Sorcerers, what are your spells list?

[xtchizobr]

That is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that.
First, there is no slot competition because one is level 6 and one is level 5, and there are no other electric spells after level 6. The cost is only a difference of 5 SP, and since Ball Lightning is a lower level spell, that will cost more to heighten than Chain Lightning.
Ball Lightning is limited to the area it hits, and is basically an electric version of Fireball, so I cant see how these two spells even compare. Chain Lightning has a wider range, and will even hit enemies out of the usual area of effect.
Ball Lightning caps at level 15; Chain Lightning caps at level 20.
The only reason to think Chain Lightning is not as good if if you want to not hit as many things at once, and do 5 spells levels less damage.

Disintegrate, Reconstruct, Necrotic Ray, Mass Suggestion and Greater Heroism are all very important spells. GH and Disintegrate are absolutely not negotiable. so the level 6 slot is actually very competitive indeed.

your level 5 slots (of which you have more!) would be a choice between Eladar's Surge, Mind Fog, Hold Monster, Protection from Elements, and maybe Symbol of Pain or Dismissal. and Ball Lightning, of course. of these, only Protection from Elements is a "must have", so you're fairly free to pick and choose what you want. in essence, your level 5 slots are "cheaper" than your level 6 slots -- both because you have more of them and because there are fewer important spells competing for them.

also, Heighten is actually cheaper to use than a higher level spell -- that's why the feat with its enhancements exists in the first place. Heighten is an unmitigated "good thing".

now as for the particular behavior of Chain Lightning in DDO, the description is actually quite vague. in PnP, the primary target takes full damage, while secondary and tertiary targets etc. take reduced damage (this spell is the originator of the unique concept of "chain" behavior where damage is progressively less for each subsequent target). so while the first target would take 20D6, the next only saves against 10D6 and the third 5D6 and so on, and the spell had a limit on the number of targets it could affect, while "ball" spells hit anything in the area. so... in DDO, the description does say that the primary target is subject to (1d3+3) for every caster level, it only says that subsequent targets are subject to a "similar bolt". which is ominous indeed.

personally, i have found that DDO's Chain Lightning is finicky in its targetting behavior, and unimpressive damage-wise. especially when compared to various Acid spells which have much better damage:SP ratios (not to mention the Dairy Queen being weak to Acid, as well as many other powerful creatures with elemental resistances...). when calculating the damage:SP ratio for Chain Lightning, you should remember that you are only gaining those last five dice once you're past level 15, and Chain Lightning costs the same at whatever level you are... and it costs more than Ball Lightning no matter what as well.

if you really want to be conservative with your spell slots, i would recommend that you take Lightning Bolt and Eladar's and leave it at that! Bolt's path is wide enough to be functionally similar to Ball but it's cheaper still and can double-hit, and Eladar's has superior single target damage than any other electric spell anyway.

nukes are like ___________s: all you need is one good one to get the job done.

[Such755]

I would like you guys to tell me what you think: Air savant drow, secondary: water (By secondary I mean that I'm taking all the dmg\crit chance\crit damage enhacements). Currently lvl 9

Lvl I: Charm PErson
Magic Missle
Niac's Cold Rag
Jump

Lvl II: Electric Loop
Snowball Swarm
Gust Of Wind
Resist Energy

Lvl III: Lightning Bolt
Frost Lance
Haste
Hold Person

Lvl IV: Ice Storm
Summon Monster IV
Repair Critical Damage
Dimension Door

Lvl V: Niac's Biting Cold
Cone Of Cold
Eladar's Electric Surge
Ball lightning

Lvl VI: Chain Lightning
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Undead to Death

Lvl VII: Mass Protection From Elements
Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Delayed Blast Fireball

Lvl VIII: Polar Ray
Greater Shout
Incendiary Cloud

Lvl IX : Summon Monster IX
Meteor Swarm
Wail of the Banshee

[Diyon]

Air savant.

And I will definitely vouch for chain lightning. It and ball lightning are good to have (and both occasionally don't hit stuff I expect them to but. When you want a bunch of stuff to die quickly, I just turn and spam out chain lightning/ball lightning/Electric loop SLA/Lightning bolt SLA until stuff stops moving. It generally doesn't take long.


1st: Nightshield, Jump, Magic Missile, Grease
2nd: Blur, Knock, Resist, Electric Loop
3rd: Haste, Rage, Displacement, Lightning Bolt
4th: Dimension Door, Wall of Fire, Ice Storm, Fire shield
5th: Ball lightning, Cyclonic Blast, Eladar's, Niac's
6th: Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, Reconstruct
7th: Finger of Death, Prismatic Spray, Protection (mass)
8th: Otto's, Power word Stun, Summon monster VIII
9th: Wail, Energy Drain, Power word kill

Edit: I could probably replace Electric loop and lightning bolt now that I pretty much exclusively cast them via SLA.

[xtchizobr]

Lvl I: Charm PErson
Magic Missle
Niac's Cold Rag
Jump

you need nightshield. you need it. it makes you immune to Force Missiles as well as Magic Missile, and there are quite a few enemies who can one or two-shot you with those at level 9. well worth the slot. drop Magic Missile. if you aren't casting it from SLA, it's not worth the SP and it isn't worth the slot on a sorc anyway. Charm Person isn't nearly as useful as, say, Hypnosis. spammable and gives -3 Will as well? yes please. if you want to charm things, Suggestion is way more versatile and reliable.

Lvl II: Electric Loop
Snowball Swarm
Gust Of Wind
Resist Energy

my gods, WHERE IS YOUR WEB?! for gods' sake, drop those trash nukes and get Web, it's just not up for discussion. similarly, you need Blur. you just do. drop both Loop and Swarm for those two spells. do it. do it right now.

Lvl III: Lightning Bolt
Frost Lance
Haste
Hold Person

drop Hold Person for Suggestion. it works on "persons" too, and instead of just holding them for a few seconds, they will work for you for a set duration (unlike Hold, they don't get a new Will save every round). the targets that Hold is good against are not generally "persons" (giants!) anyway.

Lvl IV: Ice Storm
Summon Monster IV
Repair Critical Damage
Dimension Door

Ice Storm is a bad spell. it doesn't scale well. drop it immediately and pick up Fire Wall. seriously, i can't believe you didn't take Fire Wall. Summon Monster is a truly horrible waste of a spell slot. the monsters summoned are pathetic, worthless trash. drop it for Ennervation -- a no-save 1d4 negative levels?! how can you pass that up?! drop repair. you're a drow. not a WF. there's more important things on this level for you to take, like, Crushing Despair, Stoneskin or Acid Rain. Burning Blood and Fear are also good spells, but if you really must have DDoor, then go ahead and keep it (there are scrolls for those few times that you actually can make use of DD).

Lvl V: Niac's Biting Cold
Cone Of Cold
Eladar's Electric Surge
Ball lightning

you're way too nuke-happy, even for a Sorc. these all do basically the same thing as other spells. you do realize that your spells don't wear out? you don't need Biting Cold and you don't need both Chain Lightning below and Ball Lightning at this level. Hold Monster, Mind Fog, Cloudkill and Symbol of Pain would each add a lot of utility to your build, and it's pretty shameful that you'd give up everything for yet-another-handful-of-dice nuke.

Lvl VI: Chain Lightning
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Undead to Death

Ball Lightning is pretty much the better version of Chain Lightning. you just don't need both. drop Chain Lightning, level 6 has way better spells. Greater Heroism is another one of those spells that would get you a perm-ban from me if i found out you didn't have it. Undeath to Death is a crappy spell which does nothing that Fire Wall can't except for waste SP and proc Will saves. Disintegrate is so much better, and works on so many more things. for such a nuke-happy sorc, it defies belief that you wouldn't have the king of nukes. sucks that you have such limited spell slots because Flesh to Stone and Acid Fog are both great spells. if you have Cone of Cold, then drop Freezing Sphere.

the reason you shouldn't get Reconstruct is that you're playing a Drow. if there's WF in your group and they need the arcanist to help heal them, they should buy you a stack of scrolls. infinitely better solution considering your limited spell slots.

Lvl VII: Mass Protection From Elements
Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Delayed Blast Fireball

Delayed Blast Fireball on an Air/water Savant... are you trolling? especially when Fire Wall would do more damage for less SP and you didn't even take it? for that slot, you need to take Finger of Death. it just isn't even optional.

Lvl VIII: Polar Ray
Greater Shout
Incendiary Cloud

drop Greater Shout for Symbol of Death, i say.

Lvl IX : Summon Monster IX
Meteor Swarm
Wail of the Banshee

Energy Drain and Mass Hold Monster. pick one and then replace Summon Monster 9 with it. right now. like. log into the game right now and do it immediately. i'm embarrassed for you.

[azrael4h]

Level 13 Air Savant

1 - Nightshield, Jump, Magic Missile, Grease
2 - Blur, Web, Knock, Resist Energy
3 - Haste, Rage, Displacement, Lightning Bolt
4 - Firewall, Icestorm, Dimension Door, Fireshield
5 - Cloudkill, Electric Surge, Biting Cold
6 - Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Greater Heroism

1 - I intend to swap MM out eventaally, but my higher level spells get priority there. Grease is for zerging party members.

3 - Lightning Bolt will be swapped for Frost Lance
4 - Firewall will be swapped around 15, but there's so much good stuff at 4 that I don't really know what to take.
5 - I'm too tired to remember the spell I was putting in the last spot. Ball Lightning I suppose, since I AM a Air Savant.
6 - I'm inexperienced as an Arcane, so I'm experiementing with spells. I like Disentigrate, but right now I'm trying Oti's Sphere.

[broolthebeast]

you need nightshield. you need it. it makes you immune to Force Missiles as well as Magic Missile, and there are quite a few enemies who can one or two-shot you with those at level 9. well worth the slot. drop Magic Missile. if you aren't casting it from SLA, it's not worth the SP and it isn't worth the slot on a sorc anyway. Charm Person isn't nearly as useful as, say, Hypnosis. spammable and gives -3 Will as well? yes please. if you want to charm things, Suggestion is way more versatile and reliable.

I will always keep magic missle slotted, If you as a sorc cant handle 4 sp per cast (more if you leave max/emp on like me). Charm person is dominant in the lowbie game, I did switch it out at around 9/10ish tho.

my gods, WHERE IS YOUR WEB?! for gods' sake, drop those trash nukes and get Web, it's just not up for discussion. similarly, you need Blur. you just do. drop both Loop and Swarm for those two spells. do it. do it right now.

Once you get displace, their is no reason to keep blur on a sorc. Non air savants should keep loop, while air savants can drop it at 12 because their free SLA is cheaper.

drop Hold Person for Suggestion. it works on "persons" too, and instead of just holding them for a few seconds, they will work for you for a set duration (unlike Hold, they don't get a new Will save every round). the targets that Hold is good against are not generally "persons" (giants!) anyway.

Personally, I dont rock with either hold or suggestion. Moot point in my book.

Ice Storm is a bad spell. it doesn't scale well. drop it immediately and pick up Fire Wall. seriously, i can't believe you didn't take Fire Wall. Summon Monster is a truly horrible waste of a spell slot. the monsters summoned are pathetic, worthless trash. drop it for Ennervation -- a no-save 1d4 negative levels?! how can you pass that up?! drop repair. you're a drow. not a WF. there's more important things on this level for you to take, like, Crushing Despair, Stoneskin or Acid Rain. Burning Blood and Fear are also good spells, but if you really must have DDoor, then go ahead and keep it (there are scrolls for those few times that you actually can make use of DD).

Ice storm is a very handy spell to have, and I used to do my solo scroll farming in the deserts using strictly ice storm. Personally, Firewall is meh since extend got nerfed. I keep it at cap for 1 single reason and thats kiting TOD. Otherwise, I never cast it. No real need for enervation at cap, Energy drain does more level damage as well as symbol of death for all your enervating needs. Crushing despair - meh, stoneskin - triple meh. (ss can be scrolled and i would suggest that or a shroud clicky if you are an air savant), acid rain - meh, burning blood - meh, fear - meh. Personally none of them are worth a spot in my spell book. DD is a staple, you cant buy scrolls of DD anymore only loot them out of a chest. No reason to not have DD at end game.

you're way too nuke-happy, even for a Sorc. these all do basically the same thing as other spells. you do realize that your spells don't wear out? you don't need Biting Cold and you don't need both Chain Lightning below and Ball Lightning at this level. Hold Monster, Mind Fog, Cloudkill and Symbol of Pain would each add a lot of utility to your build, and it's pretty shameful that you'd give up everything for yet-another-handful-of-dice nuke.

As a veteran capped air savant ball lightning and chain lightning are must haves in your spell book. Simple too much damage can be dished out to a large crowd with just 2 casts. If your an air savant without those 2 spells, you might as well re-roll in my honest opinion. Between the two of them things die way to fast to even use anything else. Hold monster - meh mass hold is much much better. Mind fog - eh personal choice nothing bad to say about it. CK I used to always carry, have dropped it since savants were released. Symbol of pain is a meh as well, I wouldnt ever put it in my book.

Ball Lightning is pretty much the better version of Chain Lightning. you just don't need both. drop Chain Lightning, level 6 has way better spells. Greater Heroism is another one of those spells that would get you a perm-ban from me if i found out you didn't have it. Undeath to Death is a crappy spell which does nothing that Fire Wall can't except for waste SP and proc Will saves. Disintegrate is so much better, and works on so many more things. for such a nuke-happy sorc, it defies belief that you wouldn't have the king of nukes. sucks that you have such limited spell slots because Flesh to Stone and Acid Fog are both great spells. if you have Cone of Cold, then drop Freezing Sphere.

I can't stress this enough! if you're an air savant and dont have both ball and chain then you are doing yourself and your fellow groups a disservice. G hero can be scrolled, no serious need to take it as a spell when you can slot something more usefull. Rarely do you need g hero for longer than 10 mins, and most of the players I run with have gh clickies. Disintigrate is usefull around lvl 12-14, but can be dropped after that. (honestly, its not the king of nukes for an air savant) FtS and Acid fog are both meh on a air savant since you take penalties to acid based spells as well as the changes to helpless mobs.

the reason you shouldn't get Reconstruct is that you're playing a Drow. if there's WF in your group and they need the arcanist to help heal them, they should buy you a stack of scrolls. infinitely better solution considering your limited spell slots.

Reconstruct is just to handy to have. No matter what race you are. Id rather recon of mana then waste a stack of scrolls for 1 raid. Ill use them when im desperate, but recon definitely has its place in a fleshy spell book. Some times just going off scrolls isnt going to cut it.


Thats my thoughts on things. I've been around since launch, I've seen the changes to spells come and go. Very few spells meet the "Must have in spell book" criteria outside the spells that are in your savant school. Regardless of what anyone might say, I would suggest you try chain lightning for yourself before you listen to anyone else tell you its not a good spell. I find it to be a staple in the air savant arsenal. Being able to 1 shot a group of orthons in sins is nothing to sneeze about. Chain lightning can do just that.

[broolthebeast]

btw my capped spell book looks like this.

lvl 1 - night shield, magic missle, detect secret doors, jump
lvl 2 - resist, web, knock, ooze puppet (i dont like playing around with living spells)
lvl 3 - magic circle against evil, rage, displace, haste
lvl 4 - dd, fire shield, ice storm, fire wall
lvl 5 - break enchantment, teleport, ball lightning, eladars
lvl 6 - g. hero, recon, chain lightning
lvl 7 - mass prot, mass invis, fod
lvl 8 - ottos irresistable, polar ray, symbol of death
lvl 9 - energy drain, mass hold, wail

[azrael4h]

Once you get displace, their is no reason to keep blur on a sorc. Non air savants should keep loop, while air savants can drop it at 12 because their free SLA is cheaper.

Blur is for the melees. As a player of divines, I like to see damage mitigation coming from everyone. Blur helps. There's few level 2 spells that are as good a choice at that level.

If your an air savant without those 2 spells, you might as well re-roll in my honest opinion.

If you need to reroll to change out two spells, then you might want to rethink being a spell-slinger of any form. Or playing anything more difficult than Farmville.

Reconstruct is just to handy to have. No matter what race you are. Id rather recon of mana then waste a stack of scrolls for 1 raid. Ill use them when im desperate, but recon definitely has its place in a fleshy spell book. Some times just going off scrolls isnt going to cut it.

Sorry, but no. WF can carry healing amp and healer's friend, or carry scrolls. You only get three level 6 slots, and plenty of solid choices for those spells. There is no reason for a Sorcerer to devote a scarce spell slot in a competitive spell level to go outside the realm of your normal responsibilities. If a WF cannot be healed at all by divines (they took improved fortification), then they don't deserved to be healed. A WF should carry Recon, a fleshy has no reason to do so, and in the majority of cases will only be gimping themselves because they don't run with WF.

[broolthebeast]

Blur is for the melees. As a player of divines, I like to see damage mitigation coming from everyone. Blur helps. There's few level 2 spells that are as good a choice at that level.



If you need to reroll to change out two spells, then you might want to rethink being a spell-slinger of any form. Or playing anything more difficult than Farmville.




Sorry, but no. WF can carry healing amp and healer's friend, or carry scrolls. You only get three level 6 slots, and plenty of solid choices for those spells. There is no reason for a Sorcerer to devote a scarce spell slot in a competitive spell level to go outside the realm of your normal responsibilities. If a WF cannot be healed at all by divines (they took improved fortification), then they don't deserved to be healed. A WF should carry Recon, a fleshy has no reason to do so, and in the majority of cases will only be gimping themselves because they don't run with WF.

In the parties I run in, blurs rarely asked for or needed. In epic runs the bard hands out the blurs and g. hero's anyways.

I didnt say to re-roll to change the spells out. I said if your an air savant without your 2 highest dps spells in your spell book you need to reroll (eladars excluded) As for reconstruct, again I disagree, its too valuable a spell in end game raids (ie: tod/vod). That and recon'ing a tank in vod/tod is not outside your realm of responsibility. I rarely run with WF, recon stays in my spell book perm. Simply carrying scrolls doesn't always cut it for recon'ing a main tank. I dont see any other "must" haves at lvl 6 outside of chain lightning.

It's all personal preference, and personal play style. You can run without it, I prefer to run with it. Kinda like I think disintegrate is **** for an air savant at cap, but you think its the king of nukes. Again g hero can be scrolled, no need to waste a spot on it if you need something else at lvl 6. In my honest opinion chain and recon are just to solid to pass up, reguardless of what race you are. Non air savants can of course drop chain.

[azrael4h]

In the parties I run in, blurs rarely asked for or needed. In epic runs the bard hands out the blurs and g. hero's anyways.

I didnt say to re-roll to change the spells out. I said if your an air savant without your 2 highest dps spells in your spell book you need to reroll (eladars excluded) As for reconstruct, again I disagree, its too valuable a spell in end game raids (ie: tod/vod). That and recon'ing a tank in vod/tod is not outside your realm of responsibility. I rarely run with WF, recon stays in my spell book perm. Simply carrying scrolls doesn't always cut it for recon'ing a main tank. I dont see any other "must" haves at lvl 6 outside of chain lightning.

It's all personal preference, and personal play style. You can run without it, I prefer to run with it. Kinda like I think disintegrate is **** for an air savant at cap, but you think its the king of nukes. Again g hero can be scrolled, no need to waste a spot on it if you need something else at lvl 6. In my honest opinion chain and recon are just to solid to pass up, reguardless of what race you are. Non air savants can of course drop chain.

I've healed tanks in VoD and ToD. Recon is not needed, even with WF, unless they suck. It makes things easier, but to be frank, a good player who knows what they're doing will make those raids easier than just sticking a WF out there solely because they can be reconned. The smoothest runs I've had were with fleshy tanks. There, it's heal spell and scroll. One VoD run on my FvS, I never even cast a heal at the tank, they had such a healing amp and such a durable build that scrolls handled it without issue. I've gotten to the point that I avoid lfms for those raids that are looking specifically for a wf to tank, and those runs tend to be frustrating at best.

I also never said anything was the "king of nuking", I'm not even carrying disintegrate, and only mentioned that I like it. I also never mentioned Chain Lightning, in any capacity. If you can't read a simple forum post, you probably need to stick to Farmville.

I run with pugs or with a guild that is small and may or may not have a Bard in any given group. I'm not keeping them displaced constantly, so Blur lets me mitigate damage over a long term. Pugs are pugs. Even if there is a Bard, I'd rather coordinate the buffing duties, so to spread the sp costs around; after all, they can heal through sp, I can only scroll heal. At the very least, I'd rather hit the blurs and let them hit the FoM instead. And lets face it, if you need ooze puppet to run through the sub, you've got more problems than just loading your list with spells you never use.

I so rarely run with Warforged of any kind that taking recon is a waste; and in my honest opinion a Sorcerer who constantly wastes a slot on a spell he never ever uses needs to reroll. Half the time I'm soloing anyway, so what am I going to do with Recon? Nothing. In my guild I have the only Warforged, a Monk and a Sorcerer mule. Taking it weakens my character, without providing any benefit whatsoever. In 95% of cases, it does the same for any sorcerer. You lose a spell slot to gain healing for no one you play with.

BTW, as an Air Savant, I can get more mobs consistently with higher damage numbers with Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. Even jump casting, Chain Lightning has odd issues, sometimes not doing any damage at all to anything. OFS has been rock solid reliable for me. I have only a few ranks in the cold lines; max in the electric, and sup VI clickies for both, so if anything, a comparable electric spell should be considerably more powerful. It's not. Surge certainly is more powerful than Biting Cold, so why the inconsistency? I'll take reliable over unreliable any day. So as far as DPS, Chain Lightning isn't on par with other offerings at 6.

I'd rather scroll things like Teleport, and cast buffs like GH. Teleport scrolls are cheap and plentiful, and only serve a limited convenience purpose. One often fulfilled by a guild ship these days. Detect Secrets is a waste, I carry a wand.

[broolthebeast]

I run with pugs or with a guild that is small and may or may not have a Bard in any given group. I'm not keeping them displaced constantly, so Blur lets me mitigate damage over a long term. Pugs are pugs. Even if there is a Bard, I'd rather coordinate the buffing duties, so to spread the sp costs around; after all, they can heal through sp, I can only scroll heal. At the very least, I'd rather hit the blurs and let them hit the FoM instead. And lets face it, if you need ooze puppet to run through the sub, you've got more problems than just loading your list with spells you never use.

I so rarely run with Warforged of any kind that taking recon is a waste; and in my honest opinion a Sorcerer who constantly wastes a slot on a spell he never ever uses needs to reroll. Half the time I'm soloing anyway, so what am I going to do with Recon? Nothing. In my guild I have the only Warforged, a Monk and a Sorcerer mule. Taking it weakens my character, without providing any benefit whatsoever. In 95% of cases, it does the same for any sorcerer. You lose a spell slot to gain healing for no one you play with.

I dont consider it a wasted slot if their is nothing *I* perceive as better to slot in its place. I dont view it as a waste considering the groups I normally run with know I have it, and are happy I have it. Can things be done without recon? Sure, absolutely. Is it easier to have the spell then strictly scroll recon? absolutely. Again, this was my spell list. I'm not saying that its a "must" have, Im just stating the benefits of it over another spell at that spell level that I dont view as helpful.

As far as ooze puppet. A single use spell, that I find is helpful for those noobish pugs that like to try and kill a living spell instead of running by it. Saves time them trying to kill it, saves time people having to run back and pick up their soul stone. Only place I use it, and not really anything else in that spell level that I need to carry. Then again, I am also done with my vod/hound runs on all my toons so Im sure I might switch it out down the line when Im not feeling so lazy. It's also a lvl 2 spell and nothing in that list is a must that I dont have already.

BTW, as an Air Savant, I can get more mobs consistently with higher damage numbers with Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. Even jump casting, Chain Lightning has odd issues, sometimes not doing any damage at all to anything. OFS has been rock solid reliable for me. I have only a few ranks in the cold lines; max in the electric, and sup VI clickies for both, so if anything, a comparable electric spell should be considerably more powerful. It's not. Surge certainly is more powerful than Biting Cold, so why the inconsistency? I'll take reliable over unreliable any day. So as far as DPS, Chain Lightning isn't on par with other offerings at 6.

I'd rather scroll things like Teleport, and cast buffs like GH. Teleport scrolls are cheap and plentiful, and only serve a limited convenience purpose. One often fulfilled by a guild ship these days. Detect Secrets is a waste, I carry a wand.

I find chain lightning to be perfectly suitable and I've played with otilukes. I get higher numbers as a t3 air savant with chain than I do with a non enhanced otilukes. I rarely fire a chain lightning that doesnt hit something. the majority of the time I find it lands at least 2 mobs and they dont have to be in close vicinity. the way savants are now, it really doesnt matter what you take. Its all going to get the job done. I prefer being able to chain cast back to back to aoe high dps lightning spells, you dont. Either way, I bet the same result happens.

Our scroll pref's are just going to stay polar opposites. I use Teleport a lot more than I use g. hero. Detect may be a waste in your book but what else at that level do you "absolutly" need? nothing and I'd rather have the free inventory slot. Not that Im that limited in my space, but I try and keep consumables as limited as possible. No need for over clutter in my book.

Anyways thats the wonderful thing about life. Everyone get's their own opinions and preferences.

[Malison]

Why both haste and expeditious?
*snip*
Scrolling GH I found to be theoretically excellent but a failed idea. I really want to know if someone actually does it and is not bothered about it.

I use expeditious because if my run speed goes to 0 when haste wears off, I die.
I neither slot GH nor scroll it. Most of the time, I run with bards with the GH song, or melee who bring their own clicky.

To the OP, this'll look pretty familiar with all the other examples, but:
(Air Savant 20)
1 Jump, Nightshield, Expeditious, Grease
2 Knock, Web, Resist Energy, Gust of Wind
3 Haste, Rage, Displacement, Magic Circle vs Evil
4 Ice Storm, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Crushing Despair
5 Niac's Biting, Eladar's Electric, Ball Lightning, Cloudkill
6 Disintegrate, Acid Fog, Otiluke's Sphere
7 Finger of Death, Banishment, Otto's Sphere
8 Polar Ray, Summon Monster, Power Word Stun
9 Wail, Energy Drain, Power Word Kill

I've been considering swapping out Banish/Otto's Sphere (for what? I don't know, probably mass invis), and Summon 8 (symbol of death) because I never cast them since capping. Everything else is a staple of my play, which is primarily epics.

Some notes on differences:
Gust - I hate enemy clouds, discos, etc. Typically I keep my melee friends displaced or in no danger, so I don't bother with blur.
Magic Circle - personal choice over prot v evil, entirely because I'd rather just cast it once.
Ice Storm - I hate this spell, but I needed an AoE DoT. With no points in acid or fire...
Crushing Despair - just picked this one up this week, it's really nice before a Wail.
Acid Fog - yes, really. Because it gives -4 to AC, which is nice in a few situations I'm in frequently.
Power Words - I don't think I could take these on a wizard, but sorc cooldowns make them useful.
[Lack of mass hold] - my enchant DC is not good. Consequently, web and death are my CC.

[soulaeon]

Disintegrate, Reconstruct, Necrotic Ray, Mass Suggestion and Greater Heroism are all very important spells. GH and Disintegrate are absolutely not negotiable. so the level 6 slot is actually very competitive indeed.

It's not negotiable if you plan your spell selection that way. Once I could get Meteor Swarm, Disintegrate became obsolete, and is only for very few fights any way.
In the Demon Queen fight, I could continue attacking the boss without moving from the group, even while she teleported. Disintegrate does not arch, so you actually need a straight line to hit, otherwise.

I've healed tanks in VoD and ToD. Recon is not needed, even with WF, unless they suck. It makes things easier, but to be frank, a good player who knows what they're doing will make those raids easier than just sticking a WF out there solely because they can be reconned. The smoothest runs I've had were with fleshy tanks. There, it's heal spell and scroll. One VoD run on my FvS, I never even cast a heal at the tank, they had such a healing amp and such a durable build that scrolls handled it without issue. I've gotten to the point that I avoid lfms for those raids that are looking specifically for a wf to tank, and those runs tend to be frustrating at best.

I am totally against the idea of planning a raid based on one character's race. Yes, they can survive well in a different way, but I find the concept pretentious when there was a time when there were no warforged, and people could still survive raids. It's blasphemous, I know.

Yes but there is another air summon at level 6 i think?? lvl 8 scrolls are not available iirc so using that lvl 6 air hurricane would work... summons die soon anywayz. air thingies escape the hits by making trash mobs fall. And for ice sorcerer, lvl 7 fire genie is good when fighting with ice mobs like frost giants ... though summons are useless there as those have high hp. Truthfully only summon I found worthwhile was mummy lord during mid level quests. But its too costly.

The air elemental is the only one worth having because it can trip most enemies, and survive longer; there are no others except the mephit which does not do much. Incidentally, level 8 spells are not the hardest to pick, so Summon Monster fits well for a lot of people.

[xtchizobr]

In the parties I run in, blurs rarely asked for or needed. In epic runs the bard hands out the blurs and g. hero's anyways.

I didnt say to re-roll to change the spells out. I said if your an air savant without your 2 highest dps spells in your spell book you need to reroll (eladars excluded) As for reconstruct, again I disagree, its too valuable a spell in end game raids (ie: tod/vod). That and recon'ing a tank in vod/tod is not outside your realm of responsibility. I rarely run with WF, recon stays in my spell book perm. Simply carrying scrolls doesn't always cut it for recon'ing a main tank. I dont see any other "must" haves at lvl 6 outside of chain lightning.

It's all personal preference, and personal play style. You can run without it, I prefer to run with it. Kinda like I think disintegrate is **** for an air savant at cap, but you think its the king of nukes. Again g hero can be scrolled, no need to waste a spot on it if you need something else at lvl 6. In my honest opinion chain and recon are just to solid to pass up, reguardless of what race you are. Non air savants can of course drop chain.

couple things...

you're responding to a different person than you think there, and you recommend using scrolls for everything under the sun except Reconstruct...? when Reconstruct is the most situational spell you have??

you shrug off as "meh" anything that isn't a direct nuke -- so i can only imagine that you're left at level 20 with nothing but damage output. i bet your cleric really loves that. "Symbol of Pain for -4 on everything? meh. SS for 10 stacking DR? meh. Hold that big mob that hits hard? meh. cloud spells with excellent SP efficiency and stacking concealment/slow? meh." "oh i see. so what exactly can you do to help with the costs of healing your little joy ride through here?" "meh. i just want to ********** with my #1 key." "... i see."

basically, you're completely missing the point of playing a spellcaster. damage is easy to come by. utility and buffs are restricted to spellcasters. if you can't provide the utility and buffs, i don't want you in my party. a good warrior type is more valuable than your stamina-bar of shiny numbers because they can take the hits and keep aggro off me. oh yeah, and they don't run completely out of Spell Points two minutes into the dungeon because they were spamming max-Meta'd nukes at every little thing.

[dlsidhe]

Level 9 Earth Savant, currently:

1: Jump, Sleep, Nightshield, and Niac's
2: Melf's, Energy Resistance, Blur, and Knock
3: Acid Blast, Haste, Frost Lance
4: Acid Rain, Burning Blood

I'm considering swapping Burning Blood for Enervation, though Burning Blood is tons of fun against trolls in the Thraashk Arena and Sorrowdusk. I'm looking forward to 12 and freeing up a level 2 slot with the Melf's SLA.

[Oracle_Gil]

...
The air elemental is the only one worth having because it can trip most enemies, and survive longer; there are no others except the mephit which does not do much. Incidentally, level 8 spells are not the hardest to pick, so Summon Monster fits well for a lot of people.

Its funny that those are exactly the reasons I hate air elemental. It trips enemies and it wont die quickly.
I guess that depends on playstyle. I like to collect my mobs toghether and AoE them after I cc them in area or just AoE them. With intimidate somehow not working out after update, I have to work hard to get aggro before I kill them all.
I used to use air elemental in sands a lot, I used to stoneskin it also(looks funny) but that was the last place I used them.

Originally Posted by Malison
I use expeditious because if my run speed goes to 0 when haste wears off, I die.
I neither slot GH nor scroll it. Most of the time, I run with bards with the GH song, or melee who bring their own clicky.

I think it is some playstyle I am not familiar with... so I cant really comment on that.
But I am curious. Is this place the epics? or amrath? Or are you talking about when you get DA? I understand that speed is important and I use haste just before I expect a fight. For example, when I know after turning corner I will find three mobs pouncing on me, or when a sentry is patrolling ahead of me. For that time, haste is always more than enough before fight ends(as with sorcerer it ends very soon).
Regarding GH also I need it with me independently. That is because I am human sorcerer. To heal myself and to use raise dead scrolls, I need GH as in slot. It helps in situations when all the people who can raise are dead and nobody can bring them back till shrine. So I guess that depends on how critical it is for us.

EDIT: I would absolutely love air elemntals if we have an ability to unsummon them rather than just waiting.

[broolthebeast]

couple things...

you're responding to a different person than you think there, and you recommend using scrolls for everything under the sun except Reconstruct...? when Reconstruct is the most situational spell you have??

you shrug off as "meh" anything that isn't a direct nuke -- so i can only imagine that you're left at level 20 with nothing but damage output. i bet your cleric really loves that. "Symbol of Pain for -4 on everything? meh. SS for 10 stacking DR? meh. Hold that big mob that hits hard? meh. cloud spells with excellent SP efficiency and stacking concealment/slow? meh." "oh i see. so what exactly can you do to help with the costs of healing your little joy ride through here?" "meh. i just want to ********** with my #1 key." "... i see."

basically, you're completely missing the point of playing a spellcaster. damage is easy to come by. utility and buffs are restricted to spellcasters. if you can't provide the utility and buffs, i don't want you in my party. a good warrior type is more valuable than your stamina-bar of shiny numbers because they can take the hits and keep aggro off me. oh yeah, and they don't run completely out of Spell Points two minutes into the dungeon because they were spamming max-Meta'd nukes at every little thing.

your right, i referenced someone else in the last post. I do apologize. Its not all nukes, but really thats what the sorc role is for.

Im not missing the point of a spell caster, I am however doing what the Sorc does best. I have all the buffs that are absolutely needed. I stopped using most of the debuffs when things became absolutely easy. Whens the last time you needed to debuff harry in the shroud? Matter of fact when's the last time you didnt have him drop in under 60 seconds in part 4? Keep aggro off you? If its dead it cant aggro you..... If you're blowing thru 3k spell points in 2 mins, your also doing it wrong. **** I can barely empty my blue bar on harry in part 4 anymore with the SLA's we get now.

Whats really needed outside of rage, haste, displacement and jump? G hero? really? REALLY? you dont have a clickie out of aramath or a couple of girds? A scroll isnt good enough for you? I've got several situationals. Ice storm, only used in 1 place now... part 1 of the shroud on the portals. Fire wall, only used in 1 place now.. TOD kiting. Recon, used in any raid where I have to babysit a WF tank.

What can I do to help you heal thru here? End the fight before you need to use any of your precious blue bar. Does ck provide concealment? ya, it sure does.. Do I think its worth carrying on an air savant any more? nope sure dont. Do we complete elite TOD's and what not without it? Sure do.



Stone skin - using a scroll grants you a more, since your taking a negative to your caster level but you dont off a scroll.

[xtchizobr]

your right, i referenced someone else in the last post. I do apologize. Its not all nukes, but really thats what the sorc role is for.

Im not missing the point of a spell caster, I am however doing what the Sorc does best. I have all the buffs that are absolutely needed. I stopped using most of the debuffs when things became absolutely easy. Whens the last time you needed to debuff harry in the shroud? Matter of fact when's the last time you didnt have him drop in under 60 seconds in part 4? Keep aggro off you? If its dead it cant aggro you..... If you're blowing thru 3k spell points in 2 mins, your also doing it wrong. **** I can barely empty my blue bar on harry in part 4 anymore with the SLA's we get now.

Whats really needed outside of rage, haste, displacement and jump? G hero? really? REALLY? you dont have a clickie out of aramath or a couple of girds? A scroll isnt good enough for you? I've got several situationals. Ice storm, only used in 1 place now... part 1 of the shroud on the portals. Fire wall, only used in 1 place now.. TOD kiting. Recon, used in any raid where I have to babysit a WF tank.

What can I do to help you heal thru here? End the fight before you need to use any of your precious blue bar. Does ck provide concealment? ya, it sure does.. Do I think its worth carrying on an air savant any more? nope sure dont. Do we complete elite TOD's and what not without it? Sure do.



Stone skin - using a scroll grants you a more, since your taking a negative to your caster level but you dont off a scroll.

sounds like you're being carried.

what you really demonstrate is the major imbalance and poor design that plagues "end game" in DDO. it's not my fault that you only run one single dungeon ad infinitum -- if all i ever did was run Delera, i'm sure i could get by with a really horrible spell selection too. so long as you have Firewall, what other spell do you need to run it, after all???

your defensive baloney is just as fallacious, and it's because of posters like you that everyone gets stuck with "that one guy" while they're leveling up or doing pugs or whatever.

if you think the "sorc role" is to just nuke, then you're in the same camp as nannybot clerics.

[Diyon]

sounds like you're being carried.

what you really demonstrate is the major imbalance and poor design that plagues "end game" in DDO. it's not my fault that you only run one single dungeon ad infinitum -- if all i ever did was run Delera, i'm sure i could get by with a really horrible spell selection too. so long as you have Firewall, what other spell do you need to run it, after all???

your defensive baloney is just as fallacious, and it's because of posters like you that everyone gets stuck with "that one guy" while they're leveling up or doing pugs or whatever.

if you think the "sorc role" is to just nuke, then you're in the same camp as nannybot clerics.

The "sorc" role is what you make of it.

If I accept a wizard or sorcerer into my group I will expect this.

1. Baseline buffs (less so if at really low level)
2. Some combination of nuking/dps/cc. I don't care what combination. If I DO care, then it will say so in the LFM.

My sorc primarily nukes. I do have have otto's irresistible, PWS, and PWK for cc more or less when I need it. But I'm light on the CC. Honestly, a lot of stuff I can just nuke to death before they do anything troublesome.

[Malison]

I think it is some playstyle I am not familiar with... so I cant really comment on that.
But I am curious. Is this place the epics? or amrath? Or are you talking about when you get DA? I understand that speed is important and I use haste just before I expect a fight. For example, when I know after turning corner I will find three mobs pouncing on me, or when a sentry is patrolling ahead of me. For that time, haste is always more than enough before fight ends(as with sorcerer it ends very soon).

This is primarily epics. I'm a fleshy sorc, so avoiding damage is easier than healing (scrolls are a pain). There's a lot of kiting involved while waiting for energy drain + fod or crushing despair + wail to come off cooldown or enemies to get stuck in web, and they do a lot of damage. Getting surrounded because your haste wore off typically leads directly to soulstone.