated, and offensive casting, due to their PrE. While most htink that gives them a slight edge, which it does in the terms of DPS of a hit/spell damage, I think theflexiblity of a cleric wins overall. I CAN hit things with my mace if I want, or Kill things with my spells or be the walking shrine. Or I can do all three at the same time.

This is subjective, though. Me waving a flag saying "Clerics are the uberist" and handing out panphlets discribing why doesn't really say anything, nor will it put the topic you chose to rest. We have our ways of playing, and mine say clerics are the best. And all the gold wings in the world don't matter to me, for the reasons I play clerics are my own.

[tgu]

Thanks again Doctor, two post and I learned quite a bit from you (no lie).

I have WF clerics and Clogues and FvSs and healing bards.

I laughed there, I have the same mentality. I like to try odd race clerics/FvS, and I've tried a SS bard healer (people rejected my bard though).

Going to try to quote you again in a simple format:

*I perfer flexiblity over all. I have 2 FvS... I have to agonize over it at every level up.
*FvS are more combat orientated
*I think theflexiblity of a cleric wins overall.
*This is subjective, though ...nor will it put the topic you chose to rest.

I can't help it man, you left me wanting to know more. Some that I've learned, more so that you've experienced a lot more in-game. Questions like:

1. Flexibility - how much on *average* will this affect the player?
2. Are most FvS you see in-game combat oriented, heal secondary?
3. Tough question (my original post) - do you think clerics could use more love OR do you think it is balanced?

I know in a lot of these X vs. Y threads it's subjective, but when good knowledge comes in and realistic scenarios are placed...we can see a bigger picture, and hopefully a solid answer. Not extreme subjectives like - "FvS rock, clerics suck! OR FvS are better, because I said so" But more like FvS have less spells, but how much overall does that affect gameplay at low, mid, late game?

[protokon]

Since you pulled a quote from another thread, here we go:

Clerics can CHOOSE their spells, they are not locked in like FvS. Also, they canst the most spells in the game, due to the fact they get healing spells for FREE. That gives them (up to) 6 spells per level, instead of the usual 5 that a Wizard gets. They can change out spells easily, making them adaptable for say HoX to doing the Shroud.

While they don't have the SP like FvS, they do have an awesome healing PrE: Radiant Servant. Not only does it free them from having alot of CHA (due to the regen ability of turn undeads) THe healing radiance they emit is pretty powerful.

Finally, and on a more personal level, I like playing them. I personally have more fun playing them and less stress worrying about whether or not I have what I need for this quest. I like being the walking shrine and I like having the ability to have all the healing/buffing/ and killing spells without spending cash to change them out.

Unfortunately do to the availability of scrolls/wands, most spells that are carried by clerics can easily be carried by favored souls, without needing to 'memorize' it.

It's really stretching it at this point to call clerics more flexible than favored souls. Favored souls are capable of doing more damage in all aspects (melee, casting), are capable of healing just as well (let's face it, the benefits of radiant servant are overkill compared to what is actually needed) and they have more spell points, wings, DR capstone, ect...

The only big benefit of a cleric really is they get more level 9 spells, especially when multiclassed - which isnt that much of a benefit.

I think clerics do need a little love with an offensive Pre (or domains but who knows if that will happen).

I love clerics, I really do, but compared to favored souls there just underdogs with the current game mechanics. I dropped radiant servant on my main and maximized the smiting line, just because I find stacking divine punishment more fun while healing than standing next to the group with my little aura ticking.

[joneb1999]

Unfortunately do to the availability of scrolls/wands, most spells that are carried by clerics can easily be carried by favored souls, without needing to 'memorize' it.

It's really stretching it at this point to call clerics more flexible than favored souls. Favored souls are capable of doing more damage in all aspects (melee, casting), are capable of healing just as well (let's face it, the benefits of radiant servant are overkill compared to what is actually needed) and they have more spell points, wings, DR capstone, ect...

The only big benefit of a cleric really is they get more level 9 spells, especially when multiclassed - which isnt that much of a benefit.

I think clerics do need a little love with an offensive Pre (or domains but who knows if that will happen).

I love clerics, I really do, but compared to favored souls there just underdogs with the current game mechanics. I dropped radiant servant on my main and maximized the smiting line, just because I find stacking divine punishment more fun while healing than standing next to the group with my little aura ticking.

You sound like your cleric is boring. Maybe you need to TR him to an FvS. My cleric is great fun so its about how the player makes it.