An issue that may or may not have been discussed is the problem with high level crafting and guilds. At least on Cannith/Sarlona/Khyber I've been noticing the general strategy that guilds are using is to produce a single "Guild Crafter" with very high level crafting skills. Couple this with the fact that crafting beyond level 50 is extremely plat & time consuming and is nearly an impossible task for anyone but the most hardcore gamer and I see a problem brewing.
"Elite guilds" along with their pbase drift higher and higher in the power scale relative to the more "casual/slightly hardcore" pbase which probably represents the majority of the players in DDO. Devs, may not believe this is a problem (since it's really not a technical issue but more of a internal social issue) but this "power drift" will eventually make it that much harder for devs to roll out quests balanced for their entire pbase.
Definition: A Guild crafter (from what I've been noticing) is a single shared "mule" character that a trusted segment of a guild (usually the officers who all have each others phone numbers) would level up as a team. Ingredients/essences/plats will be donated by the entire guild (at least in my guild, the officers would actually be brazen enough to give me a tell saying "Did you donate some essences/plats today?").
The benefits to this is obvious, Guild Crafting becomes a cakewalk when you split the grinding duties between 20~30 people in eleven different time zones with some 200+ other people throwing in plats/essences to give you enough mats for a dozen capped crafters. And the payoff at the end is also obvious "Hey does so and so have a harry beater?"..."Oh darn, he doesn't" ..."Hey no problem, let me get on Guild Crafter and whip him up a set of +5 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh of Greater Evil Outsider Bane Khopeshes, it'll just be a sec."
Conclusion: Crafting is great... I love it. But this such a complex system (not technically as much as the balancing issue part) that it should really REALLY have been thoroughly tested on Lam before going live. Hopefully, the devs can find an ingenious solution to all of this... because if they don't... I see this becoming a Sony's Star Wars Galaxies moment for Turbine.
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07-13-2011, 09:55 AM #1Community Member
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Crafting + Guilds: Possible Problem.
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07-13-2011, 11:41 AM #2Community Member
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Meh, ive been playing pretty casually and managed to get to lvl 82 in one school with virtually no help from my guild. I think 2 guildies gave me around 100 essences each. That could have easily been 2 friends. We have 2 other guildies that are near or at cap currently.
Originally Posted by Boromirs
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07-13-2011, 11:45 AM #3Community Member
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I donot see any problem with it.
DDO has newbies to vets and proz. Players with jst decent gear to fully equipped epic gears....so balance an issue?
Sainikudu lvl20 monk(2nd life) Drsainikudu lvl2 fvs (3rd life) Mittu lvl12/2 wiz/rogue (2nd life) sainz lvl14 AA Shakthi lvl11/1/1 rgr/mnk/rog soccerer lvl5 sorc.
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07-13-2011, 11:52 AM #4Community Member
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The 'ingenous solution' today is requiring demon blood and devil scales for GLOB, GCOB and GEOB, a flawless siberys for GDB, a yugo pot for attack +4 and a silver flame pot for holy burst. Originally Posted by Boromirs
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07-13-2011, 12:12 PM #5Community Member
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Meh well i guess the devs heard you.Thats bragtastic ! Thanks ! Originally Posted by Quikster
And really its becouse of comments like that we got our lovely recipes. I think your casual play ( 8hours/day ?) is not my casual play of 8 hours a week.- Kalevala of Khyber- Suomi Funland Perkele -
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07-13-2011, 12:27 PM #6Community Member
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lvl 82 even in one school will take some epic amounts of grinding. I know I took like 4~5 hours of play a day to get to scratch the surface of lvl 80 so... if you took a shorter period of time you must have a hack since this was continuous grinding. Originally Posted by Quikster
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07-13-2011, 12:43 PM #7Community Member
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Seriously. Originally Posted by lethargos
"Pretty Casually" seems like a gross understatement.
I've been crafting as much as I can with my playtime for the last several weeks and achieved...level 40? not even?
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07-13-2011, 01:01 PM #8Community Member
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It's just simply more efficient to have a guild crafter. That being said, I don't even Bother him unless I have a question. The flip side of this is what if the guild crafter leaves the game? what if there is an update and certain characteristics are taken from the unbound alters(you know like the new one).
I have a simple system. I decon items, armor and shields. I only sell weapons +5 or higher. Gives me the plat I need and a few essences to craft with. My levels are 40ish across the board. Just because theres a more efficient way to craft doesn't mean it's The way to go
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07-13-2011, 01:05 PM #9Community Member
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He did say level 80 in one school which means he's probably trading his our essences for that particular type Originally Posted by AmatsukaIncarnate
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07-13-2011, 03:42 PM #10Community Member
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Thats the thing though; Guilds are suppose to have nice things that newbies off korthos dont have access to, wont have for a long time and probably dont even know about. Thats why guilds are what they are, and arent just called "friend list Part 2, the better version". Originally Posted by Boromirs
Examples include:
*Guild buffs
*Vets who know quests inside and out
*Twink gear
*Rare items
*A group of people capable of teaching you all you need to know about X, so you can Y like you've been doing it all your life.
*Like minded people who wont mind certain habits, certain requests or certain personal failures
Hell, even going by the original intent of "Guild" this new crafting thing is right on the money. Guilds were associations of tradesmen who organized, shared information and worked in manners that, at the very least, indirectly cooperated with each other. Jericko not selling pots, Greddo only selling jars, Jacques teaching people how to make pots and jars, etc.
Yes, newbies should be able to get these things on their own...eventually. They arent excluded from crafting altogether and never should be, as that wouldnt be fair. But, by all rights, the group of 29 people who have been playing since 5 years before the game came out should be leaps and bounds ahead of Tom, who just stepped off the Korthos boat, if he and they are working on similar goals.
Besides the small matter of multiple people playing one character(Is that even allowed? You might want to discourage your guild from doing that...) there is nothing wrong with this. If my whole guild sends one person things to become a maxed out crafter and he then make things for them, we're playing the game perfectly: Sharing, working together towards a common goal, benefitting from each other...
In basically every MMo, people who can tolorate the grind to becoem crafters are desired, as such people can create useful things. Guilds either snatch them up, or groom them to become a crafter in the first place. Why should guilds be punished for doing something that is basically common sense?
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Assuming that being able to gear up a player from head to toe in generic(very very nice generic, but generic all the same) gear is a bad thing...why dont you have a problem with the amount of plat a character can have? Or the AH? or /Trade? Give me 2 mill plat, a minute on the AH and another minute in "/TRade" and I'll have that newby walking around thinking he is an e-thug because his teeth are gold.
How is just outright buying the gear any different from paying in time and gold to make the gear, even if you are splitting the time/money cost among dozens of people? If you can get 200 people to toss in 1k plat in essenses, couldnt you request a donation of 1k plat to get Tom all the +2 tomes and +# items he needs to beat kobolds like they owe him money? Couldn't you just ask for the items themselves?Last edited by Doxmaster; 07-13-2011 at 03:44 PM.
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07-13-2011, 05:03 PM #11Time Bandit
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It'd be nice if this were the way it works. Unfortunately, unbound shards are twice the level, meaning that crafting for others (or having a guild crafter) will never catch up to being able to craft stuff for oneself, unless unbound levels end up being capped at twice the bound levels. The cost of leveling up a guild crafter is also pretty substantial compared with just getting the mats yourself.
Take the example of making a +4 holy (silver from weapon) of (regular) lawful outsider bane. It has potential +8 which is level 40 (bound), +4 which is level 45 arcane, holy which is level 37 divine, and LOB which is level 41 divine. So the shard levels needed are level 45 arcane and level 41 divine, which means you can start crafting it at level 35 arcane and level 31 divine. So you need 4097 arcane XP and 2910 divine XP, or a total of 7007 XP if you crafted the bound version yourself a DR-bypasser that's roughly a Min2 (though slightly stronger).
Now say people pooled their resources so that a specific person can be the designated crafter for this. Then then potential +8 is level 80 (unbound), +4 is level 90 arcane, holy is level 73 divine, LOB is level 81 divine. So you'd need arcane 80 and divine 71 to craft the unbound version. That's 29738 arcane XP and 22988 divine XP, or a total of 52726 total XP. So it's around 7.5 people's worth of mats -- that is to say, in exchange for having a guild crafter, you have the equivalent of 7.5 people not being able to make their own crafted weapons. May be feasible for large guilds, but harder to come by for small guilds. This also assumes that the XP/mat ratio is pretty constant as you level up -- that is, it takes the same amount of mats to go from 20000 to 21000 XP as it does to go from 2000 to 3000 XP, which I'm not sure about.
But here's the rub. Let's say you want to make a +5 holy burst silver of greater lawful outsider bane. The bound version is potential +13 which is level 80, +5 which is arcane level 70, holy burst which is divine level 72, and GLOB which is divine level 73. So this means you can make the parts at arcane 60 and divine 63. But to make the potential +13 shard, you'll need to level at least one school to level 70 to make the level 80 shard, so I'll choose divine since it has a higher required level. Thus, you need arcane 60 and divine 70 to make the +5 holy burst silver of GLOB for yourself, or 15838 arcane XP and 22288 divine XP, a total of 38126 XP.
If you wanted to make unbound +5 holy burst silver of GLOB, however, you're out of luck. The potential +13 is bound level 80, so the unbound version is likely level 160. The +5 enhancement is bound level 70, so the unbound version is likely arcane level 140. Similarly, holy burst is likely divine level 144, and GLOB is likely divine level 146. Because the potential is so high though, you'll have to wait until they release unbound shards up to level 160. And as with above, you'll need crafting levels of arcane 130 and divine 150 to make these.
We can extrapolate the XP needed for this. For level 42 and above, thus far the XP for each crafting level matches 5*lvl^2 - 5*lvl - 1862 exactly. So the XP needed per level are projected to be:
For arcane 130 you'll need 81988 XP, and for divine 150 you'll need 109888 XP, a total of 191876 XP -- over 5x more than the 38126 XP for a person to craft this on his own. So to have a dedicated crafter, you'll need to sacrifice 5 people's ability to make them on their own. Plus, you need to wait for Turbine's schedule on releasing levels to 160 or above. Those 5 people can be crafting the high-tier versions for themselves right now. The dedicated crafter can only craft the middle-tier version for everyone.Code:42 6748 43 7168 44 7598 45 8038 46 8488 47 8948 48 9418 49 9898 50 10388 51 10888 52 11398 53 11918 54 12448 55 12988 56 13538 57 14098 58 14668 59 15248 60 15838 61 16438 62 17048 63 17668 64 18298 65 18938 66 19588 67 20248 68 20918 69 21598 70 22288 71 22988 72 23698 73 24418 74 25148 75 25888 76 26638 77 27398 78 28168 79 28948 80 29738 81 30538 82 31348 83 32168 84 32998 85 33838 86 34688 87 35548 88 36418 89 37298 90 38188 91 39088 92 39998 93 40918 94 41848 95 42788 96 43738 97 44698 98 45668 99 46648 100 47638 101 48638 102 49648 103 50668 104 51698 105 52738 106 53788 107 54848 108 55918 109 56998 110 58088 111 59188 112 60298 113 61418 114 62548 115 63688 116 64838 117 65998 118 67168 119 68348 120 69538 121 70738 122 71948 123 73168 124 74398 125 75638 126 76888 127 78148 128 79418 129 80698 130 81988 131 83288 132 84598 133 85918 134 87248 135 88588 136 89938 137 91298 138 92668 139 94048 140 95438 141 96838 142 98248 143 99668 144 101098 145 102538 146 103988 147 105448 148 106918 149 108398 150 109888
Also, these shards are unbound. There is no reason unbound shards have to be guild-only. When sufficient people get to those levels, they can be made and sold on the auction house. So it is not something exclusive to guilds, but whatever a dedicated crafter can make, can also be found on the auction house -- sort of like epic scrolls for guilds that maintain a scroll bank.
So what this really means is that elite guilds are not going to bother with a designated guild crafter. The benefits for each person being able to craft for themselves will outweigh the benefits of having a centralized crafter, plus the powergame mentality is also for each to be more capable and get the best, rather than to dedicate one that can only provide mediocre items for everyone. Elite guilds also tend to be limited by size; you will need enough people willing to sacrifice their own crafting ability to have a dedicated crafter, and this is much easier with large guilds due to scale -- it is much easier to get a lot of players to sacrifice a little, than for a few players to sacrifice a lot (buying guild airships with astral diamonds is another example of this -- because the cost is fixed regardless of guild size, some small elite guilds are foregoing the luxury class of airships altogether, while large guilds can pretty much all afford to buy them as they level up).
So it's more likely that elite guilds won't bother with a dedicated guild crafter per se because multiple members will be getting to the higher levels on their own and willing to spend the resources to do so as Turbine releases more levels. Rather, it's mostly the large guilds that will benefit from having a dedicated guild crafter, by having everyone sacrifice a little and pooling the resources. Because large elite guilds will have multiple people who are already getting to the higher levels on their own, the actual type of guild that will benefit the most from this is large casual guilds (small casual guilds are unlikely to have enough resources to get to the higher levels even if they pool them). What having a dedicated guild crafter will do is to bring all large casuals up from metal + pg to Min2, while the crafting system is bringing individual members in elite guilds (or just individual powergamers in general) from Min2 to +5 holy burst of greater banes. The gap between elites and casuals will likely remain roughly similar, while the gap between large casuals and small casuals will increase.
Note: shard levels taken from cannith crafting spreadsheet here. XP taken from ddowiki here. I haven't bothered to verify them myself, but I assume they've been out long enough that people have corrected any incorrect information.
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07-13-2011, 10:50 PM #12Community Member
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I prolly am on crafting some days late into the night while im watching tv, other days I dont log in at all. Originally Posted by lethargos
As far as questing goes, last night I ran von 6 (twice as the first one was a wreck) shroud, and echrono.
The night before I ran 2 echronos and 2 ev6's.
Didnt play for a few nights before that.
Before the few nights off, I ran 3 IQ quests on hard 1 on elite.
Before that, I didnt play for a few days.
So yeah, thats your 8 hours a day.
The reason you have recipes like we got today, is because once you get a crafter up to level, you can craft very powerful, albeit specific, weapons for as many slots as you need a weapon for. You can do this extremely cheap.
So rather than try to slam me for being an elitist, why dont you try to offer a solution instead of taking pot shots at others?Sarlona's FORMER #1 Piker!!
QuiknDirty~Quikster~Quikkilla Missquik~
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07-13-2011, 10:53 PM #13Community Member
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Not sure how you did it. Me I crafted on nights when not much was going on rather than pugging my trs or epics or raids. I purchased most of my ingredients either as weapons to be decond from the ah or directly off the ah as essences. It took me about a week to get to lvl 60. Originally Posted by Boromirs
I also grabbed my laptop and crafted while watching tv into the wee hours of the morning.
Several guildies have asked recently if i was logging in to play or craft so I guess ive spent some time in the crafting hall.
No hack, either making shards around 50% chances or spamming out lvl 1 shards for 1 xp at a time. Pretty straight forward just like you see all over the forums here.Sarlona's FORMER #1 Piker!!
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07-13-2011, 11:22 PM #14Community Member
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Right. Originally Posted by Boromirs
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07-13-2011, 11:24 PM #15Community Member
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I am a Mercenary with no guild atm. I do not support the ruin of this game.
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07-13-2011, 11:27 PM #16Community Member
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Yes This is a huge step for someone like myself to stand by. But I will always be a, "Free Bird," Mercenary as long as this travesty of such a great game exists and that is guilds with mule crafters ruining the game.
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07-14-2011, 06:02 AM #17Community Member
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I dont have an answer quikster. But what i do have, is a large amount of players who make claims that crafting is soooo easy to achieve as a "casual" player. But the truth is, its the hardcore gamers that have the high crafting levels. You just dont have those as a casual player.
- Kalevala of Khyber- Suomi Funland Perkele -
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07-14-2011, 06:49 AM #18Community Member
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I dont think you need to worry about balance. As of yet there is not one raid or one quest that can't be completed without crafted shroud or any other crafted kind of gear.
In fact the game is too easy for the most part.
Sure, some of the crafted weapons will produce big numbers esp on paladins, but most wont come close to lightning 2 depending on build/mobs. Crafting just gives players more options.
I would say about half the people I know aren't even crafting, including myself, I would rather log on and play with my pals. I have no intention of asking my guildies to craft for me, because unless they can craft a Torc Seal, I don't need it.Hexxa CLR 25 *TR* * ~Hexanna ~*TR* FVS 25 * Hexecuter CLR 20 *Flexanna RGR/R/M 18/1/1 *TR* * Flexa FTR/R 18/2 TR * Hextravaganz Bard *TR* 18/2 * Hexotic Sorc 13 * Hexquisite Wiz 23 * ~~Quantum Entropy * SARLONA~~ - * and various other scoundrels
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07-14-2011, 07:21 AM #19Community Member
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Crafting as such is not a problem. Originally Posted by Boromirs
Problem is that the difference between 'casual' and 'veteran' is bigger then 1d20. DnD works if your number vs monsters number is within 1d20 (1 to 20) range. Its always my DC vs saves + d20 or tohit +1d20 vs AC and so on.
Gear in DDO is so powerful that it breaks d20 system. Not one single piece, but combination, stacking. Items, pots, buff, ship this, tome that, etc.
Gear has broken DDO long time ago. Crafting doesn't break DDO. It was already broken.
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07-14-2011, 08:10 AM #20Community Member
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There's nothing in DDO that hardcore gamers don't have an edge in versus the casual player. Why should there be? Unless you put a "Pick a Boss Beater" quest in the the market like "Hall of the Mark".
Crafting was never going to change the fact that playing more, questing more, and being in an elite or large guild causes you to have better gear. Crafting did give me a chance to make devil beater banes, and I was happy about that. I pretty much just ground up all the items that I would have vendored to get the plat to buy a worse boss beater on the AH.
Elite players with multiple greensteel and Epic items have always and perhaps always will outclass my toon's gear. That's just the way it is.
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