Question on update decisions...

[Seikojin]

There is a difference between negative feedback and abusive feedback, Cyr. This is the point that Turbine is trying to make. Negative constructive feedback is useful.

Abusive feedback is not.

Exactly. The single fastest way to get a whole thread, not one post, but a whole thread, no matter how filled with constructive comments, is to make negative, inflammatory comments. From behind the scenes I have sifted through tons of posts to find the good bits. When I asked why the topic was passed up: too much garbage to sift through.

Despite what some people seem to think, the devs are real people who do take some comments personally. They are here genuinely trying to help and work with everyone. And like it or not, if they get offended, the first thing that generally happens is walking away from the topic.

Madfloyd and quite a few other devs, mods, and community members come here and endure the stress put on them by the complaints.

[Postumus]

Madfloyd and quite a few other devs, mods, and community members come here and endure the stress put on them by the complaints.

I'm not condoning histrionic complaints or personal attacks, but anyone who has ever worked in the customer service industry is familiar with negative feedback and that customers are much more likely to report negative experiences than positive ones. There are a percentage of customers who let their emotions get the better of them and have a hard time articulating their frustration, legitimate or not.


While Turbine employees are people too, people who have to deal with customers are (or should be) trained to have thick skin, take things with a grain of salt, and look past the emotion to the legitimate complaint.


From what I have seen from responses here, the Turbine staff does a pretty good job at this. And as long as there aren't threats or personal attacks, they obviously do consider the feedback posted in the forums.


I think the moderators could do a slightly better job simply deleting objectionable and handing out 24 'time-outs' to posters rather than simply locking a thread. But maybe they do more of this than I realize.

[Cyr]

There is a difference between negative feedback and abusive feedback, Cyr. This is the point that Turbine is trying to make. Negative constructive feedback is useful.

Abusive feedback is not.

Sure there is a difference between the two. However, the major difference usually is the strength in which someone feels about the subject. If negative feedback is constantly filtered to seem less negative, but positive feedback faces no filtering then a distorted impression can emerge about the feelings of the player base when it comes to the subject under discussion.

This is really pretty basic.

If I say "I don't particularly like this change" because I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or I know that my opinion will just be deleted from the forums otherwise, but I really feel "That this is the worst change in the games history and the developer in charge of this clearly does not play the game in any serious fashion" then my feedback is fundamentally different. One is a rather mild opinion while the other actually demonstrates that hey this really matters to me.

It's not really reflective of how I feel.

Look at the converse if positive feedback was filtered if it was too strong. I say "This change is good" because I know that my opinion will be deleted otherwise, but I really feel that "This change is the best thing that ever happened to the game. It fundamentally alters how we play the game for the better and the developer in charge of it clearly has an in depth understanding of the game and how it plays". You will note that in this case again the difference is astounding and similar to the above.

Now just add the following lines to either bit of feedback on the extreme case side...

"This change will make me quit/play this game forever if they go forward and the developer in charge of this change should take full credit for this".

This most often comes up when it comes to mentioning the developers on these forums. In reality though to give honest negative feedback that actually reflects your real beliefs it is not possible to not run the risk of hurting someone's feelings. Statements like "they must not play the game", "they pushed something to live without play testing", "they should be fired", and such are often not just angry flames but the honest statements of people who actually believe based upon job performance these things.

The developers are proffesionals and should be thrilled to have feedback of all forms given in an honest and open manner because only in this manner can they truly gage the opinions of the players.

If feedback is constantly and relentlessly skewed in the positive direction, which filtering strong negative feedback and not filtering strong positive feedback does, then developers are left with the impression that their changes are better recieved then they actually are.

I find it amusing that the response here was all about someone posting "Complaints about them being a terrible choice of ingredients is a form of feedback" which is actually an incredibly mild form of negative feedback. If that mild of negative feedback is viewed as possibly 'abusive' then almost any negative feedback woudl be viewed that way.

[AMDarkwolf]

Oh gee, ya your right. Never mind, I mean, I will hurt their FEELBADS so I better not say ANYTHING negative about the patch/update?

Bleh bad thing to say. If we are 'soft' with our feed back(I think so and so needs fixing) the devs will see it as NEUTRAL feed back. If we take out feelings and SLAP THEM ACROSS the face with it, WHOA guess what, THEY GET THE PICTURE.

Sorry but being nice isn't the way to do business, if u were 'nice' you would either lose your company or get replaced by someone else.

The real world is brutal, take a look outside sometime. And be careful, your feelbads might get bruised.

[Seikojin]

Oh gee, ya your right. Never mind, I mean, I will hurt their FEELBADS so I better not say ANYTHING negative about the patch/update?

Bleh bad thing to say. If we are 'soft' with our feed back(I think so and so needs fixing) the devs will see it as NEUTRAL feed back. If we take out feelings and SLAP THEM ACROSS the face with it, WHOA guess what, THEY GET THE PICTURE.

Sorry but being nice isn't the way to do business, if u were 'nice' you would either lose your company or get replaced by someone else.

The real world is brutal, take a look outside sometime. And be careful, your feelbads might get bruised.

To that I say:

Exactly. The single fastest way to get a whole thread ignored, not one post, but a whole thread, no matter how filled with constructive comments, is to make negative, inflammatory comments. From behind the scenes I have sifted through tons of posts to find the good bits. When I asked why the topic was passed up: too much garbage to sift through.

Despite what some people seem to think, the devs are real people who do take some comments personally. They are here genuinely trying to help and work with everyone. And like it or not, if they get offended, the first thing that generally happens is walking away from the topic.

Madfloyd and quite a few other devs, mods, and community members come here and endure the stress put on them by the complaints.

I understand the negitive feedback. But like people who flame scream, think about what you do before you do it. Clearly Turbine does. I know Madfloyd isn't the oly person at the company, but if you look at the wording of the posts, you can see that before any post is placed on the forums from the team, it is really looked over for impact.

I may not work at Turbine, but I do have experience in the same exact field. The business model is pretty common, I see no reason why Turbine would do something different.

I also have worked with projects where they didn't succeed for the sole reason of testing too long. Timelines and schedules were made so software can make it out and earn some money.

The plain understanding of patches and fixes make it easy for mistakes to make it out, because they will always work on it. Or they can work on it.

In the end, I am just saying, try to construct your feedback differently, and it will have much, MUCH better impact.

[Letrii]

To that I say:



I understand the negitive feedback. But like people who flame scream, think about what you do before you do it. Clearly Turbine does. I know Madfloyd isn't the oly person at the company, but if you look at the wording of the posts, you can see that before any post is placed on the forums from the team, it is really looked over for impact.

I may not work at Turbine, but I do have experience in the same exact field. The business model is pretty common, I see no reason why Turbine would do something different.

I also have worked with projects where they didn't succeed for the sole reason of testing too long. Timelines and schedules were made so software can make it out and earn some money.

The plain understanding of patches and fixes make it easy for mistakes to make it out, because they will always work on it. Or they can work on it.

In the end, I am just saying, try to construct your feedback differently, and it will have much, MUCH better impact.

If they can't deal with irate customers without a temper tantrum, which deleting/ignoring negative posts that aren't personal attacks are, then they are in the wrong business.

[redspecter23]

I think it's unfortunate but true that screaming and yelling does have an effect on Turbine and does cause a reaction. If they spend all day locking down 100 different threads all complaining about the same thing, they WILL check on whatever that is and see how they can fix it. Constructive, non-abrasive feedback tends to fall off the front page quickly and be forgotten. Drama threads live on until Turbine notices them and lock/deletes them.

Do I like that this seems to be the best way to get yourself heard? No, but in business, people that cry and whine do tend to get what they want more than those that keep a level head and ask politely.

[wisdomstorment]

I dont think i have met many casual players. Honestly I dont think MMOs should cater to the person who occasionally drops in for 2 hours on a weekend.
2+ hours a day would be more like it. Way more for me and those I run with.

I'm a "casual player" in terms of gametime. I have a job, a family and studies that take up the bulk of my life. I "drop-in" for about 3-4 hours every weekend to chill out with an online version of a game I've been playing since the late 80's. I usually run in a static guild with people I've gamed with for over two decades, all of whom are geographically separated and have lives and commitments of their own now. I PUG when my guildies are not available. I've paid money to Turbine to get packs and options I feel are relevant to me. You're saying that DDO shouldn't cater for someone like me?

The beauty of MMO's are that they allow one to game in a manner of their own choosing - soloers, groups, powergamers, casual players, etc, etc. Why shouldn't they be allowed to enjoy the game in their own way?

[AMDarkwolf]

a 'casual' player spends the same amount of money on the adventure packs as a hardcore 'has too much time' player such as me. He spends the same amount on the races. About the only thing he might spend different is on the 'other' things that I (as the hardcore player.. hardcore being has too much time on his hands) can get without spending cash.

The casual player in almost EVERY way, is the one more likely to spend more. He will buy things to optimize his time in the game(be it mana pots, storage bags, whatever)

So with that logic in hand, why would they want to NOT cater to these customers?(Remember a casual player can, and very often is, also a vip)

Now about the negative feedback, like has been said, if a little 'harsh' meanie talk makes them ignore the entire thread, this is an issue with the company. Not us. Do they want to keep us as paying customers? yes. They do. So why would they 'ignore' things we say if the things we say 'REALLY' make us angry? Not a little ****ed off (AKA: my damage is a little less now) but a LOT ****ed off (Offerwall? and ya, the proposed changes to crafting requiring a little too much)

See, I am here, not for myself, since the crafting changes (even the ones with the raid ****) would be bad for me, bit i could handle them. A dreamspitter for GEOB isn't a HUGE deal, i can manage the loss. It sucks, but i can handle it.

I am here for those I like playing with, which in many cases, happen to be the casual players who (In many cases) won't post. Those types have little time to gripe over the forums and (like the above said) would rather go off and find a new game, due to the fact that with family, jobs, and 'real life' have little time to waste in a game that, in many ways, is alienating them.

Think not of yourself, but think of us all.

[Seikojin]

a 'casual' player spends the same amount of money on the adventure packs as a hardcore 'has too much time' player such as me. He spends the same amount on the races. About the only thing he might spend different is on the 'other' things that I (as the hardcore player.. hardcore being has too much time on his hands) can get without spending cash.

The casual player in almost EVERY way, is the one more likely to spend more. He will buy things to optimize his time in the game(be it mana pots, storage bags, whatever)

So with that logic in hand, why would they want to NOT cater to these customers?(Remember a casual player can, and very often is, also a vip)

Now about the negative feedback, like has been said, if a little 'harsh' meanie talk makes them ignore the entire thread, this is an issue with the company. Not us. Do they want to keep us as paying customers? yes. They do. So why would they 'ignore' things we say if the things we say 'REALLY' make us angry? Not a little ****ed off (AKA: my damage is a little less now) but a LOT ****ed off (Offerwall? and ya, the proposed changes to crafting requiring a little too much)

See, I am here, not for myself, since the crafting changes (even the ones with the raid ****) would be bad for me, bit i could handle them. A dreamspitter for GEOB isn't a HUGE deal, i can manage the loss. It sucks, but i can handle it.

I am here for those I like playing with, which in many cases, happen to be the casual players who (In many cases) won't post. Those types have little time to gripe over the forums and (like the above said) would rather go off and find a new game, due to the fact that with family, jobs, and 'real life' have little time to waste in a game that, in many ways, is alienating them.

Think not of yourself, but think of us all.

So as a hardcore player, do you read the entire post in a thread, even if it has flames all over it? For all posts in a thread? This doesn't even have to apply to you, it could be anyone really.

I know I don't scour every post for everything. I try to get the point and move on. But I do find myself skipping posts and threads because of posts that push too far.

It is a human nature thing. Despite it being a problem with the people on the other side of the screen, we on our end, cannot change their behavior. But we can make the choice to illicit feedback and interaction by changing the structure of our posts.

[Letrii]

I try to read whole thread, but if I join late and particularly long I might skim it and focus on first and last page.

[Niarda]

surly if we are using the new crafting as an example to use efficantly u would spend more time crafting than playing getting any where

[Yaga_Nub]

Exactly. The single fastest way to get a whole thread, not one post, but a whole thread, no matter how filled with constructive comments, is to make negative, inflammatory comments ....

Hey! I resemble that remark!

[dopey69]

I'm curious how we went from "hold on guys this patch is 100% dead until this is fixed" to the *very next update window* the patch is live - with no update to Lam or notes to the userbase.

I saw what Mad said... and the reality is the patch wasn't delayed one day. One week from Lam to Live isn't a 'halted or delayed' patch. That's as fast as it goes out the door (except exploit fixes) - and it's quick *even by DDO standards*.

So how did we go from 'not going to happen' to 'it's live'?

And in such a state that *all crafting is now disabled* because of the *RUSH* to push this to the live systems.

*golf clap*

[herzkos]

negative feedback is important.
this feedback does not need to be negative in nature though.

meaning, if there is a problem with something say so, say why, and at least
one potential way to improve it(if possible).

calling out specific turbine employees, acting in a hostile or derogatory manner,
or generally just being disrepectful does not really help anyone.
saying get a thicker skin is an excuse to treat someone like garbage. Someone who
is working (for a living) on something that is at most a hobby to the playerbase should not
have to take abuse or disrespect because of nerdrage* from forum posters.

I fully encourage turbine to delete posts and even ban the more egregious offenders so that
new members are not conditioned to believe that it is ok.

(notice, this is negative feedback and I followed my own advice )

*not saying the op has nerdrage, just stating that the majority of vitriol on these forums seems to be
generated from nerdrage.

[sigtrent]

What is this offerwall?

It was a way you could get turbine points by taking surveys or buying products from other companies. The problem was that the folks who Turbine contracted to provide that service were notorious for selling your information to yet other companies and some of the offers were pretty close to fraudulent.

At the time it was a very popular model for facebook games and such to make money with. The fan community here is pretty sharp and knew a lot about how underhanded the company was (not Turbine, the other one) and voiced their disgust that Turbine would throw their customers under the buss like that.

Turbine very quickly took it down. I think they didn't quite realize either how shady that company was, or how dramatically their fans would react to it. At any rate their response was swift and the offer wall was history within the week. Unlike what the poster says though, it was more than a year ago, more like two years back, very early in Free to Play.

[Seikojin]

I'm curious how we went from "hold on guys this patch is 100% dead until this is fixed" to the *very next update window* the patch is live - with no update to Lam or notes to the userbase.

I saw what Mad said... and the reality is the patch wasn't delayed one day. One week from Lam to Live isn't a 'halted or delayed' patch. That's as fast as it goes out the door (except exploit fixes) - and it's quick *even by DDO standards*.

So how did we go from 'not going to happen' to 'it's live'?

And in such a state that *all crafting is now disabled* because of the *RUSH* to push this to the live systems.

There is a tolerence level that is probably used to determine if a patch should go live. When it hits lam, it has a time limit. Patches typically are up to 2 weeks in test, depending on the changes. This is common and standard practice everywhere. If they receive a ton of feedback, the patch is reworked and retested until the negitive feedback is below that tolerence threshhold.

In this case, no one noticed until it was too late.

[Letrii]

It was a way you could get turbine points by taking surveys or buying products from other companies. The problem was that the folks who Turbine contracted to provide that service were notorious for selling your information to yet other companies and some of the offers were pretty close to fraudulent.

At the time it was a very popular model for facebook games and such to make money with. The fan community here is pretty sharp and knew a lot about how underhanded the company was (not Turbine, the other one) and voiced their disgust that Turbine would throw their customers under the buss like that.

Turbine very quickly took it down. I think they didn't quite realize either how shady that company was, or how dramatically their fans would react to it. At any rate their response was swift and the offer wall was history within the week. Unlike what the poster says though, it was more than a year ago, more like two years back, very early in Free to Play.

I've used something like that for Station Cash before.