A desperate paladin in need of advices.

[Such755]

Here's a little story:
When I first creater my Paladin, I wanted him to be something that will contribute to the party, be an awesome defense tower in addition to providing minor heals (cure serious \ lay on hands) and res those who die (if there's no cleric, or if the cleric dies).
So my plan was to focus mainly on AC, leaving the DPS for others, drawing monsters to me with Intimidate.
Alas, about a week ago I was informed that it is all useless.
I was told that such build can never exist with the way Intimidate works now; rather than simply draw the monsters to me no matter how much damage they recieve from others, I get increased hate generation, meaning I still need to do some serious DPS to keep the aggro on me.
In order to maintain such damage, I must use a two handed \two hands weapons, something that will drop my AC dramaticaly (A whole 9, leaving my +5 tower shield aside).
So what I did is, I went to a nice guy named Fred and paid him 17k PP and that bloody dragonshard (Yes, I know I could get one feat change for free, I'm dumb.) and exchanged the feat Tower Shield for Two handed fighting.
Will this work?
Stats on creation:
16 str
10 dex
15 con
8 wis
15 char
At lvl 13 I have 20 base str, I used a +1 tome on Wis and Char.
My feats for lvl 13:
Force of Personality
Luck of Heros
Shield mastery
Toughness
Two handed fighting

With the old enhancemnets (Those build for the Defender presteige) I had about 38 AC unbuffed (with a tower shield), and fully buffed, defensive fighting and defensive stance I reached 55 AC (including the barkskin potion), even though I moved 33% of the speed (a bit faster than that with Haste or Retreat). The armor was a simple +5 full plate and the tower shield was +5 as well.

1) What should I do? Is it possible to go DPS as a paladin and actualy be good enough for the party? Or I should not give up the Intimi-tank build and retake the Tower Shield feat? (Please refer to what feats should I change aside from Force of personality, I love my saves, and why, as well as enhancements).
2) Right now I use a + 4 acid greatsword of pure good, dealing about 22+5+5 damage with it per swing, the highest damage I ever reached with this paladin was when I used an extalted smite and got a crit, something that rarely happens. How good is that for DPS?
3) If AC is REALLY that useless, how come all the high level people are still wearing armor? Why not just wear a robe with the same properties of an armor and suffer less Armor penalty?
4) If I buy the 32 points build now, can I apply it to already existing chars with the old 28 points build? (Like get the extra +4 stats the next level or something?)
5) If I TR this char, will I lose all my crafting levels? If you guys tell me this char is a piece of **** and paladins are absolutly useless, I'll just powerlevel to 20 and TR to something better, assuming I can keep my crafting levels.
6) If I TR with a char that is 28 build, will I still get the 34 build?

Thank you for your patient, I know I write too much stuff. Like now. I should stop, but I don't. See? Stupid.

[Templarion]

1) -
2) -
3) Some types of armor grant other benefits than AC. Named loot has special effects. Also, AC still works on lower level quests so having high end armor makes soloing lower level content easier.
4) No.
5) You keep your crafting levels when you TR. But remember that level 13 is still low. You need 2mil xp to achieve lvl 20 at the first life. Rerolling your toon now wouldn't be so terrible waste of time. And I recommend you to use some other class than paladin until you TR or get that 32pt build.

[tekkentroop]

Retaking feats is expensive (as you already noticed) and luck of heroes and force of personality dont do much for a pally who already gets save boosts from charisma and needs some wis item for spellcasting anyway. Powerleveling and TRing might not be a good idea unless youre exactly knowing what youre doing (if you got a lot of time and already TR experience with other chars, go ahead)

Better reroll the char now, and with better combat feats, some twink gear, and more experience it will probably be a bit faster than the first time. Dont forget improved critical (slashing) feat at lvl 9, its really crucial for any paladin.

my take on THF paladin feats:

toughness
power attack
THF
IC:Slash
ITHF
GTHF
1x free choice (maybe shield mastery for reduced damage)

Stats look fine, although you might take the two points out of dex and put them into cha. What race did you chose?

[Claymorep]

Even for a exping alt You missed so much that I don't know where o start but gratz for this tread as at least we'll have a lolbased build no more

Ok I was joking but at the end not so much

Anyway I'm embarassed aboout what You are asking as You need to change so much that it requires a greater reincarnation...

What party need? not a useless pally! To stay behind your shiled while others deal damage, cast spells or heals and all mobs ignore You is like to have a piker that gone afk at start of the quest... What have to be your role? Dps and jolly! You have to be able to face 2-3 mobs and kill them without any support and play as jolly in a lots of situations (intimibosses, raise, use some heals or wands on you so healer can concentrate on heal-suckers barbarians, high saves and high ac to first focus attention of mobs, block at doors so archers, casters and 2handed dps can use full powers without worry too much of their health, etc)


Some considerations:
Ac is worth till lvl 14 then mobs hits so high that You need some raid/item/crafting investments
Aggro managment for what you have in mind needs a Helf as he has 2 separate intimidate attempts
Aggro managment on bosses needs dps too as it is a bit different now.
2 of your feats are near useless (force of personality and luck of heroes). Even for a no dps build You absolutely need improved critical slashing. As pally You'll have so high saves that only a 1 is a failure (only in epics you'll need more and only on traps).

For your questions:
1 For dps use a falchion (better vs criticable mobs) unless You have nothing better than Holy sword spell (+5 greatsword dr bypassing devil/demon holy burst) but a falchion is better for treat range. If you use tower shieled you do little dps as going on a scimitar and sincerely I don't know if an intimi build is of some use in exping...
2 Dps is very low and it would be more if You take power attack feat (a must in my opinion). Exalted smites are where pally takes his dps in combo with Divine sacrifice. Your cha is a bit low, but never enter combat without divine favor, divine might and, as long as You reach lvl, 14 zeal. So create your swords you need then change spell and use zeal like hot dogs for an angry rottweiler...
3 At high levels ALL use robes except some real tanks! Keep an eye on red dressed guys that wander somewhere. All use robes. (Me kotc and another dos pally are the only guys on the server with a red dragon medium armor on the server, but we surely did for nice look, not for ac...).
4 If You buy 32 point You have to create a alt from zero or use a greater reincarnation. You can reach 32 point build with 1750 total favor too.
5 With tr You'll have a new character with all gear and all crafting levels You had before, but You'll add 5% healing amplification from pally past life and You'll be 34 point build. There is nothing better than a pally Anyway pally is near the harder way of life of the game: It's a stress guy that need continue clicking on something, so stat starved that You need a great investment in gear to be competitive, and a lot more...
9 on 10 pally select another way... At your decision

[Ralmeth]

It is possible to have a useful Paladin tank. This is what I run as my main, but it just doesn't work well the way you were thinking. In particular, as others have pointed out to you you don't want to build for all defense and no offense, but instead you want a mix of both offense and defense.

DPS vs Tank Mode
Every good Pally tank should have both a DPS and a tank mode. Your DPS mode can be as simple as using the highest DPS falchion you can get with power attack turned on. Sure, your AC is lower but DPS mode is all about having the highest DPS. There are many times in DDO where you just want to kill things fast and having an uber AC doesn't matter so much. Your tank mode is your S&B mode with as high of an AC as you can get along with being able to dish out decent DPS so that you can hate tank.

Hate Tanking
The days of tanking groups of mobs with intimidate are more or less over. Sure you can grab aggro of some monsters with an intimidate but with casters throwing area of effect spells left and right, the 15 second cooldown on intimidate, etc. it's very difficult for this to work like you're thinking unless your party works with you to make it work (i.e no AOE spells, letting you run ahead to grab aggro, etc), but do not expect a PUG to ever do this. Instead, Paladin DoS tanks excel at hate tanking one big, nasty monster at any one time.

Feats
Aside from Toughness, and possibly shield mastery, you need to swap out all of your feats. #1, you need to have combat expertise if you're going to be a DoS tank. You didn't list your intelligence, but this one feat gives you 5 AC when called upon. That's a huge boost! #2, you need to have power attack for your DPS mode. Sometimes I even mix the two modes by going S&B with power attack on. #3, improved critical. This is just an awesome feat to pass up. Then there's toughness which you already have. I would consider these four a must have no matter what.

lvl 1 - Toughness
lvl 3 - Power Attack
lvl 6 - Combat Expertise
lvl 9 - Improved Critical Slashing

After this, you have 3 more feats to choose from and IMHO there are two good options to go with on a newer Pally tank, either focusing more on your DPS mode or more on your S&B mode (which I prefer).

Option #1 - DPS Mode Focus
In this option you focus more on your DPS mode with the full THF chain
lvl 12 - THF
lvl 15 - ITHF
lvl 18 - GTHF

Option #2 - S&B Focus
In this option, you want to maximize your S&B tanking mode
lvl 12 - Extend
lvl 15 - Shield Mastery or Improved Shield Bash
lvl 18 - Dodge if you have the dex, otherwise take the other shield feat or khopesh

Hope this helps.

[Claymorep]

It is possible to have a useful Paladin tank. This is what I run as my main, but it just doesn't work well the way you were thinking. In particular, as others have pointed out to you you don't want to build for all defense and no offense, but instead you want a mix of both offense and defense.

DPS vs Tank Mode
Every good Pally tank should have both a DPS and a tank mode. Your DPS mode can be as simple as using the highest DPS falchion you can get with power attack turned on. Sure, your AC is lower but DPS mode is all about having the highest DPS. There are many times in DDO where you just want to kill things fast and having an uber AC doesn't matter so much. Your tank mode is your S&B mode with as high of an AC as you can get along with being able to dish out decent DPS so that you can hate tank.

Hate Tanking
The days of tanking groups of mobs with intimidate are more or less over. Sure you can grab aggro of some monsters with an intimidate but with casters throwing area of effect spells left and right, the 15 second cooldown on intimidate, etc. it's very difficult for this to work like you're thinking unless your party works with you to make it work (i.e no AOE spells, letting you run ahead to grab aggro, etc), but do not expect a PUG to ever do this. Instead, Paladin DoS tanks excel at hate tanking one big, nasty monster at any one time.

Feats
Aside from Toughness, and possibly shield mastery, you need to swap out all of your feats. #1, you need to have combat expertise if you're going to be a DoS tank. You didn't list your intelligence, but this one feat gives you 5 AC when called upon. That's a huge boost! #2, you need to have power attack for your DPS mode. Sometimes I even mix the two modes by going S&B with power attack on. #3, improved critical. This is just an awesome feat to pass up. Then there's toughness which you already have. I would consider these four a must have no matter what.

lvl 1 - Toughness
lvl 3 - Power Attack
lvl 6 - Combat Expertise
lvl 9 - Improved Critical Slashing

After this, you have 3 more feats to choose from and IMHO there are two good options to go with on a newer Pally tank, either focusing more on your DPS mode or more on your S&B mode (which I prefer).

Option #1 - DPS Mode Focus
In this option you focus more on your DPS mode with the full THF chain
lvl 12 - THF
lvl 15 - ITHF
lvl 18 - GTHF

Option #2 - S&B Focus
In this option, you want to maximize your S&B tanking mode
lvl 12 - Extend
lvl 15 - Shield Mastery or Improved Shield Bash
lvl 18 - Dodge if you have the dex, otherwise take the other shield feat or khopesh

Hope this helps.

This. Very good suggestions.
At least till epics, but this is not what we are discussing.

[elraido]

I approve of what Ralmeth says.

Otherwise I would be at a loss of words.

[Corwinsky]

Definitely don't choose the TWF feats because Paladins don't have enough feats available to be able to take the whole TWF line with the any other feats that are necessary to them.

Improved critical might not be necessary.
With the new crafting system you might be able to find or buy on AH some usefull keen/impact weapons so that you always use one that has this attribute.
At higher level your GS min2 weapons will have keen, same for the epic antique axe.
it really depends on how much grinding you're planning to do to compensate the lack of this feat with the appropriate weapons.
If so you could consider taking an extra toughness instead.

[unbongwah]

4) If I buy the 32 points build now, can I apply it to already existing chars with the old 28 points build? (Like get the extra +4 stats the next level or something?)

Not for free, no; you can Greater Reincarnate (GR) a 28-pt build into a 32-pt one, but it ain't cheap.

6) If I TR with a char that is 28 build, will I still get the 34 build?

Yes.

The other thing to note about tanks in DDO is they're pretty gear-intensive, so I'd be very wary of trying to make a 28-pt pally tank if you don't already have the resources to support it. My "beginner's tank" builds always focus on DPS first, hate & Intim second, then finally AC (with a side of shield feats if I can afford them).

[Ungood]

Paladins are a Very versatile Build to play with.

• Weapons:

To start with, you never need Two Handed Fighting to do good to decent damage with a two handed weapon on a single target: IE: Boss Mobs, Portals in Shroud, and pretty much every other encounter you will ever get into, not taking the Two Handed Fighting Feat will not hurt you. In this situation you will be using your Holy Sword anyway, so, a great sword or axe is the way to go (Shield it not your fiend in a Boss Mob Fight, unless you are main tank)

As such, if you decided to mostly Sword/Shield and then went 2HF for Raids/Groups, it would make minimal to near no difference in your performance in most raids.

So, if you do not feel like taking Two Handed Fighting, don't.

Two Weapon Fighting, is really not an option for a 28 Point Non-Drow build, I would suggest against it at all costs. At 32 Point, you can start playing with that.

Now, this is where I might get some flak, but, as it stands, if you are a Dwarf, you will want to take the Two handed Fighting, Since Dwarf Axes will deal Glancing Blow damage when used in one hand, and THF will increase your glancing blows, if you use a shield and a dwarf axe, with intimidate, you will be able to hit a wider range of mobs in a single swing, allow you to hold and even gain agro very quickly.

Also, note, if you are a human, consider Bastard Sword over Kopesh, for the same reason, the glancing blow range. (You could also dual wield the bastard swords when attacking portals, even if you do not take the TWF feat it won't make a difference)

But those are just considerations when it comes to weapons and what you can do.

Remember as a paladin, most of your damage will come from Smites, Sacrifices, and Capstone, not so much solely from the Str of your sword arm (Not that you can neglect that either)

• Shield:

I would suggest you stay with the Tower Shield Feat and look into a greater/superior devotion or guard type tower shield.

• Feats:

Toughness
Improved Critical: Slash
Mental Toughness or Extend

I do not suggest Power Attack as the tower shield gives you -2 to hit, and the power attack gives you -5 and that means you will miss a lot more then you might want to. But take it if you want to. You can always play with that as the time moves on.

Since you are going to tank your dex, you might want to take Brutal Throw,

I would not take Force of Personality, Or Luck of Hero's is optional, as paladins already get near to the best saves in the game if they bring up their CHA score.

• Stats:

Your stat split is not bad, I would suggest:

16 Str
8 Dex (As you will max the Dex bonus on your armor very quickly with a + Dex item, given FP is +1 Dex)
15 Con
8 Wisdom (is fine, a +6 item and +2 Tome and your set)
16 Cha. (Now since paladins get saves and ac boons from their CHA score you do not want to let this slide, using the 2 build points from the Dex to the Cha, is better served for a THF or S&S Paladin)

Now, most of the time you want to keep taking the lay hands upgrades (to get a max of 4 of them) and Sovereign Host Faith Based belief line, for Unyielding Sovereignty.

• 32 Point Build:

As others have said: If/When you unlock/Buy the 32 Point Build, You can Greater Reincarnate (with a Greater heart of Wood) from a 28 to a 32 Point build, or you can level up to 20th and True Reincarnate into a 34 point Build (Yes, even if you start at 28, you will TR into a 34 point build)

And paladins can be a force to be reckoned with, just a matter of play style and build.

I am not sure if I missed anything, but, I hope I have given you some food for thought.

Happy Gaming.

[Ralmeth]

Improved critical might not be necessary.
With the new crafting system you might be able to find or buy on AH some usefull keen/impact weapons so that you always use one that has this attribute.
At higher level your GS min2 weapons will have keen, same for the epic antique axe.
it really depends on how much grinding you're planning to do to compensate the lack of this feat with the appropriate weapons.
If so you could consider taking an extra toughness instead.

This advice is wrong...Op, please ignore. Improved critical is a must have feat. You will have so many weapons that don't have keen or impact on them. Also Paladins get the holy sword spell so they don't need to build a Min2 weapon. Or you could craft a boss beater. There is no other feat worth dropping improved critical for.

[SilkofDrasnia]

just would like to say if you want to play a pally n have a good one u need atleast 32 point build even moreso if u want to be a tank pally

i suggest u look over junts build threads etc and also Anthios888

making a tank pally as a first build will be really hard as it very very dependant on gear

[Claymorep]

This advice is wrong...Op, please ignore. Improved critical is a must have feat. You will have so many weapons that don't have keen or impact on them. Also Paladins get the holy sword spell so they don't need to build a Min2 weapon. Or you could craft a boss beater. There is no other feat worth dropping improved critical for.

+1 rep

I'm with Ralmeth at 100%. I want only to add that a keen weapon is anyway a lower dps weapon as its prefix can be filled with something better like holy burst.

The only case I'm studiing in which I will not take improved critical is for a tank pally that will use the new intended to be changed Epic Chimera fang (keen inside) if those Genasi suggestions will see the light but anyway not sure cause I'll be relegated to a single possible weapon for dps...

[Ralmeth]

I do not suggest Power Attack as the tower shield gives you -2 to hit, and the power attack gives you -5 and that means you will miss a lot more then you might want to. But take it if you want to. You can always play with that as the time moves on.

This advice is also bad. As I mentioned previously, any good tank will have a DPS mode and power attack is critical to this DPS mode. With power attack turned on and a THF weapon even without the THF feats will grant you an extra +10 to damage on every swing. Why would you not want an extra 10 damage in a situation where you want to do as much damage as possible?

[Ungood]

This advice is also bad. As I mentioned previously, any good tank will have a DPS mode and power attack is critical to this DPS mode. With power attack turned on and a THF weapon even without the THF feats will grant you an extra +10 to damage on every swing. Why would you not want an extra 10 damage in a situation where you want to do as much damage as possible?

As I said, play with it. I don't like the miss ratio of using it when I am using a tower shield. with the -2 and -5, giving a -7 to hit makes for a lot of misses. never seemed worth it in game terms.

If you want to say it a great, then so be it. But it would be around the last feat I would take like the one at 18th level, when you finally submit to doing just raids.

[Mithran]

Unfortunately, OP, you've picked the most difficult Class to balance/play. Most Classes are min/max, ideally, with some rare and multiclass exceptions. Where Fighters are Skills-starved, Barbarians are Feat-starved and Paladins are Feat-starved, Skills-starved and Stat-point-starved.

To further complicate matters, Turbine just nerfed Intimidate and GTWF in favor of Barbarians and Fighters (or combinations of the two). I think they allowed Paladins a full two months of ruling the Intimidate field before taking it away (in retrospect, it was inevitable; DDO hates Paladins, by all appearances). This double-strike to my old main Nellas has turned me away from Paladins indefinitely. It was a huge waste of time and platinum for me.

Add to this the new player's desire to actually play Paladins, and you end up with a recipe for disaster.

OP, I would recommend buying a Lesser Heart of Wood from the DDO Store and following Ralmeth's advice, which is sound.

[Provenance]

edited: to correct some grammar mistakes

I'll tell you my opinion about Intimidate, races, dex-based and AC. I AM AWARE I WILL RECEIVE CRITIQUES CUZ MOST PLAYERS LOVE TO ROLL HORCS AND WF, but sadly this is true.

• First topic, races: (my favorite)
Humans are still a solid choice, specially for FVS evoker and sorc (even thou WF get easier and cheaper healing, I consider the robots being a better choice), don't roll haflings (they do fine early/mid-game, but endgame dex is mostly useless even thou they have the guile), elves are probally the most underpowered race in the whole game, half-elves are fine but other races will usually do better, dwarves are good, but WF usually works better, drow (most times a poor fit). To be honest, I would never had imagine that I'd see more bards being horcs with that huge sword or axe than gnomes or races you are used from PnP. Watch TRs, I lost my count how many times I've seen a TR HOrc and WF, but what about other races?

• AC
Even if you go halfling dex/wis based pally/monk, on epics your ac will not be enough unless you have spent a big part of your life farming items and buying several packs, the gear is not nearly easy to grab. On epics toons with higher HP and damage are the ones who shine. Don't believe me? You have no idea of how many people start with dex-based toon and then TR to str-based.

• Intimidate
In DDO a big part of mobs and red nameds are immune to that, and even if they aren't, the endgame DC has to be way too high.

• Classes
Paladins are fun 'cause they have a nice survivability, HP and self-healing, can contribute to the party with some scrolls (high UMD) and quite decent damage output, good saves too, however in epics/endgame that WF barb or that HOrc fighter will shine more than your human paladin 'cause their damage is higher (haste boost/rage, etc).

Last advice: If you are a powergamer, go WF or HOrc, they are the best choices for melee.

And there will be people saying: "But my dwarf kensai is godlike and beats many HOrcs!" or "My half-elf sorcerer with pally dillettante has demigod saves and higher DCs than WFs!" - You still know these are the most overpowered races. They also say: "But DDO isn't all about Shroud, ToD, VoD, Hound and epics... but deep in your heart I know you want to build a toon that can do well from lv 1 to 20 and being capable of keeping up with other builds in epics. I'm SURE you are not building your toon to farm Delera's or lv in the Orchard.

WF again...
Just reminding this is still DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, not Stars Wars.

[Balkas]

Paladins are a Very versatile Build to play with.

• Weapons:

To start with, you never need Two Handed Fighting to do good to decent damage with a two handed weapon on a single target: IE: Boss Mobs, Portals in Shroud, and pretty much every other encounter you will ever get into, not taking the Two Handed Fighting Feat will not hurt you.

You get glancing blows on a single target, also.

• Shield:

I would suggest you stay with the Tower Shield Feat and look into a greater/superior devotion or guard type tower shield.

If Crystal Cove ever comes around again, I'd suggest ditching Tower Shield and getting yourself a Tier 3 Swashbuckler.

• Feats:

Toughness
Improved Critical: Slash
Mental Toughness or Extend

I do not suggest Power Attack as the tower shield gives you -2 to hit, and the power attack gives you -5 and that means you will miss a lot more then you might want to. But take it if you want to. You can always play with that as the time moves on.

Since you are going to tank your dex, you might want to take Brutal Throw,

I would not take Force of Personality, Or Luck of Hero's is optional, as paladins already get near to the best saves in the game if they bring up their CHA score.

You are suggesting Brutal Throw over Power Attack? That's pretty whacky. If you melee, you want Power Attack. Brutal Throw is borderline useless.

I do agree that Force of Personality on a Paladin is overkill, especially considering that by end game most things that require a Will Save have some sort of buff to prevent them.

[Ungood]

You are suggesting Brutal Throw over Power Attack? That's pretty whacky.

I never suggested one over the other. Any implication on that is purely a fantastical fabrication on your part.

If you melee, you want Power Attack.

Totally depends.

If you had read the OP, they mention they want to Sword&Shield fight, and given Power Attack has a chance to increase your miss ratio by up to 25%.

Now for a Capstone KotC Paladin that is anywhere between 6 - 36 (6d6) Damage per swing by special abilities.

In a Sword&Shield fighting style, the numbers work against the Paladin to use Power Attack with a Tower Shield, unless the content is soo far below them that they can easily afford a -7 to hit and still hit on a 2 or better.

In that regard, the player would have to make the call, as if it is worth it or not, depending on their build and gear and the content they are running if they can afford that -5 To Hit.

Because on a single handed weapon (I used Bastard sword&Dwarf Axe, for the numbers, I did not check Khopesh, as the OP said they want to use 2H weapons for Grouping/Raiding, and Dwarf Axe and Bastard Sword gain glancing damage from THF line, while the Khopesh does not), if they so much as take a 20% increase in misses, the loss of the damage of Capstone and KotC will outshine any gain that Power Attack would have provided. Making it a very situational feat, (As I said, It would be a feat I might take at 18th when I succumbed to knowing I was going to be mostly raiding, and thus using 2H weapons) Because while using a 2H weapon, the +10 Damage from Power Attack easily Compensates a 25% miss increase.

Just saying.

[Balkas]

I never suggested one over the other. Any implication on that is purely a fantastical fabrication on your part.

You said you didn't suggest taking Power Attack, and then you suggested that he might want to take Brutal Throw.

If you had read the OP

as the OP said they want to use 2H weapons for Grouping/Raiding

That's reason enough to take Power Attack right there.