Unarmerd Kensei Fighter vs Monk

[Trueshots]

Just wondering if anyone's ever done the math on which of these would be higher damage. comparing 20 unarmed kensei figther or 18fighter/2monk vs 20 monk. i know there are pros and cons of both but was hoping someone already did the leg work thanks for any opinions you can give.

[elg582]

I ran the numbers on split-classes, 12/8, 8/12, and 18/2.

8 fighter/12 monk and 8 monk/12 fighter come out about the same, in sheer damage, with the big difference coming from power surge vs. bigger jump in unarmed damage. Kensei 1 & 2 largely compensate for the lower base damage. Dark monk has a big advantage here.

18 fighter/2 monk gains a better crit profile, but not much else.

20 fighter is not really viable as an unarmed build; why use 1d3 when you have better options?

20 monk will keep up with pretty much anything except raging barb in DPS, and gains much more; DR 10/epic, if nothing else.

[thandros]

I ran the numbers on split-classes, 12/8, 8/12, and 18/2.

8 fighter/12 monk and 8 monk/12 fighter come out about the same, in sheer damage, with the big difference coming from power surge vs. bigger jump in unarmed damage. Kensei 1 & 2 largely compensate for the lower base damage. Dark monk has a big advantage here.

18 fighter/2 monk gains a better crit profile, but not much else.

20 fighter is not really viable as an unarmed build; why use 1d3 when you have better options?

I plan on trying 18 fighter 2 monk for my next tr since i want one more fighter tr before got back to 20 monk again but i wouldn't advise trying it unless you have a monk past life and both your tod rings made

[stille_nacht]

i think the 12 ftr/8 mnk is supposed to havebetter dps than other monk builds (barring mostly rogue ones that is, or ones that only have 1 mnk level), mostly because of surges and haste boost.

[elg582]

i think the 12 ftr/8 mnk is supposed to havebetter dps than other monk builds (barring mostly rogue ones that is, or ones that only have 1 mnk level), mostly because of surges and haste boost.

Touch of death.

Edit: From my old TR monk http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3363188

"I decided to switch to 12 monk/8 fighter. For a net loss of 1 to-hit, 1 damage, 8 hp and power surge, I get ToD (even nerfed, it still has some use), improved evasion, abundant step, better ki strikes, better saves, better AC, water walking (this is HUGE in abbot raid), and a few odds and ends. The nice thing was that I didn't have to make the decision until level 12 or so. I left the original build below in case anyone wants to compare."

[whomhead]

Touch of death.

Edit: From my old TR monk http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3363188

"I decided to switch to 12 monk/8 fighter. For a net loss of 1 to-hit, 1 damage, 8 hp and power surge, I get ToD (even nerfed, it still has some use), improved evasion, abundant step, better ki strikes, better saves, better AC, water walking (this is HUGE in abbot raid), and a few odds and ends. The nice thing was that I didn't have to make the decision until level 12 or so. I left the original build below in case anyone wants to compare."

Not saying you're wrong, but it is hard for me to see how Touch of Death is really that big of a boost to the build. Certainly while levelling it could be quite useful, but at end game it seems like it will basically always be saved against. If so, then is it really worth the heavy AP investment and major ki expenditure to get the ability to do 250-500 damage a couple of times a minute?

[Soleran]

Not saying you're wrong, but it is hard for me to see how Touch of Death is really that big of a boost to the build. Certainly while levelling it could be quite useful, but at end game it seems like it will basically always be saved against. If so, then is it really worth the heavy AP investment and major ki expenditure to get the ability to do 250-500 damage a couple of times a minute?

Also he gets a bump to doublestrike if he is windstanced so he'll have 7.5% vs 5% a better ki strike to follow up with and tod and much better survivability. The tod would still add up to 1k bare minimum damage in a minute assuming no double strikes or off hand processes and the dark monk if he took ninja spy would also have 3d6 sa. Looks like a win overall.

[whomhead]

Also he gets a bump to doublestrike if he is windstanced so he'll have 7.5% vs 5% a better ki strike to follow up with and tod and much better survivability. The tod would still add up to 1k bare minimum damage in a minute assuming no double strikes or off hand processes and the dark monk if he took ninja spy would also have 3d6 sa. Looks like a win overall.

Right, but most of that stuff has nothing to do with ToD. I'm talking about going with the 12 monk, 8 fighter split, but not taking ToD. Or perhaps taking it early and then dropping it at end-game as it becomes less and less of your total damage output. I mean, at 300-400 damage per second an extra 1000 damage over a minute is pretty negligible.

[Soleran]

Right, but most of that stuff has nothing to do with ToD. I'm talking about going with the 12 monk, 8 fighter split, but not taking ToD. Or perhaps taking it early and then dropping it at end-game as it becomes less and less of your total damage output. I mean, at 300-400 damage per second an extra 1000 damage over a minute is pretty negligible.

Not taking ToD and going dark even with ninja spy would be as bad as going kensei 2 and not using powersurge, it's alot more then 1k even with saves but to each their own.

[Dartwick]

20 fighter unarmed is not viable at all. Without a little monk you swing so slow that its a joke.

18 fighter 2 monk is good. Perhaps it is the highest dps evasion fighter short of SOS even.

[whomhead]

Not taking ToD and going dark even with ninja spy would be as bad as going kensei 2 and not using powersurge, it's alot more then 1k even with saves but to each their own.

Except that you get power surge for free with kensai II, whereas ToD costs at least 10 AP on a relatively AP-starved character. Additionally, ToD requires charging up 50 ki, which equates to 10 ki strikes (at least 10d6 damage). That's not an insignificant loss in DPS for the ability to throw a ToD that will be saved against regularly.

Basically, it just doesn't seem that it is such a cut-and-dried a comparison as you make it out to be. Not saying it isn't worth the investment, but the trade-off deserves consideration, at least.

[Soleran]

Basically, it just doesn't seem that it is such a cut-and-dried a comparison as you make it out to be. Not saying it isn't worth the investment, but the trade-off deserves consideration, at least.

Yup, figure out your game play and roll up the toon.

[jandhaer]

If your role is to do damage ,as any melees is, then NOT putting a few action points into something that adds at least 1k damage per minute is just rediculous people get past lives and make drastic gear changes to add +1, +2 etc damage to their hits. Its completely rediculous to not take ToD, do i really have to type this ??? Im amazed this is even being discussed.

[Thoradin]

but it is.. you are talking at least 10d6.. thats 6-60.. even if you DOUBLE that its 12-120.. 1 tod resisted with NO double strike or offhand is 250..

[jandhaer]

not sure where your goin with that...

[ulticleo]

Except that you get power surge for free with kensai II, whereas ToD costs at least 10 AP on a relatively AP-starved character. Additionally, ToD requires charging up 50 ki, which equates to 10 ki strikes (at least 10d6 damage). That's not an insignificant loss in DPS for the ability to throw a ToD that will be saved against regularly.

Basically, it just doesn't seem that it is such a cut-and-dried a comparison as you make it out to be. Not saying it isn't worth the investment, but the trade-off deserves consideration, at least.

I am going to venture a guess that you never played a monk, or at least, not at end game.

dmg - tod can be used every 15 sec, not 30, so it's 1000-2500 (if resisted often. with some luck can easily be 5000+ due to offhand and double strikes against lower fort saves) damage per minute, or a boost of 16-42 dps, which is nothing to scoff at. against trash mobs, it amounts to much more than that, as you also spend time moving from fight to fight.

ki - I don't know any decently geared monk at end game who has an issue generating enough ki for tod with plenty left over for other strikes. whether they are sun stance, or wind stance + oremi, it is just not an issue.

AP - yes, the prereqs are useless and it hurts a bit, but it can be squeezed in, and as every dark monk will tell you, there is absolutely NOTHING that would be better to spend the AP on. TOD is made of awesome sauce.

[Therigar]

TOD is made of awesome sauce.

Which is why it got nerfed to start with. It use to be awesome sauce on steroids.

[Kinerd]

Base damage:
20 monk - 2d10 = 11
18 fighter / 2 monk - 1d6 + (2 + 2) enhancements + 4 seeker + (2 + 2) feats = 11.5 + 4 seeker

Attack speed with Haste:
20 - 111.3
18/2 - 132.5 with Quickdraw

After this the considerations get a little vaguer. Is the monk running with Oremi's and Wind (or Earth) stance? If so, should we give the fighter a bonus for the Shintao set? Should we give the fighter a higher starting Strength, as he or she will have no reason to spend build points on Wisdom, more than 15 Dex, etc.? What if we're making half-orcs - can the monk get Touch of Death, Grandmaster multiple stances, and all the orc stuff? What if we're making halflings - what relative sneak attack will we end up with?

Keeping all that in mind, we can still do a rough comparison by glossing over these: each build starts at the same Strength, has the same gear, is in their respective Wind stances, and has enough AP. For weapons we will use Holy handwraps of Greater Bane, a Holy Burst ring, a Shocking Burst ring, and Tharne's Goggles. Then we have:

20 monk
1.9 * (111.3 / 60) * (1 * 0 + 17 * (11 + D) + 2 * 2 * (11 + D)) / 20 = 40.7 + 3.70 * D
A 50% shot of landing ToD: (19 / 20) * 375 * 1.9 / 15 = 45.1
Three tier IV elemental strikes: (19 / 20) * 3 * 21 * 1.9 / 3 = 37.9
Magical effects: 1.9 * (111.3 / 60) * (19 / 20) * (7 + 10.5 + 7 + 7 + 8 + 10.5 [ninja spy SA]) = 167.4
Bursts: 1.9 * (111.3 / 60) * (2 / 20) * (10.5 + 5.5) = 5.6
Total: 296.7 + 3.70 * D

18/2 fighter/monk
1.825 * (132.5 / 60) * (1 * 0 + 16 * (11.5 + D) + 3 * 2 * (11.5 + 4 + D)) / 20 = 55.8 + 4.43 * D
No ToD, but all four tier I elemental strikes: (19 /20) * 3 * 3.5 * 1.9 / 3 + (22 / 20) * 4 * 1.9 / 3 = 9.1
Magical effects: 1.825 * (132.5 / 60) * (19 / 20) * (7 + 10.5 + 7 + 7 + 8) = 151.2
Bursts: 1.825 * (132.5 / 60) * (3 / 20) * (10.5 + 5.5) = 9.7
Total: 225.5 + 4.43 * D

We should also account for Power Surge, which we can do by setting D[fighter/monk] = D[monk] + 4, so our final equation is:

296.7 + 3.70 * D vs. 243.2 + 4.43 * D

Which breaks even at D = 73.3 = 74, which is well beyond what we would expect to be able to achieve.

.

It should be reiterated that this is an intentionally generalized (which is to say vague) analysis. Considerations such as fortification, elemental immunity, immunity to negative damage, immunity to sneak attack, etc., require modifications to the equations, but this is a good a place to start as any.

[elg582]

Base damage:
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.
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It should be reiterated that this is an intentionally generalized (which is to say vague) analysis. Considerations such as fortification, elemental immunity, immunity to negative damage, immunity to sneak attack, etc., require modifications to the equations, but this is a good a place to start as any.

Looks reasonable; if I am reading that correctly, it looks like the raw DPS is relatively close. Fighters will do better against negative-energy immune enemies, while monks will do better against fortification. Monks get crazy special moves, fighters get tanking intimidate, action boosts, etc.

[Therigar]

intentionally generalized (which is to say vague) analysis

Questions.

Why do you include seeker for monk/fighter but not monk? My monk runs with seeker at all times when grouped (although I sometimes drop it for natural armor when soloing).

Do you include seeker for fighter because you assume that build will have an additional stacking seeker that monks cannot get?