Urban Myths? or Useful Things?

[Therigar]

That's not an answer to why "brute force", as Therigar seems to define it (high DPS, low defenses, copious use of scrolls and other cheap consumables), is a bad approach to the game as it exists now.

The reason brute force is a bad play style is because it isn't effective in every situation. Because it is the play style that people learn and use starting with Korthos Island it leaves them unable to respond effectively when something else is needed.

Simple changes in character design and group approaches would add minimal time to quest completion but result in equally successful runs with fewer dependencies on others and lowered expenditures of resources. The simple reality for me, in any case, is that I wait on groups to fill -- much more than I actually spend in quests. So hurrying through so that I can wait again for another group doesn't actually make very good sense to me.

Another thread running this weekend is one by a rogue who asks if he qualifies as good DPS. The "glass cannon" is mentioned there. This certainly describes the vast majority of DPS characters.

This extremely fragile build mentality is so prevalent that clerics NEED to approach the game with the "I've saved enough SP to mass heal, saved a turn to toss a healing burst, bought scrolls to spot heal (which is how I saved mana)" attitude. What I would like people to know is that this is NOT how you have to play DDO and people who are in too much of a hurry to spend an extra 5 minutes on a quest have set a standard that you don't have to follow.

I've posted in the past on how as little AC as 60 can make a huge difference in survivability thru all non-epic content. That a player can achieve this while giving up only 2-4 STR points with minimal reduction in DPS is treated as anathma. Yet, by preventing even 30% of all hits players can create huge differences in cleric mana use.

I've posted in the past on how DPS is a trap becaue, in the end, players cause much more damage on the final strike that kills a mob than is needed. That means a reduction of 5-10 points damage doesn't even change how many swings were taken to get the kill. Of course that is met with complete confusion since it means that saving 6 build points by starting on 16 STR instead of 18, or even dropping to 14 STR, not only didn't ruin the character but somehow enabled it to have enough DEX for the TWF feat and maximum AC bonus to armor or let them run with 4 more points in CON to avoid being as squishy.

Brute force is bad because it leads to dozens of other bad choices by the players.

But, most of all it is bad because it leads them to believe that they are invincible and that all failures are the fault of slow, incompetent, stingy, unwilling to do all that is needed to save them clerics. It is why players insist on running a quest on elite when there is no possible way for them to complete without multiple deaths, trips to the Turbine Store for rez cakes (or recalls and re-entries) or the "OMG that was amazing" solo run by the cleric or fvs who puts all the soul-stones in his backpack and then uses an intelligent approach to complete the dungeon.

And this arrogance, this ignorant approach to dungeons, starts from the very earliest dungeons. I almost had to stop playing a while back because I was laughing so hard. WW part 1 elite the L4 TR fighter is soloing every encounter, sucking down haste pots, charging into every mob with total abandon. Ran into the named spider in the crate room, got webbed, ding. I voice chat "Looks like someone isn't invincible after all." That was around the time the rogue was disarming the fire trap and the rest of us were hanging out together.

Well, we saunter over to the spiders, pull them in small numbers (running like the little wussies that we were) until we managed to get the kills and take uberTR to the shrine (which was fortunately right there). UberTR raises, sucks a cure potion and gets a bit of wand assistance from my cleric dilly sorcerer. Then, straight out the shrine into the wolves, manages to open the lever and down to the water -- wolves and kobolds in tow.

Down in the water area the named kobold is waiting. Electric protection, what's that? Ding. I guess its my fault because over voice chat I say, "You'd think you would have learned after the first time." Alright. Pull, mob them, pull a few more, zap the named with weanie spells and ranged, hide, run, pull some more. Long story, we raise uberTR and then there are the spiders -- you know the bonus ones. We mention that they are especially tough on elite. Ding.

We didn't even bother. We just finished the quest.

UberTR rez's out and drops group. I'm sure it was because of something I said.

So why? Why did uberTR play so stupidly? Because it was all he knew and he mistakenly thought he was better than he was. Those of us who played smarter, as a team and used our resources to support one another completed with only 1 added death among the 5 of us.

Brute force is to blame for that kind of stupid play -- because at L20 in epic carnival uberTR can invis, jump, haste, get to the tent and mug a half-dozen mobs with crowd control from the L20 wizard -- and his complete lack of any redeemable quality means nothing.

And we perpetuate this type of horrendus play by insisting that players ought not to do the easy things to improve not only their own characters but to increase a group's chances for success -- substituting bad arguments favoring scrolls for mana management and pretending that what can be done for no cost and will always help is inferior to what has to be done at cost and is only usually helpful.

In other aspects of life we would call that behavior -- spending resources to help people do things that are clearly not in their best interest, even for marginal gains in performance or results.... We'd call that enabling.

I'm not going to help players to do bad things.

That's why I point out the utility of a skill -- and tell them they must choose to use it or not. It is why I point out the benefit of a 2 point drop in a stat in order to gain a 6 point increase elsewhere. It is why I point out that the "no AC matters" line is wrong -- that any character can easily get AC in the 50s and 60s which will matter on every bit of content until they hit epics.

It is why I counter the ill informed who insist Carnifex is a great THF weapon by pointing out that at L4 you can wield a race restricted weapon that will do more damage with an elemental falchion.

It is the reason I spend my time replying to posts like yours which spout the conventional wisdom of all the talking heads but don't give forum readers the whole story so that they can make informed choices.

My hat, were I wearing one, would be off to OP who after looking at all the relevant information said (essentially), "Thanks, got it, think I'll pass on the heal skill." But, for those of you who insist on calling me stupid, defender of the indefensible, ignorant, foolish -- and who pretend that calling the idea "foolish" isn't the same as calling the one who presents it a fool.... For those of you in that grouping I'm going to continue to show just how poor your arguements are.

Because the advice from that group of posters is the reason people play with brute force stupidity and are incapable of accepting even minimal changes. Changes that not only improve chances for success but also do so at less cost to all of the characters involved.

Brute force is one method among many. Pretending it is the only method or that it is acceptable regardless of cost is wrong. Needing to have it explained is even more wrong.

People who need the explanations probably shouldn't be giving advice to other players.

[dkyle]

The reason brute force is a bad play style is because it isn't effective in every situation. Because it is the play style that people learn and use starting with Korthos Island it leaves them unable to respond effectively when something else is needed.

It's very effective in many situations, and I find there are very few cases where more DPS, more HP, and more healing isn't sufficient.

The simple reality for me, in any case, is that I wait on groups to fill -- much more than I actually spend in quests. So hurrying through so that I can wait again for another group doesn't actually make very good sense to me.

The sooner you start waiting for groups to fill, the sooner you start playing again. And if I'm waiting for a group to fill, I'll do other things I like doing, like post on the forums or watch TV.

Another thread running this weekend is one by a rogue who asks if he qualifies as good DPS. The "glass cannon" is mentioned there. This certainly describes the vast majority of DPS characters.

Only if they're doing it wrong. Most DPS characters have copious amounts of HP. They are not "glass cannons".

This extremely fragile build mentality is so prevalent that clerics NEED to approach the game with the "I've saved enough SP to mass heal, saved a turn to toss a healing burst, bought scrolls to spot heal (which is how I saved mana)" attitude.

I don't see what's wrong with any of that. Healing is cheap and plentiful. Why not make full use of it?

I've posted in the past on how as little AC as 60 can make a huge difference in survivability thru all non-epic content. That a player can achieve this while giving up only 2-4 STR points with minimal reduction in DPS is treated as anathma. Yet, by preventing even 30% of all hits players can create huge differences in cleric mana use.

Please show how every melee class (I'll be nice and exclude Barbarians) can achieve 60 AC at only the cost of 2-4 STR. Oh, and in case you didn't realize: it doesn't count if it entails forgoing DPS feats and DPS gear. Those are costs.

And besides: I don't sweat non-Epics, non-Raids on my healer. They're trivial. I'll solo them if I feel like it. Telling me 60 AC helps in non-Epics is telling me something I already know. Tell me how it works in Epics and Raids. And what those characters that get 60 AC in non-Epics give up to get there, that would've help out in Epics and Raids where I actually care what they're capable of.

I've posted in the past on how DPS is a trap becaue, in the end, players cause much more damage on the final strike that kills a mob than is needed. That means a reduction of 5-10 points damage doesn't even change how many swings were taken to get the kill.

It will sometimes. Every overkill is a kill that could've happened earlier with more damage. And I guarantee you that the expected hits to kill is directly proportional to expected damage per hit.

And also, why are you talking about melee killing trash? Why do I care about trash? They'll steamroll it, or a caster will handle it. I want to know how melee do against bosses. Not much overkill there.

let them run with 4 more points in CON to avoid being as squishy.

Any melee that doesn't put 6 points into CON by default is an idiot. Really, apply that to any and all characters. Anything beyond that and you're looking at two build points per point of CON or more, and the returns diminish tremendously. Worth going for more on a THF Barb or caster, for example, less so on most TWF.

What game are you playing where dumping CON is remotely considered acceptable? Yes, newbs don't know not to dump CON, but here on the forums, the vast majority of us do our best to break them of that terrible habit.

But, most of all it is bad because it leads them to believe that they are invincible and that all failures are the fault of slow, incompetent, stingy, unwilling to do all that is needed to save them clerics. It is why players insist on running a quest on elite when there is no possible way for them to complete without multiple deaths, trips to the Turbine Store for rez cakes (or recalls and re-entries) or the "OMG that was amazing" solo run by the cleric or fvs who puts all the soul-stones in his backpack and then uses an intelligent approach to complete the dungeon.

You appear to be confusing stupidity with brute force. High DPS, high HP, lots of healing is not stupid, nor does it imply any of those things.

UberTR rez's out and drops group. I'm sure it was because of something I said.

Sounds like you played with an idiot that got to 20 and found a true heart in the store.

pretending that what can be done for no cost and will always help is inferior to what has to be done at cost and is only usually helpful.

Are you just not reading? Saying that Heal always helps and has no cost is just plain wrong. Obviously wrong.

In other aspects of life we would call that behavior -- spending resources to help people do things that are clearly not in their best interest, even for marginal gains in performance or results.... We'd call that enabling.

Wait... killing things faster isn't in our best interest?

It is why I counter the ill informed who insist Carnifex is a great THF weapon by pointing out that at L4 you can wield a race restricted weapon that will do more damage with an elemental falchion.

Right, because race restricted weapons with lots of damage effects are so easy to find. I have a Carnifex. I could've taken more many times. I do not have a RR weapon anywhere near enough to compete with it. Especially not one for each of the variety of races I've used. I do have some nice weapons that beat it well before the usual level 12 cutoff, but those are rare and I know it. Carnifex is a not too uncommon static drop from a great XP chain.

Once again, you utterly ignore the cost of something, while paying only attention to what it does. Heal does 69 points of damage for free! Yeah, only if you ignore the skills you dropped to get it. Which is strange considering how very concerned you are with plat costs.

and who pretend that calling the idea "foolish" isn't the same as calling the one who presents it a fool....

If this is directed at me... again, did you just not read? I called an idea you tried to ascribe to me foolish, not any of your ideas.

For those of you in that grouping I'm going to continue to show just how poor your arguements are.

What, by repeating the same things over and over and not actually addressing arguments presented to you?

You're still claiming that Heal is always useful despite unrebutted arguments showing how incredibly rare it actually provides something of value. Similarly, you're still claiming it has no cost when it obviously costs skill points. And those skill points could obviously be used on other skills that have at least some use.

Brute force is one method among many. Pretending it is the only method or that it is acceptable regardless of cost is wrong. Needing to have it explained is even more wrong.

It is neither the only method nor acceptable regardless of the cost. I don't believe I've ever said otherwise.

It is simply the best option in much of the end-game, and good enough in the rest. The cost is also, when Raids and quests are executed properly, negligible. Chugging SP pots is an unacceptable cost. Slinging wands and scrolls costs so little I still find it mind-boggling you care about it so much.

[Therigar]

Wait... killing things faster isn't in our best interest?

If every melee reduced their STR by 4 points saving 10 build points in the process and started with 14 STR rather than 18 -- then did everything else exactly the same with stat increases, gear, buffs, tomes, whatever -- the net difference in how long it took to kill any given mob will be less than 1 additional attack in most cases. Unless every player is only using auto-attack they will proc more animations than any difference in additional attacks in any case because they won't stop attacking when the mob actually dies.

So, you wouldn't actually lose anything by killing marginally slower in either time spent in the quest or in attacks proc'd by button pressing.

That you are killing things faster with "maximum" DPS is an illusion because you can forego 2 points of damage per hit, even multiplied by criticals, and you will not have made a meaningful change in how long the encounter lasted.

If you took those 10 build points and put them elsewhere in your build you would have a character that gets hit less often and thus requires less care. Or, you would have a character that has more hit points and thus requires less care. Or, you would have a character that has higher INT for more skill points so that it isn't making either/or choices but has a variety of skills with passive benefits.

[Faent]

Which only serves to illustrate my point that resting for an extra 90 points next to a high heal skilled character could be the difference between full blue bar or not.

Bad clerics are obsessed with full red bars. The melees never need a full red bar. If you are worried about using your blue bar to fill their red bar, you are worried about something you shouldn't be.

As has been pointed out, you can cheaply top off a red bar that isn't full (because it's missing a couple of HP since it's not constantly participating in a shrine-next-to-me-waste-of-time-I-HAZ-HEAL-fest) with a wand or scroll. There is no point in topping that red bar off, though. That red bar will catch the next mass heal/cure you have to toss, and be just fine. If the owner of the red bar is a competent melee, it doesn't want your Heal skill, and it doesn't need it.

[Therigar]

Are you just not reading? Saying that Heal always helps and has no cost is just plain wrong. Obviously wrong.

Remind me again what it costs a character to use skill points on the heal skill and how having a higher heal skill doesn't always generate more HP when resting?

Because you are advocating using plat to buy heal scrolls -- a cost. You are advocating using heal scrolls for target heals, thereby destroying them and requiring they be replaced -- a cost. You are advocating using up to 50 of them at a cost of ~13k plat in quests where you expect to make 10k plat -- not just a cost but a loss.

The cost I refer to is plat -- which is evident to anyone reading the comments in context. And it costs no plat whatsoever to have a good heal skill.

And, the heal skill always works. No skill check. No failure. No concentration check to make sure the use didn't get interrupted. It ALWAYS works.

So it is your position that is wrong. As it always has been in this regard.

[Faent]

I get it that some people use scrolls and potions and wands so that they avoid using their spell points -- or so that they can target heal rather than mass heal. But why?

One obvious reason: So they can use their SP to contribute more DPS and CC. It's called piking less and contributing more. It's also called not playing as a healbot. It's also known as playing to your full potential. And it's also known as playing your toon very well. If you want to be a lazy, sub-par healbot who doesn't reach his full potential and doesn't contribute much, feel free. But you won't be welcome in my groups or guild if that's your attitude. I really do have to wonder what guild would want a player so dead-set on not improving. Care to enlighten us there?

[Faent]

Remind me again what it costs a character to use skill points on the heal skill and how having a higher heal skill doesn't always generate more HP when resting?

It costs you a better skill point distribution, obviously. The better skill-point distribution makes you a greater party asset. Jump (up to a modifier of 10), Balance (as much as you can get) and UMD are obviously better choices, as almost everyone in this thread save yourself has managed to recognize.

Because you are advocating using plat to buy heal scrolls -- a cost. You are advocating using heal scrolls for target heals, thereby destroying them and requiring they be replaced -- a cost. You are advocating using up to 50 of them at a cost of ~13k plat in quests where you expect to make 10k plat -- not just a cost but a loss.

Memory fail? 50 Heal scrolls does not cost ~13K plat. At the base price, it's 8250 plat. If you want to drop that cost more, you can roll a Haggle Bard. If you're struggling to fund all your lowbie toons (and so being stingy and failing to contribute to quests on your healer at a high level), then you definitely should roll up a Haggle Bard. You'll stop struggling to fund your toons, and you will be able to begin playing all your toons at a much higher level.

And again, you don't always need those 50 Heal scrolls. But every once in a while you do. And when you don't have them, you're a large part of the reason the raid goes south. If tossing a few Heal scrolls would have saved a raid, and you didn't do it because you didn't have them, I'd lay the blame for failure primarily at your feet. Incompetent healers don't carry Heal scrolls. Some of them don't know better. That's fine. But YOU not carrying Heal scrolls for the times things go south is simply inexcusable.

You are, by your own admission, quite proud of being an incompetent healer. I frequently make up for incompetent healers on my melees, by assisting them in healing with my own heal scrolls. I don't pike on any toons. You do. You pike on your healer. And you're so proud of it! I'm simply astonished. Do you also pike this much on all your other toons, or do you work hard to ensure that your melees are performing at the highest level they can perform at? And if you do that, why won't you do it on your healer?

[GotSomeQuestions]

It costs you a better skill point distribution, obviously. The better skill-point distribution makes you a greater party asset. Jump (up to a modifier of 10), Balance (as much as you can get) and UMD are obviously better choices, as almost everyone in this thread save yourself has managed to recognize.

It's more than that. If you want UMD (just UMD), you need to invest at least 2 points in Int, or play a Human. If you also want Concentration, Balance, and some Jump, you need to invest even more. Those points could go to Wisdom or Constitution (if either isn't maxed or near-maxed), for more casting power or hp. They could go to Strength for some melee ability and carrying capacity, or to Charisma for a different melee boost and extra turns (hey, free healing!). Even Dexterity for a boost to Reflex saves and AC. But if you *also* want to put ranks in Heal, you have to put even more points in Int. You're giving up useful skills, or useful stats.

One Radiant Burst (or better yet, Aura) will give back more healing than 23 ranks in the Heal skill, and it gives that healing when *you* want it. There's basically no situation where the extra +2 Int you need to get the skill points to invest in Heal is better than taking a +2 Cha for the extra Turn, unless you're already running the minimum possible Intelligence score and somehow still have skill points to burn.

[Habreno]

It costs you a better skill point distribution, obviously. The better skill-point distribution makes you a greater party asset. Jump (up to a modifier of 10), Balance (as much as you can get) and UMD are obviously better choices, as almost everyone in this thread save yourself has managed to recognize.



Memory fail? 50 Heal scrolls does not cost ~13K plat. At the base price, it's 8250 plat. If you want to drop that cost more, you can roll a Haggle Bard. If you're struggling to fund all your lowbie toons (and so being stingy and failing to contribute to quests on your healer at a high level), then you definitely should roll up a Haggle Bard. You'll stop struggling to fund your toons, and you will be able to begin playing all your toons at a much higher level.

And again, you don't always need those 50 Heal scrolls. But every once in a while you do. And when you don't have them, you're a large part of the reason the raid goes south. If tossing a few Heal scrolls would have saved a raid, and you didn't do it because you didn't have them, I'd lay the blame for failure primarily at your feet. Incompetent healers don't carry Heal scrolls. Some of them don't know better. That's fine. But YOU not carrying Heal scrolls for the times things go south is simply inexcusable.

By the way, MY Cleric, without ANY points in the Haggle Skill, can hit a mid-30's Haggle. Heal Scrolls from the Guild Vendor cost me about 13,500 plat for a stack of 100. 6,750 plat for 50 scrolls. By the time I need to buy another stack of 100 scrolls I'll have pulled in about 30k plat from vendor trash. Not counting the times where you pull loot that's actually good.

And Concentration is a much better skill by many miles than Heal. Just consider if you took the 23 points in Concentration and put them in Heal. Your concentration score is now about 30 instead of mid-50's and you will need Quicken every time. Perhaps this explains why you're so fond of Heal as a skill- it lets you be more inefficent and makes you buff everyone after shrining. (Note: this is not the "you" as in the poster I quoted; this is the "you" as in the poster advocating a poor skill)

NEWS FLASH: Concentration can eliminate the need for Quicken. I have a Concentration in the mid-50's with normal party buffs, and hit 60+ in raids. And this is nowhere near the limits of the skill.

[Therigar]

It costs you a better skill point distribution, obviously. The better skill-point distribution makes you a greater party asset. Jump (up to a modifier of 10), Balance (as much as you can get) and UMD are obviously better choices, as almost everyone in this thread save yourself has managed to recognize.

Jump does not need to be raised to +10 in order to negotiate any jump in the game. The only remotely difficult jump in the game is epic carnival. Since I'm invisible by that time I can take off any negative modifying item (like armor), put on a positive modifying item, get a jump spell, grab a skill buff and play Super Mario. Then, when I get to the top I re-equip as necessary and go on. And, if I'm human or if I've used a +2 tome I can have 6 jump ranks in any case without sacrificing the heal skill.

Balance does not need to be very high at all for any quest in the game. In the very few where balance might actually be useful you can put on a balance item that will give you a sufficiently high balance skill. The only quest specifically identified as a real problem is eVoN 6. I would have added a couple of others where it is useful but they don't have the issues with consequences if you decide to lay on the ground for a long while.

UMD is simultaneously the most undervalued and the most overhyped skill in DDO. Yes, it could let you do all sorts of self-buffing tricks. No, you absolutely don't need it for those things because every one of them is available from your friendly party members. Any nonsense arguement about not being a drain on party resources cuts two ways -- that's fine, then let them heal themselves.

You do not have a case. Seriously, you do not have a single skill that you identify as needed that cannot be met in some other way with equal effectiveness.

Now, you might say the same about the heal skill since you can achieve the same or better effect with the mass heal spell or with mass cures.

Which brings us full circle to my original point about the heal skill.

If you are like me and you use all your mana on other things then you don't always have it saved up for the heal-before-you-shrine moment. But, because the heal skill does as advertised if I have that skill everyone resting when I do will gain a minimum of 135 extra hit points just for hanging out together.

Now, if that seems good to you as it does to me and if you tend to find yourself without a blue bar come rest time as I do then you might find the heal skill useful. If that isn't where you find yourself then you might not. But you have to decide for yourself knowing that it does do what the description says it does.

[Therigar]

NEWS FLASH: Concentration can eliminate the need for Quicken. I have a Concentration in the mid-50's with normal party buffs, and hit 60+ in raids. And this is nowhere near the limits of the skill.

This is approaching the worst advice in this thread.

The primary purpose of quicken is to speed up spell casting. It has the added benefit of making spells impossible to interrupt. We've already shown how the concentration skill works. And we've already seen that the mid 50s concentration did get interrupted in quests.

If people paid attention they'd also have seen that the same places where I want fast spell casting are the places where spell interruption is most likely to occur.

Concentration is no substitute for quicken -- although quicken can remove the need for concentration.

Habreno is incorrect.

[Therigar]

Heal Scrolls from the Guild Vendor cost me about 13,500 plat for a stack of 100. 6,750 plat for 50 scrolls. By the time I need to buy another stack of 100 scrolls I'll have pulled in about 30k plat from vendor trash. Not counting the times where you pull loot that's actually good.

On any melee character I play I will clear 30k of vendor trash without exceeding 2k in repair bills.

So, easy math. 30k - 13.5k < 30k - 2k.

To pretend that there is some equality -- or even equity -- between the two is misleading to any one, yourself included. To say that if groups want or expect that from clerics means they need to chip in doesn't seem the least unfair.

BTW, anyone figure out yet why the aversion to mnemonic potions? Check out how often the non-spell casters loot them and then look at AH prices.

I know it is unreasonable to suggest that the party members contribute to the cleric's effort to keep them healed. I mean, why would they when the cleric is willing to net more than 10k less and let them sell things like mnemonics for absurd prices?

If the posts by dkyle and Habreno and Faent represent all clerics then hey, I'll join the club. Spend your plat and keep me healed. I'll LR my fvs into a melee spec and pretend he does real DPS.

[Habreno]

This is approaching the worst advice in this thread.

The primary purpose of quicken is to speed up spell casting. It has the added benefit of making spells impossible to interrupt. We've already shown how the concentration skill works. And we've already seen that the mid 50s concentration did get interrupted in quests.

If people paid attention they'd also have seen that the same places where I want fast spell casting are the places where spell interruption is most likely to occur.

Concentration is no substitute for quicken -- although quicken can remove the need for concentration.

Habreno is incorrect.

Quite simple: if you're insisting on using the more dangerous Mass Heal to heal the party in Epics and end-game questing, you'll need Quicken. It's much easier to simply cast Mass Cures, use clickies to boost them, and get more healing out quicker, albeit at a marginally greater SP cost. Concentration is absolutely a vital skill for ANY Cleric to have.

[GotSomeQuestions]

UMD is simultaneously the most undervalued and the most overhyped skill in DDO. Yes, it could let you do all sorts of self-buffing tricks. No, you absolutely don't need it for those things because every one of them is available from your friendly party members. Any nonsense arguement about not being a drain on party resources cuts two ways -- that's fine, then let them heal themselves.

UMD doesn't shine for Divines in party play the way it does for everyone else (using Raise scrolls as an arcane, or better yet, a melee, is huge), but it's still quite useful for soloing (invisibility, displacement, etc). And for Teleport scrolls. Occasionally even for race- or alignment- restricted items.

If you spend more time waiting for groups than you do in quests, why not build a character that's dramatically more survivable in solo or small group play? DDO is a lot more fun when you don't have to wait around for the perfect group--UMD isn't just about being self-sufficient, it's about being able to cover for a missing Arcane caster or Bard, so that you can just go do the quest.

And again, unless you have absolutely the minimum possible Intelligence score, you get more healing out of Wisdom (more sp) or Charisma (more turns) than you do from the investment in Intelligence you'd need to have the points for Heal.

[Therigar]

One Radiant Burst (or better yet, Aura) will give back more healing than 23 ranks in the Heal skill, and it gives that healing when *you* want it. There's basically no situation where the extra +2 Int you need to get the skill points to invest in Heal is better than taking a +2 Cha for the extra Turn, unless you're already running the minimum possible Intelligence score and somehow still have skill points to burn.

There is a lot right in this post so it deserves a calm response rather than the exasperation I have with the likes of dkyle and Habreno and Faent who seem intent on just rehashing the same points.

For my way of playing I build clerics with 16 WIS and at least 16 CON. I do not put additional points into INT but dump it totally. I almost always play dwarves when I run clerics (although I did run a drow on Ghallanda ages ago and well before the PrE came out).

Now, because I almost always play dwarves that means adjusted CON is normally 18 for me and I have 12 build points remaining -- I am not restricted to 28 point builds. I normally will increase STR to 14 because I like the carrying capacity and the ability to hit things in melee. At early levels before blade barrier I'm still able to handle most mob situations.

The last 6 points I normally put into DEX. If I don't I put it into raising WIS to max with the intent of increasing the DC on spells.

Now, that all is important because it leaves me with very few turns. And, much of a cleric's enhancement options rely on trading a turn attempt. This is an intentional choice that I rarely adjust.

By habit I will buy a supreme tome from Turbine and raise all stats 2 points at L7.

So, when I say that I expend all my resources prior to shrining that is exactly what takes place for me. If I am of level to have bursts I will have used them along the way. When it comes shrine time there is every probability that I don't have a burst left or enough spell points to cast a mass anything.

Once I hit level for mass cures I run with empower healing and maximize always on. IMO the added spell cost is justified by the extra curative power of the spells. And, as much as possible I use mass cures rather than spot cures or heals because I can affect more characters at once -- which makes the spell more efficient than casting multiple separate cures.

Depending on the quest I will avoid using spell points for any purpose other than healing or emergency buffs. When that doesn't seem to be required I will rather freely expend spell points on offensive spells.

All of that brings me to the same observation that I've made time and again in this thread. By the time it comes to shrining I have nothing left to give.

So there might be a burst but there won't be a mass heal. There might be a mass cure but there won't be a burst. In all probability there won't be either a burst or a mass anything.

What can I do that is still useful to the group without using scrolls, wands or potions? I can use the heal skill while resting.

I don't need UMD. Anything I need that I might UMD I can get as a buff from a party member.

I don't need concentration. Although I use to take concentration it becomes totally worthless once I take quicken. At some point I always take quicken because there are times when I want to cast faster. Since that matches when I want to guarantee I'm not interrupted quicken is the solution.

I don't need diplomacy. I never want to shed agro if I have it. I only have it if I want it to start with. The few cases when that's not true I turtle up or run like a sissy to the melees or pop a blade barrier and go into kiting mode.

I don't need jump. That's been discussed enough.

Of all the other skills that I might want or use the only one is balance. Without multiclassing balance is always a cross-class skill. Max ranks will always be 11.5, 11 useful ranks. Using a +2 tome at L7 gets me 6 balance ranks. A quick check of balance discussions shows that this is enough for almost all content. For the very few times when it might not be enough I can swap in a balance item to compensate. And, while observing that this uses an item slot is valid there is no content where every slot needs to be taken up so that I can't retain that option.

So, you make a good observation but I really believe that I can afford the heal skill and that I get more utility out of it that I do from any of the alternatives you suggest.

[Therigar]

UMD doesn't shine for Divines in party play the way it does for everyone else (using Raise scrolls as an arcane, or better yet, a melee, is huge), but it's still quite useful for soloing (invisibility, displacement, etc). And for Teleport scrolls. Occasionally even for race- or alignment- restricted items.

If you spend more time waiting for groups than you do in quests, why not build a character that's dramatically more survivable in solo or small group play?

Maybe you play much differently than I do.

I can solo pretty much anything that I'd want to solo on my divine characters. And, I can do that without needing any of the things you mention.

I appreciate people who use UMD for the things you mention. I just don't find the need for it. In the few places where those might help I generally have items of some sort with enough similarity for my needs.

[Therigar]

One obvious reason: So they can use their SP to contribute more DPS and CC. It's called piking less and contributing more. It's also called not playing as a healbot. It's also known as playing to your full potential.

Although this has been said a zillion times already:

I find the heal skill useful because I use up all my spell points in other things -- like blade barrier or non-healing spells.

AND

If you are playing to your full potential then why aren't you giving an easy HP boost at rest time to all your party members by taking the heal skill. It's tough to inartfully insult a person and call them a piker who doesn't play to their full potential when you advocate not doing something easy that has demonstrable benefit to the party.

[Therigar]

You appear to be confusing stupidity with brute force. High DPS, high HP, lots of healing is not stupid, nor does it imply any of those things.



Sounds like you played with an idiot that got to 20 and found a true heart in the store.

Left these two together because they are short.

Brute force is stupid, there's no confusion. High DPS, high HP, lots of healing is bad play even for those encounters where there is no way to mitigate the number of mobs you have to deal with or to avoid resolution through overwhelming force.

The idiot isn't some random encounter -- it describes a phenomenon that most new players recognize because it happens daily on every server.

[Therigar]

Quite simple: if you're insisting on using the more dangerous Mass Heal to heal the party in Epics and end-game questing, you'll need Quicken. It's much easier to simply cast Mass Cures, use clickies to boost them, and get more healing out quicker, albeit at a marginally greater SP cost. Concentration is absolutely a vital skill for ANY Cleric to have.

Quite simple:

If the party's DPS is taking hundreds of points of damage on every hit so that you have to spam curatives at them you want to guarantee that two things happen: 1) you spam fast enough and 2) you never fail to cast.

Concentration does not do that.

Quicken does.

If the party's DPS is too low to beat the boss or mob before the clerics run out of spell points then the group's DPS isn't enough to do the quest. That doesn't mean the cleric should avoid quicken. It means the DPS should step it up.

Even more simple:

Lag.

Concentration means failure. Quicken means you at least had a chance to get the spell off first.

[Therigar]

Plus your point is completely moot because Radiant Servant recharges turns, and at worst you have to wait 2 minutes to toss a burst.

Of all the things you've posted this comes closest to having some real value and I'm not sure I've responded to it adequately (although it's been raised by others and I have replied).

Here's the quick version: If players won't sit down to shrine and reap the benefits of my WIS modifier plus my heal item modifier plus my heal skill modifier because it takes too much time, what makes anyone think they'll stick around for 2 minutes to wait on a burst to recharge?

To take it a bit longer, objections to resting are just throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks. They mean nothing. What buffs are you risking? Ship buffs last an hour. There are almost no quests where you really need more than that. That means you aren't risking any buffs being lost.

On top of that, bards habitually renew their buffs after rest and do so automatically and without thinking. That covers most of the protective buffs in quests like GH and blur and so on. Of those most need renewal anyway not because they've run out but because at least part of them has worn out (like the HP boosts or the elemental resistances -- of which 4 typically remain while the other is totally gone).

So truth is that each rest is accompanied by rebuffs anyway.

But, if you cannot even get the group to stop to rest and rebuff what makes anyone believe they'll hang out for 2 minutes for your burst to recharge?