Urban Myths? or Useful Things?

[danotmano1998]

I was wondering if anyone can confirm some things I've read here in the forums.

1. The heal skill is useful on a cleric.
Uh... really? Supposedly it allows you to get more hit points while resting?? Hmmm. Every time I rest at a shrine, I get max hp and sp back. I've never taken a single point in healing. I don't understand how this can be useful in ANY way, save for the rare time you have no SP left, there's a party member laying incapacitated, and heal kits are the only way to revive them. Even then, don't you only need 1 point in heal to use kits?

2. Maximize affects your healing spells/bursts.
This may or may not be true. I was under the (possibly incorrect) assumption that the only things that affected these are the "empower healing" lines and all the associated Life Magic goodies and devotion/ardor items. If maximize affects your heals/bursts, then does regular "Empower" do this as well? or is it only max and empower heal?

Can anyone shed some light on these 2 questions? I'm very curious to see the answers.

[Forzah]

I was wondering if anyone can confirm some things I've read here in the forums.

1. The heal skill is useful on a cleric.
Uh... really? Supposedly it allows you to get more hit points while resting?? Hmmm. Every time I rest at a shrine, I get max hp and sp back. I've never taken a single point in healing. I don't understand how this can be useful in ANY way, save for the rare time you have no SP left, there's a party member laying incapacitated, and heal kits are the only way to revive them. Even then, don't you only need 1 point in heal to use kits?

2. Maximize affects your healing spells/bursts.
This may or may not be true. I was under the (possibly incorrect) assumption that the only things that affected these are the "empower healing" lines and all the associated Life Magic goodies and devotion/ardor items. If maximize affects your heals/bursts, then does regular "Empower" do this as well? or is it only max and empower heal?

Can anyone shed some light on these 2 questions? I'm very curious to see the answers.

1. Heal skill helps somewhat to regain more hp (for the whole party) when resting, but is generally not worth it.

2. Maximize works on all spells and abilities except for the spell `heal' and `mass heal', as far as I'm concerned. Same holds for empower, it stacks with all other metamagics.

[FlyingTurtle]

I was wondering if anyone can confirm some things I've read here in the forums.

1. The heal skill is useful on a cleric.
Uh... really? Supposedly it allows you to get more hit points while resting?? Hmmm. Every time I rest at a shrine, I get max hp and sp back. I've never taken a single point in healing. I don't understand how this can be useful in ANY way, save for the rare time you have no SP left, there's a party member laying incapacitated, and heal kits are the only way to revive them. Even then, don't you only need 1 point in heal to use kits?

2. Maximize affects your healing spells/bursts.
This may or may not be true. I was under the (possibly incorrect) assumption that the only things that affected these are the "empower healing" lines and all the associated Life Magic goodies and devotion/ardor items. If maximize affects your heals/bursts, then does regular "Empower" do this as well? or is it only max and empower heal?

Can anyone shed some light on these 2 questions? I'm very curious to see the answers.

1. False.

2. True.

[Cam_Neely]

1. False.

2. True.

^This

Really just replying to ask, anyone know why the OPs green bar has a blue colored tile instead of green in the first spot? Never seen this

*EDIT* interested, after I posted and clicked back in here it was gone... need more coffee...

[dkyle]

Really just replying to ask, anyone know why the OPs green bar has a blue colored tile instead of green in the first spot? Never seen this

You probably highlighted the image without noticing.

For example, at least in Chrome, if I click on one of the boxes and drag, it gets highlighted in blue.

[Cam_Neely]

You probably highlighted the image without noticing.

For example, at least in Chrome, if I click on one of the boxes and drag, it gets highlighted in blue.

Ding ding. Winner. Just highlighted one and it was the same color. Good call!

Sorry for the slight derailment, but its a bit of an open and shut topic.

I now return you to your regular scheduled programing.

[Missing_Minds]

1. False.

2. True. Conditionally.

Maximize will have zero effect on Heal, and Heal, Mass.

[kcru]

1. False.

Incorrect. 2 pts in Improved Heal are neccessary to be a Radiant Servant.


Heal is a Wisdom skill, so a cleric gets some "free" points in Heal also. My low-level Bard didn't have that, and if I got to a shrine with 1/3 HP I would generally finish resting without being at full. A couple skill points later that doesn't happen, so no doubt the free stat based points accomplish everything needed.

[justagame]

You have the description more or less right for heal, but it is useless:

a) It doesn't scale well as you level. Sure at low level, you may always get healed to full, but that won't last as you level and gain hp.

b) It doesn't do anything that a mass cure or burst at the shrine won't do.

c) When out of sp and you need to get someone up from incap, just use a wand


And others gave the correct response on the metas. Empower and maximize apply to mass cures, cure xxx wounds, and bursts. Empower healing is the only one of the three that applies to heal, mass heal, and the aura.

[danotmano1998]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm going to have to squeeze in maximize then.

So if you have your maximize on, and cast mass heals/heals, they cast as normal and it doesn't cost any additional SP's?? THAT is extremely useful info.

[Therigar]

1. The Heal skill is not useless and it does perform as indicated in the description. Its usefulness is not usually noticable at low levels because shrine rests at low levels over-heal most characters. It is also not normally noticed at low levels on clerics in particular if they are not taking heavy amounts of damage. As mentioned by others, the skill is most noticed by other characters at high levels when resting while high heal skilled players are nearby.

2. The two feats that I use to improve curative spells are Empower Healing and Maximize. As mentioned, maximize does not work with the spell Heal or Mass Heal. It is useful, however, in increasing the cures for mass cure spells. Some players prefer empower over empower healing. The advantage of empower is that it also affects non-curative spells. The advantage of empower healing is that it affects heal and mass heal.

Regarding the heal skill, I would take it if you have the skill points and don't have other needs. Since I don't know your build I can't tell if you should be using the skill points in other places. However, IMO most clerics should be spending skill points on heal as there are few other needs. The argument that clerics should spend skill points on concentration is, IMO, rendered invalid by the quicken spell. My experience is that concentration isn't usually high enough to avoid interruption at higher levels so that quicken is the better choice. That means even if only getting 1 skill point per level there is nothing more useful than heal available. At least that's how I see it.

[Quikster]

1. The Heal skill is not useless and it does perform as indicated in the description. Its usefulness is not usually noticable at low levels because shrine rests at low levels over-heal most characters. It is also not normally noticed at low levels on clerics in particular if they are not taking heavy amounts of damage. As mentioned by others, the skill is most noticed by other characters at high levels when resting while high heal skilled players are nearby.

2. The two feats that I use to improve curative spells are Empower Healing and Maximize. As mentioned, maximize does not work with the spell Heal or Mass Heal. It is useful, however, in increasing the cures for mass cure spells. Some players prefer empower over empower healing. The advantage of empower is that it also affects non-curative spells. The advantage of empower healing is that it affects heal and mass heal.

Regarding the heal skill, I would take it if you have the skill points and don't have other needs. Since I don't know your build I can't tell if you should be using the skill points in other places. However, IMO most clerics should be spending skill points on heal as there are few other needs. The argument that clerics should spend skill points on concentration is, IMO, rendered invalid by the quicken spell. My experience is that concentration isn't usually high enough to avoid interruption at higher levels so that quicken is the better choice. That means even if only getting 1 skill point per level there is nothing more useful than heal available. At least that's how I see it.

Disagree. Heal skill pretty much sucks. UMD, balance, concentration, diplo, intim, and jump are all more useful depending on your playstyle.

Quicken doesnt work with scrolls. I guess you could not carry scrolls at all and just buy pots in the store, but even then its nice to have an alternative to heal spell when its on cooldown.

I have not seen heal pop someone up to a useful level of hitpoints that a regenerating burst or running aura couldnt do better. Its a total waste of skill points imo.

[dkyle]

1. The Heal skill is not useless and it does perform as indicated in the description.

It performs in accordance with the description.

The description describes a useless function.

Heal is not worth even considering putting points into.

Regarding the heal skill, I would take it if you have the skill points and don't have other needs. Since I don't know your build I can't tell if you should be using the skill points in other places. However, IMO most clerics should be spending skill points on heal as there are few other needs.

A Cleric gets 2 + INT mod skill points per level. INT is a dump stat for Clerics. I would say 3 skill points at most before tomes, and those are far better spent on Concentration, Balance, Jump, UMD, Diplomacy, Tumble, even Spot. Heck, I'd spend points on Swim before I'd spend them on Heal.

The argument that clerics should spend skill points on concentration is, IMO, rendered invalid by the quicken spell.

Scrolls can't be quickened.

[Therigar]

Heal is not worth even considering putting points into.

I would say 3 skill points at most before tomes, and those are far better spent on Concentration, Balance, Jump, UMD, Diplomacy, Tumble, even Spot.

Scrolls can't be quickened.

Each player has to determine what skills they believe are most valuable based on their own play style. In my case I have never had any use for scrolls so concerns about whether quicken works with scrolls has never been important.

I also have had no use for UMD on a cleric or favored soul and have found diplomacy to be almost entirely worthless. But, that is me and my experience and I'm sure that others have found them essential parts of their character's build.

I tend to use all or nearly all of my spell points on a routine basis. Just as I don't use scrolls I cannot justify using wands except as an emergency tool. So, when it comes time to shrine I find that I have almost no resources left to help the others in my party except the heal skill.

What I do see happening a lot is those needing cures refusing to use rest shrines and instead expecting clerics or favored souls to top them off. Because the shrines are there for them to use and because they can gain back large numbers of extra HP by resting when I do I find that to be just selfish. I have a hard time accepting that I should enable that behavior by using wands or scrolls or healing bursts.

To my mind it is very similar to groups refusing to gather around the cleric or favored soul for mass cures but instead running off and expecting individual cures and heals. It is a matter of respect for the team and using the team's resources most efficiently.

It is much fewer spell points to toss a mass cure than to cast multiple heals (or even multiple individual cures). And, it is zero mana cost to rest and deliver additional HP because of a high heal skill.

This works for the way I play because I don't use scrolls or wands and because I don't find UMD or diplomacy or balance or jump or swim to be of better value given the way I play. For me and my play style I find the heal skill to be of more utility than any of the other class skills. It has immediate utility that applies to my character all of the time and that affects other characters who are resting as well. It is a skill that will be used in almost every quest -- because almost every quest has rest shrines (and, yes, I'm well aware that there are some that do not).

At L20 with WIS 30 a cleric's heal skill will be more than 30, likely closer to 35, if they have put skill points into heal. For a typical character at L20 rest will give back 70 points w/o heal skill (and possibly less if there is a negative heal value due to low WIS). By being close by with 30 heal that number grows to 160 -- more likely 175.

That is 175 points of healing for every character that is close by and is easily equivalent to mass cure spells but at no mana cost at all. For pure efficiency I have a hard time justifying the resources spent -- either my own plat on scrolls & wands or the spell points expended in cures and heals -- when such a simple choice of taking the heal skill is there.

But, each person has to make their own determination of how to play their own character. IMO the heal skill provides good value.

[Habreno]

Each player has to determine what skills they believe are most valuable based on their own play style. In my case I have never had any use for scrolls so concerns about whether quicken works with scrolls has never been important.

I also have had no use for UMD on a cleric or favored soul and have found diplomacy to be almost entirely worthless. But, that is me and my experience and I'm sure that others have found them essential parts of their character's build.

I tend to use all or nearly all of my spell points on a routine basis. Just as I don't use scrolls I cannot justify using wands except as an emergency tool. So, when it comes time to shrine I find that I have almost no resources left to help the others in my party except the heal skill.

What I do see happening a lot is those needing cures refusing to use rest shrines and instead expecting clerics or favored souls to top them off. Because the shrines are there for them to use and because they can gain back large numbers of extra HP by resting when I do I find that to be just selfish. I have a hard time accepting that I should enable that behavior by using wands or scrolls or healing bursts.

To my mind it is very similar to groups refusing to gather around the cleric or favored soul for mass cures but instead running off and expecting individual cures and heals. It is a matter of respect for the team and using the team's resources most efficiently.

It is much fewer spell points to toss a mass cure than to cast multiple heals (or even multiple individual cures). And, it is zero mana cost to rest and deliver additional HP because of a high heal skill.

This works for the way I play because I don't use scrolls or wands and because I don't find UMD or diplomacy or balance or jump or swim to be of better value given the way I play. For me and my play style I find the heal skill to be of more utility than any of the other class skills. It has immediate utility that applies to my character all of the time and that affects other characters who are resting as well. It is a skill that will be used in almost every quest -- because almost every quest has rest shrines (and, yes, I'm well aware that there are some that do not).

At L20 with WIS 30 a cleric's heal skill will be more than 30, likely closer to 35, if they have put skill points into heal. For a typical character at L20 rest will give back 70 points w/o heal skill (and possibly less if there is a negative heal value due to low WIS). By being close by with 30 heal that number grows to 160 -- more likely 175.

That is 175 points of healing for every character that is close by and is easily equivalent to mass cure spells but at no mana cost at all. For pure efficiency I have a hard time justifying the resources spent -- either my own plat on scrolls & wands or the spell points expended in cures and heals -- when such a simple choice of taking the heal skill is there.

But, each person has to make their own determination of how to play their own character. IMO the heal skill provides good value.

While I wouldn't put points into the skill (Concentration, Balance are more important to me) you make a fine argument for a Heal +15 swap-in item.

[dkyle]

Each player has to determine what skills they believe are most valuable based on their own play style. In my case I have never had any use for scrolls so concerns about whether quicken works with scrolls has never been important.

I can't imagine healing a ToD without scrolls. Well, I can, but it involves chugging SP pots, which is not remotely acceptable to me, nor should it be to any new player.

So are you saying that you regularly heal Raids like VoD and ToD without using any scrolls? Are these PUGs, or finely-oiled Guild runs?

I also have had no use for UMD on a cleric or favored soul and have found diplomacy to be almost entirely worthless. But, that is me and my experience and I'm sure that others have found them essential parts of their character's build.

To be fair, I don't much value either myself. Which is why I put them so far down the list. But I'd still take them long before Heal.

I tend to use all or nearly all of my spell points on a routine basis. Just as I don't use scrolls I cannot justify using wands except as an emergency tool. So, when it comes time to shrine I find that I have almost no resources left to help the others in my party except the heal skill.

A mass cure without any metamagics costs almost nothing, and would heal about as much, or more, as 23 ranks in Heal skill adds.

What I do see happening a lot is those needing cures refusing to use rest shrines and instead expecting clerics or favored souls to top them off. Because the shrines are there for them to use and because they can gain back large numbers of extra HP by resting when I do I find that to be just selfish.

Uh... if you're actually as low on mana as you say you are, they're doing you a favor. Now you don't need to rebuff them after shrining.

I have a hard time accepting that I should enable that behavior by using wands or scrolls or healing bursts.

Why wouldn't you use a Healing Burst before you shrine? You'll get it back... And I really don't understand your aversion to scrolls and wands. Are you that low on plat?

It is much fewer spell points to toss a mass cure than to cast multiple heals (or even multiple individual cures).

Obviously. That point is not under dispute.

And, it is zero mana cost to rest and deliver additional HP because of a high heal skill.

Except for the cost of rebuffs.

That is 175 points of healing for every character that is close by and is easily equivalent to mass cure spells but at no mana cost at all. For pure efficiency I have a hard time justifying the resources spent -- either my own plat on scrolls & wands or the spell points expended in cures and heals -- when such a simple choice of taking the heal skill is there..

Let's be clear: the 23 ranks you can put into Heal adds 23*3 = 69 hit points. Anything else you could have without spending skill points on Heal. Compare that to the 15*3 = 45 HP you get just by swapping a +15 heal item that costs nothing but a negligible amount of plat and an inventory slot.

That's pocket change in healing, especially since you're about to get your SP and turn-uses back anyway. And it's not a simple choice; as in most things in life, there is a cost for that choice. If you're giving up concentration, balance and jump, you're giving up skills that could genuinely mean the difference between success and a wipe if things get hairy. All because you don't want to spare a healing burst or a few measly SP mass cure before a shrine?

[Therigar]

I can't imagine healing a ToD without scrolls. Well, I can, but it involves chugging SP pots, which is not remotely acceptable to me, nor should it be to any new player.

I have to admit that I have not run a ToD with any cleric or favored soul. I'm not sure, given the ToD's I've run on Therigar, that I see the need for scrolls but I'll have to admit that I've only been in successful ToD runs on normal. It seems to me that the need is for one tank healer and one group healer if not going for the optional -- two tank healers if you are. And, given the length of the final fights and the speed at which damage racks up on the tanks I can see trying to tank heal with just spell points as being problematic.

But, I'd say that this would be an exception rather than the norm and it is all just supposition on my part since I've never actually been the healer for a ToD.

Like the other parts of this discussion it points out differences in how we play. I'm not big on epics and I don't usually run ToD (when I do it is on a melee). So what a person might do in those situations isn't something I can really talk much about when it comes to clerics & favored souls.

What I can say is that I don't see any other skill being of more value in ToD to a cleric than the heal skill. And, since the discussion is on the utility of heal (and not really about using scrolls or wands or potions) I think that's where I'll leave it.

[Therigar]

Except for the cost of rebuffs.

This seems argumentative to me since the typical behavior is to rebuff at shrines in any case. In addition many buffs are not dispelled when resting -- explaining the popularity of ship invites and house favor.

If fact, the most common rebuffs right now are haste and rage -- both of which are short lived buffs when compared to the others and will be required in any case most of the time.

[Therigar]

Why wouldn't you use a Healing Burst before you shrine?

What happens when the healing burst isn't sufficient to replenish all of the HP needed?

Just because a character invests in the heal skill that does not mean it cannot or will not an enhancement. But, there may be times when it is not available because it has already been used up.

So the real question isn't about using healing burst (or even scrolls, wands or potions). The real question is about what skills exist for clerics that are a better investment of their skill points.

[ElfedLied4]

I tend to use all or nearly all of my spell points on a routine basis... So, when it comes time to shrine I find that I have almost no resources left to help the others in my party except the heal skill.

Therigar, I think that maybe if you tried another way of playing you may find that you like it better. If you swapped out the heal skill for concentration you would save 10 sp on every cast. After 3 or 4 casts you have enough mana saved to cast a healing spell at the shrine that restores even more hp than your previously maxed heal skill. (noting that the healing from the heal skill is 23 ranks*3 or 69 hp since wis bonus and items are boosting heal with or without the skill investment)

I'm not advocating dropping the quicken feat, just instead of having it on full time only use it when needed.