Urban Myths? or Useful Things?

[danotmano1998]

What I can say is that I don't see any other skill being of more value in ToD to a cleric than the heal skill. And, since the discussion is on the utility of heal (and not really about using scrolls or wands or potions) I think that's where I'll leave it.

Your opinion is just as valid as everyone else's.
Thank you for the input and for being the one person who argues in favor of the heal skill.

I think for my playstyle (and apparently for a lot of others as well) heal is, at best, a poor choice for those very few skill points.

[Therigar]

Why wouldn't you use a Healing Burst before you shrine?

What happens when the healing burst isn't sufficient to replenish all of the HP needed?

Just because a character invests in the heal skill that does not mean it cannot or will not an enhancement. But, there may be times when it is not available because it has already been used up.

So the real question isn't about using healing burst (or even scrolls, wands or potions). The real question is about what skills exist for clerics that are a better investment of their skill points.

[Therigar]

I think for my playstyle (and apparently for a lot of others as well) heal is, at best, a poor choice for those very few skill points.

And that is more than fair.

[kernal42]

So the real question isn't about using healing burst (or even scrolls, wands or potions). The real question is about what skills exist for clerics that are a better investment of their skill points.

Of which there are plenty. In no particular order:

Concentration
UMD
Balance
Jump (some)
Tumble (some)
Even Diplomacy is more useful to a cleric than the heal skill.

-Kernal

[dkyle]

I have to admit that I have not run a ToD with any cleric or favored soul. I'm not sure, given the ToD's I've run on Therigar, that I see the need for scrolls but I'll have to admit that I've only been in successful ToD runs on normal. It seems to me that the need is for one tank healer and one group healer if not going for the optional -- two tank healers if you are. And, given the length of the final fights and the speed at which damage racks up on the tanks I can see trying to tank heal with just spell points as being problematic.

Yeah, trying to heal through SP alone would be madness in there. EChrono is another place where they're basically required. Even VoD seems iffy to me without them, but doable.

But, I'd say that this would be an exception rather than the norm and it is all just supposition on my part since I've never actually been the healer for a ToD.

But a single exception is enough. If you ever plan to heal ToD, concentration is not something you can ignore, because healing scrolls are very important in there, and a single concentration failure could easily mean the death of the tank, and that can rapidly progress to a wipe, or a at least require consumption of a huge number of pots. And with orthons teleporting around unpredictably, you can't just avoid damage.

Like the other parts of this discussion it points out differences in how we play. I'm not big on epics and I don't usually run ToD (when I do it is on a melee). So what a person might do in those situations isn't something I can really talk much about when it comes to clerics & favored souls.

Such caveats would be good in an advice thread. I always approach new players with the assumption that they hope to someday excel in all parts of the game.

What I can say is that I don't see any other skill being of more value in ToD to a cleric than the heal skill. And, since the discussion is on the utility of heal (and not really about using scrolls or wands or potions) I think that's where I'll leave it.

Jump is always useful whenever you might have to avoid a large group of enemies (say if Orthons get out of control). Balance is at least a little useful due to the Bezekiras. Not much since noone cares about those interstitial fights, but then again Heal is just as useless. If you actually can't afford a mass cure at the end of part 1 or part 2 something terrible must have happened.

And your logic is flawed. Even if other skills aren't much better than Heal in ToD, you don't get to choose skills on a per quest basis. Balance is clearly useful in other quests.

This seems argumentative to me since the typical behavior is to rebuff at shrines in any case. In addition many buffs are not dispelled when resting -- explaining the popularity of ship invites and house favor.

FoM, DW (at pre-mass DW levels), Resists (most ships don't have more than fire; House P is only 20 point) all last enough for many whole quests, especially if you have extend. Refreshing even a couple of those buffs will cost about as much as using a mass cure to duplicate the benefits of resting for HP.

In a Raid, the usual expectation is that you'll have plenty of SP to buff before shrining. I honestly can't think of a single Raid where it's remotely common to run out of mana before a shrine, except at the very end of it.

[kinar]

After years of playing I have finally seen everything there is to see in DDO.

I never thought I would see someone on the forums advocating investing in the heal skill that wasn't misguided in how it functions.

[dkyle]

But, there may be times when it is not available because it has already been used up.

This is the crux of the issue.

Putting ranks in Heal is useful when: you've reached a shrine, you're literally out of mana and turns, unwilling to use scrolls and wands that cost almost nothing, you expect to run out of mana and turns by the time you hit the next shrine, and 69 points of healing is enough to matter and not something you can just let slide until the next time you cast Mass Heal, and wouldn't be a waste on top of the healing everyone'll get either way at the shrine, and the cost of healing everyone up after shrining isn't more than the cost of rebuffing people who shrined solely to get HP back.

Concentration is useful anytime you're casting a scroll and could get interrupted. Which, it seems, isn't something you do, but "don't heal ToD or most Epics" isn't exactly good advice for everyone. It's also useful if you're getting a little low on SP, and want to turn Quicken off.

Jump is useful anytime you're getting overwhelmed with enemies, and for certain quests just to navigate them.

Balance is useful in a myriad of quests where tripping and knockdown can occur, and can easily mean the difference between success and a wipe if things get hairy.

Diplomacy is useful anytime you draw aggro and can't handle it.


You're fixating on a very rare, very obscure scenario that barely matters at all when it happens, in expense of skills that are frequently useful all throughout the game, and in significant ways.

[TheDjinnFor]

You're fixating on a very rare, very obscure scenario that barely matters at all when it happens, in expense of skills that are frequently useful all throughout the game, and in significant ways.

This.

[Therigar]

I never thought I would see someone on the forums advocating investing in the heal skill that wasn't misguided in how it functions.

Let's be clear. My advice is based on what I find to be of better utility for me. It does not mean that anyone else has to follow it.

Assuming that I totally dump INT then I typically have 1 skill point per level to invest until I hit L7 and use a +2 tome. After that I typically have 2 skill points.

I find that there is little need to invest heavily in Concentration as it is covered for me by the Quicken feat and I don't have need to use scrolls. I find there is little need for Diplomacy because I seldom draw aggro and there are otherwise very few quests where the skill is used.

What then do I have need for? Jump is useful but rarely actually demanded in a quest. When it is needed a L1 arcane spell covers it. Balance is hard to argue against but again is seldom needed. If I were to identify a skill that merited more attention it might be here but I've run many characters with no investment in balance whatsoever.

So, the bottom line is that the choice depends on what a player really wants from their character and expects to encounter. I could go on skill by skill but that is just silly when my bottom line is so obvious.

OP has indicated that he's satisfied with his style of play putting heal low on the list. And, I've no problem with that. I only feel that we should give the skill a fair shake and actually understand its utility.

[Therigar]

This is the crux of the issue.

Putting ranks in Heal is useful when: you've reached a shrine, you're literally out of mana and turns, unwilling to use scrolls and wands that cost almost nothing, you expect to run out of mana and turns by the time you hit the next shrine, and 69 points of healing is enough to matter and not something you can just let slide until the next time you cast Mass Heal, and wouldn't be a waste on top of the healing everyone'll get either way at the shrine, and the cost of healing everyone up after shrining isn't more than the cost of rebuffing people who shrined solely to get HP back.

Concentration is useful anytime you're casting a scroll and could get interrupted. Which, it seems, isn't something you do, but "don't heal ToD or most Epics" isn't exactly good advice for everyone. It's also useful if you're getting a little low on SP, and want to turn Quicken off.

Jump is useful anytime you're getting overwhelmed with enemies, and for certain quests just to navigate them.

Balance is useful in a myriad of quests where tripping and knockdown can occur, and can easily mean the difference between success and a wipe if things get hairy.

Diplomacy is useful anytime you draw aggro and can't handle it.


You're fixating on a very rare, very obscure scenario that barely matters at all when it happens, in expense of skills that are frequently useful all throughout the game, and in significant ways.

Again, I think you are being argumentative. What isn't clear is why since the OP has already said that his way of playing puts heal low on the priority list.

Each of your "this skill is better" examples could be construed as alarmist. The fact is that I rarely see any of those situations. And, while I accept that your experience is such that you cannot envision healing in epics or ToD without scrolls I am not certain that this is really required. I accept your point of view because I've not done it with any healer character but that stops short of causing your claim to be categorically true.

So, I'm not fixating on anything and I find your characterization of my views in that manner to be intentionally combative. I've clearly said that resting at shrines is something that happens in almost every quest. So helping characters to recover additional HP during rest is neither a rare or obscure scenario.

Heal helps my character to recover more HP during a rest. Heal helps those characters that I am near to recover more HP when they rest. For me it is a useful skill and there are no other class skills that are more useful. That may not be the case for others and if it isn't that is fine.

[dkyle]

Again, I think you are being argumentative.

Well, yes, I believe I am arguing. Why shouldn't I make my case?

I've clearly said that resting at shrines is something that happens in almost every quest.

Yes, but is resting at a shrine with the specific set of circumstances I outlined something that happens in almost every quest?

Because unless the situations fits every single criteria I specified, Heal gains you absolutely nothing of value when you rest.

Just because something is used frequently doesn't mean it does anything of value when used.

[Therigar]

Well, yes, I believe I am arguing. Why shouldn't I make my case?

Nobody's suggesting that you not make your case, just that you not be argumentative in doing so.

[ElfedLied4]

I tend to use all or nearly all of my spell points on a routine basis... So, when it comes time to shrine I find that I have almost no resources left to help the others in my party except the heal skill.

Therigar, I think that maybe if you tried another way of playing you may find that you like it better. If you swapped out the heal skill for concentration you would save 10 sp on every cast. After 3 or 4 casts you have enough mana saved to cast a healing spell at the shrine that restores even more hp than your previously maxed heal skill. (noting that the healing from the heal skill is 23 ranks*3 or 69 hp since wis bonus and items are boosting heal with or without the skill investment)

I'm not advocating dropping the quicken feat, just instead of having it on full time only use it when needed.

[dkyle]

Nobody's suggesting that you not make your case, just that you not be argumentative in doing so.

My point is that argument is not dirty word. It's how people with different opinions make their case. I'm arguing because I think you are not presenting a good case for advising any player to spend points in Heal.

If you mean 'argumentative' to suggest that I have overstepped the bounds of civil discourse, then that's quite different. I do not believe I have done so.

[Illiain]

The real question is about what skills exist for clerics that are a better investment of their skill points.

EVON, Velah's wing buffet is a trip effect. Most nannybots will have dumped both strength and dex. This means you'll probably fail the DC 20 Str/Dex check to resist the trip. You now need to make a balance check to stand up with the same DC as the trip. Until you succeed on the balance check you're not healing anyone.

You're fighting any boss that can cast fireball/DBF, and typically targets back line people, such as Shroud. Using a Fireshield (cold) scroll will cause any stray DBFs that hit you to deal 1/2 damage, with a chance to save for even less. I've seen too many nannybots one shotted by a meteor swarm or DBF because they thought they were safe well behind the lines. Having UMD will easily allow you to deal with this and survive to keep healing. My melee 20 Chr FvS has a 25-30 UMD, anyone can get 11 ranks, plus +5 chr skills GS, and GH for a semiuseful UMD.

[Habreno]

Concentration is not a dump skill. And it is possible to get a useful Concentration score for many, if not all, Epics. It saves you 10 SP for EVERY CAST. I don't know of any other skill that has such a profound effect on the game as Concentration does-so much of an effect I recommend putting points into the skill using AP, which are rare to do.

Was healing an EChrono last night, and failed only 4 concentration checks. The damage numbers on those?

109
120
75
90

To succeed on 75 points of damage requires a Concentration score, at minimum, of 72, for a level 6 spell (MCMW, which is what I was casting) and that's when you roll a 20.

I always have a Concentration score, purely unbuffed, around 50. Normal group buffs take that to 55 or so. Raid buffed is 65 or so, with "star-aligned buffs" nearing 70 or more (Managed that ONCE-ESnitch, with a Light monk, an Arcane, and a Bard, who all tossed all their buffs. Needless to say, I was meleeing in the final boss with a BAB of 52-52-57-62 while TWFing with no melee feats and keeping the party healed with absolutely no problem maintaining concentration); that 65 Concentration means that I can comfortably scroll-top-up single targets while easily keeping mass cures on the group.

For the record, to calculate how much damage you can take before breaking concentration:

(Concentration score + d20 die roll)-(11*+ spell level + damage)

If the total is 0 or higher, you succeed on the check. Under 0, you fail the check.

*Yes, the description says 10 + spell level + damage, but if you are casting a level 5 spell and taking 35 damage, and you have a 30 concentration score and roll a 20, you will fail. The 1 extra compensates for such ties, making a 0 a success, and anything under a fail. Note that this is what I have seen, and may not be 100% accurate as it's difficult to test such rolls.

[Therigar]

I'm not advocating dropping the quicken feat, just instead of having it on full time only use it when needed.

I DO only use it when I need it. Right now that is almost never. And, I find that I don't need Concentration either. But that is because I am seldom in situations where I'm getting pounded on while spell casting.

What I would respond in counter to your recommendation is that you rethink how you run your divine characters and try it my way.

[Therigar]

EVON, Velah's wing buffet is a trip effect. Most nannybots will have dumped both strength and dex. This means you'll probably fail the DC 20 Str/Dex check to resist the trip. You now need to make a balance check to stand up with the same DC as the trip. Until you succeed on the balance check you're not healing anyone.

Of all the cross-class feats balance is the one that I would consider as having the most value and I've said as much. To pretend something different is misleading. Pretending that EVoN is typical is equally misleading.

You're fighting any boss that can cast fireball/DBF, and typically targets back line people, such as Shroud. Using a Fireshield (cold) scroll will cause any stray DBFs that hit you to deal 1/2 damage, with a chance to save for even less. I've seen too many nannybots one shotted by a meteor swarm or DBF because they thought they were safe well behind the lines. Having UMD will easily allow you to deal with this and survive to keep healing. My melee 20 Chr FvS has a 25-30 UMD, anyone can get 11 ranks, plus +5 chr skills GS, and GH for a semiuseful UMD.

OK, I give up, how many bosses are there other than Harry that do this? Because I just can't put my finger on the other quests where this is a problem. Only, in this case I can speak to it and healing during Shroud runs and have to say that it has not ever been a problem for me. Maybe that is because I can see them coming at me and move if I need to....

As with other examples, IMO these are extreme cases that do not come close to describing common place events. And, pretending that they are routine concerns is disingenuous.

[Therigar]

To succeed on 75 points of damage requires a Concentration score, at minimum, of 72, for a level 6 spell (MCMW, which is what I was casting) and that's when you roll a 20.

For the record, to calculate how much damage you can take before breaking concentration:

(Concentration score + d20 die roll)-(11*+ spell level + damage)

If the total is 0 or higher, you succeed on the check. Under 0, you fail the check.

I'm confused by your math.

72 (concentration skill) + 20 = 92.
11*6 (spell level) + 75 = 141.

92 - 141 = -42.

In fact, to succeed you would have had to sustain no more than 92 - 66 = 26 points of damage if you've accurately described how Concentration works.

Fortunately, you have misrepresented how Concentration works. The actual formula is found in this Wiki.

What we see if we use the correct formula is d20 + Concentration skill > 10 + damage + spell level. With 72 Concentration and a roll of 20 a character has a 92 which must be greater than 10 + damage + spell level. For a L6 spell this means 92 - 16 = 76 and a character should succeed if damage is 75 points or less.

The real point of concentration is to get to where you cannot fail even on a roll of 1.

I always have a Concentration score, purely unbuffed, around 50. Normal group buffs take that to 55 or so. Raid buffed is 65 or so, with "star-aligned buffs" nearing 70 or more (Managed that ONCE-ESnitch, with a Light monk, an Arcane, and a Bard, who all tossed all their buffs. Needless to say, I was meleeing in the final boss with a BAB of 52-52-57-62 while TWFing with no melee feats and keeping the party healed with absolutely no problem maintaining concentration); that 65 Concentration means that I can comfortably scroll-top-up single targets while easily keeping mass cures on the group.

Full ranks in Concentration is 23. Concentration is a CON skill. That is important because few characters will put more into CON after character creation. Assuming 16 CON with +2 tome and +6 CON item that is 24 for another +7 boost -- total 30. Add +3 exceptional CON skills (highly unusual but not impossible) to get to 33. Include a +15 Concentration item for 48. Four enhancements raises the number to 52.

Without meaning to be negative I will point out that we are already in the atypical situation here. Ship buffed CON, skill boosts and other help might raise the number higher but the notion that normal and raid buffs will typically increase a player's Concentration score to 55 or 65 is misleading.

That isn't to say that specific characters don't occassionally end up with those numbers. But it is to say that it isn't usual.

At 55 Concentration the no fail number is 56. So for L6 spells the most damage you can take w/o failing the check (guaranteed) is 40 points. Anything over 60 points is certain failure.

By comparison, quicken has zero failure regardless of damage sustained.

I don't mind people giving examples to make their points. I do mind when those examples push atypical situations and pretend that they are normal. As I mind when their maths don't support their assertions.

[Bodic]

2. Maximize affects your Cure spells/bursts.
.

Not Heal or Mass Heal the only Meta for them is Empower Healing