Feedback: Favored Soul 101 (Work in Progress)

[Alektronic]

Someone mentioned 'healbot' and as some, small minority suggested boosting cha. Wisdom matters more if you want spells to land - and the build points wasted on 50 more sp at the cap, or even 100 if you go nuts on cha - is not going to make a huge difference at all - if your spells cant land because of a low wisdom - 100 more sp isnt going to save you as you will be spending 3x as much mana healing and recasting spells hoping they will land.

Don't be such a spoilsport. Some people just want to sit back and focus on redbars/status ailments 100% of the time. Maybe throw a divine punishment, swing a sword for mixing it up a bit. For this player, would u recommend any investment in wis? I wouldn't. If someone wants to healbot, they might as well do it "well".

DISCLAIMER: I have never rolled a "healbot" and never plan too. But I do know ppl in game, who enjoy this role. Why build an evoker for someone who is not interested in... offensively casting?

[Alektronic]

This I just don't understand. Why make a pure melee FvS? I don't get it. What's the point? Low DPS, with healing that serves little purpose at high level. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

I don't totally agree with the posted build for pure 20 elven scimmy build, but I would like to defend melee souls on a few misconceptions I think you're spreading:

-Low DPS-
low compared to a fully blown melee toon yes, I would hope so. an evoker FvS also has low DC and spell dps compared to wizards and sorcs. the melee dps achieves the same goal as an evoker, which is to provide a secondary role (outside of healer) that is capable of completing quest objectives. I fail to see how a TWF elf pure melee soul can't achieve these benchmarks.

-Healing that serves little purpose-
Quicken (and maybe maximize) + healing enhancements + devotion = healer... It's not a big investment. TWF, THF, SB... any melee soul should be able to fit in these things for healing.

-Doesn't sound like a good idea-
You, personally, haven't succeeded in building a TWF melee soul that you were happy with. Please realize this, and don't blast other people's builds with your misconceived notions.

[dkyle]

-Low DPS-
low compared to a fully blown melee toon yes, I would hope so. an evoker FvS also has low DC and spell dps compared to wizards and sorcs. the melee dps achieves the same goal as an evoker, which is to provide a secondary role (outside of healer) that is capable of completing quest objectives. I fail to see how a TWF elf pure melee soul can't achieve these benchmarks.

Yes, low compared to fully blown melee toon, but in order to not be compared to those toons, the FvS needs to provide some other, significant, benefit. I remain unconvinced that no-metamagics-but-Quicken Healing is enough to satisfy that criteria.

-Healing that serves little purpose-
Quicken (and maybe maximize) + healing enhancements + devotion = healer... It's not a big investment. TWF, THF, SB... any melee soul should be able to fit in these things for healing.

"maybe" Maximize? The difference between Maximize and no Maximize is huge.

Have you played a character without any Metamagics to boost healing and found it an acceptable Raid/Epic healer?

I know that on my FvS, who has all those enhancements and devotion, if I turn off all my metamagics, those mass cures aren't keeping anyone up if real damage is being thrown around.

Maybe you could get by with Mass Heals, but, especially on a Melee, those are such a pain to use.

[Alektronic]

edit: sorry headed toward derail.

[der_kluge]

What mid- to high- melee FvS isn't running with Divine Power cast? At low levels, the lesser BAB barely matters.

Well, it doesn't last very long, so you're going to find yourself not having it active quite often. Unless you just constantly remember to keep casting it. Plus, it gets lost in the buff list after a while. Plus, you can't cast it against Beholders. Not sure it's a good idea to base a build around having a single spell available and active.

Ultimately, what are you getting out of TWF vs. THF? If it's DPS, I have to question whether full-feat-chain TWF w/out PA is better than no-feats THF w/ PA. Bear in mind that the THF only has one less attack bonus in that equation. And the THF has two more feats to spend on other things (although likely one spent on a martial weapon proficiency), and doesn't need to waste points on DEX, which would mean more STR, and potentially more attack bonus than the no-PA TWF.

A THF build is a very viable option, save for having to take a proficiency in some kind of THF weapon. But remember that TWF proc special attacks more often. Dual-smiters, dual-vorpals, dual-disruptors, etc. will always deal more damage than a THF any day, because you're simply proccing more special attacks. And with scimitars and imp. crit: slashing, I'm critting 1 out of every 4 hits. With dual-vorpals, you can "out-DPS" nearly any tank in the game - at least that was true before the vorpal nerf, but it still seems accurate. My elven FvS can kill a ship dummy in under 20 seconds with dual-smiters - which is just as fast as any barbarian can do it.

A huge strength isn't really a viable option for a FvS, since the class doesn't include a strength enhancement line, and a half-orc FvS just sounds like a bad idea altogether.

Another option is a 2-level fighter splash to pick up PA and maybe OTWF for the reduction in attack penalty, but you lose the almighty DR.

This I just don't understand. Why make a pure melee FvS? I don't get it. What's the point? Low DPS, with healing that serves little purpose at high level. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Low DPS? With Divine Power, there's little difference between a FvS and a pure melee character. Coupled with the leap of faith, and a massive healing ability a FvS is the ultimate solo-machine. My FvS can solo elite Offering of Blood. I'd like to watch a pure barbarian or fighter do that.

ToD rings, various +7 STR items, abishai set, Litany, all provide odd bonuses. And if you have a DEX tome, the additional levelup makes it even, anyway. And while leveling, an odd base stat is just as likely to become an even total as an even base.

Yes, good for you. Anyone with even half that stuff already knows how to make a character. We're not talking to those people.

[voodoogroves]

A THF build is a very viable option, save for having to take a proficiency in some kind of THF weapon. But remember that TWF proc special attacks more often. Dual-smiters, dual-vorpals, dual-disruptors, etc. will always deal more damage than a THF any day, because you're simply proccing more special attacks. And with scimitars and imp. crit: slashing, I'm critting 1 out of every 4 hits. With dual-vorpals, you can "out-DPS" nearly any tank in the game - at least that was true before the vorpal nerf, but it still seems accurate.

A huge strength isn't really a viable option for a FvS, since the class doesn't include a strength enhancement line, and a half-orc FvS just sounds like a bad idea altogether.

Another option is a 2-level fighter splash to pick up PA and maybe OTWF for the reduction in attack penalty, but you lose the almighty DR.

Low DPS? With Divine Power, there's little difference between a FvS and a pure melee character. Coupled with the leap of faith, and a massive healing ability a FvS is the ultimate solo-machine.

Yes, good for you. Anyone with even half that stuff already knows how to make a character. We're not talking to those people.

I think you really need to give this a try before you put it down. It's very effective. TWF (one feat even) requires an investment in stats, won't hit as well, etc.

And if you think Divine Power makes you just about as good as a primary melee ... then you need to get a better understanding of how much rages, FB, power surge, haste boost, sneak attacks, etc. increase melee DPS. You'll have decent enough DPS with Divine Power and gear, but your melee DPS will not be "very little difference".

[der_kluge]

I think you really need to give this a try before you put it down. It's very effective. TWF (one feat even) requires an investment in stats, won't hit as well, etc.

And if you think Divine Power makes you just about as good as a primary melee ... then you need to get a better understanding of how much rages, FB, power surge, haste boost, sneak attacks, etc. increase melee DPS. You'll have decent enough DPS with Divine Power and gear, but your melee DPS will not be "very little difference".

I've never built a THF character, let alone a THF Soul.

Post a viable build. I'd like to see it.

[Bodic]

I have to say I like my Holy/Unholy smite AOE or Chaos Hammer

As of current PrE's the AoV is the best Divine Evoker with the Aura dropping stats and uping damage. that needs be meantioned if it has not already.

[dkyle]

Well, it doesn't last very long, so you're going to find yourself not having it active quite often. Unless you just constantly remember to keep casting it. Plus, it gets lost in the buff list after a while. Plus, you can't cast it against Beholders. Not sure it's a good idea to base a build around having a single spell available and active.

Beholders have lousy AC.

It's not hard to keep up. And most of the time, the to-hit isn't a big issue anyway.

A huge strength isn't really a viable option for a FvS, since the class doesn't include a strength enhancement line, and a half-orc FvS just sounds like a bad idea altogether.

Why? The -2 CHA? That's nothing.

Low DPS? With Divine Power, there's little difference between a FvS and a pure melee character. Coupled with the leap of faith, and a massive healing ability a FvS is the ultimate solo-machine. My FvS can solo elite Offering of Blood. I'd like to watch a pure barbarian or fighter do that.

There's a heck of a lot of difference between a FvS's melee DPS and a real melee character. Full BAB is nothing compared to Rage, FB, Kensai, etc. And without Maximize/Empower, Divine Punishment isn't really going to be bringing the hurt like it could be.

And again, soloing has little to do with melee DPS, and little to do with usefulness in grouping.

Yes, good for you. Anyone with even half that stuff already knows how to make a character. We're not talking to those people.

We're talking to people who could have that stuff someday. Half the point of providing advice to new players is so they know what to expect. And "even half" that stuff isn't needed to justify an odd stat. Just one odd valued stat booster, and an odd base stat pays off. I use the basic abishai set on most of my leveling melees, including my FvS. That's not exactly hard to acquire.

And we're talking to to people who will spend a lot of time without maxed gear. +5 stat items, +1 tomes, etc. For a new player, an odd base stat is not at all unlikely to become an even buffed stat.

[Braegan]

I've never built a THF character, let alone a THF Soul.

Post a viable build. I'd like to see it.

At the risk of a derail. Here's one for you. See post #30 in the link for the updated build.

For a 32pt version go 16, 8, 14, 8, 17, 11

For a 28 pt. go 16, 8, 14, 8, 16, 10.

I know you need the cha to cast spells but that's about 5 mins running harbor quests to pick up a cha +1 item or hit level two and grab the enhancement. Drink a couple of pots and push thru it.

Yes I know riddled with epic gear. But I made that build work long before I had epic gear, it's just better now that I have it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=318443

For a newer player I would also drop GS for Falchion until you get your Epic SoS. Otherwise yup, pretty solid THF FvS with DC's and raid healing capable.

[voodoogroves]

At the risk of a derail. Here's one for you. See post #30 in the link for the updated build.

For a 32pt version go 16, 8, 14, 8, 17, 11

For a 28 pt. go 16, 8, 14, 8, 16, 10.

I know you need the cha to cast spells but that's about 5 mins running harbor quests to pick up a cha +1 item or hit level two and grab the enhancement. Drink a couple of pots and push thru it.

Yes I know riddled with epic gear. But I made that build work long before I had epic gear, it's just better now that I have it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=318443

For a newer player I would also drop GS for Falchion until you get your Epic SoS. Otherwise yup, pretty solid THF FvS with DC's and raid healing capable.

Best thing is, you can ignore DCs as well and go zero-tomes-easy. There are plenty of useful spells to cast (damaging spells included) that don't need a DC or where the DC can be binary (Blade Barrier) and work if you dump WIS.

[Braegan]

Best thing is, you can ignore DCs as well and go zero-tomes-easy. There are plenty of useful spells to cast (damaging spells included) that don't need a DC or where the DC can be binary (Blade Barrier) and work if you dump WIS.

True. But I do like the best of all worlds. As it stands, I can dish out good dps, raid heal and land Destruction/Implosion on Epic mobs if I desire.

But either route is more subject to play-style. I do firmly believe tho it's alot easier to go THF on a FvS then TWF if you do not want to splash. Alot of the TWF Elf Scimmy builds usally splashed two levels of monk to get all the feats needed to make the deal work.

I guess I could draw out both types in a few minutes.

[Tirisha]

I don't believe an Evoker FVS is the best choice for a new player. Most of the spells you get are weaker versions of what the Sorcerer and Wizard can preform in a group. In group play, I think it would be better to melee while not healing (especially for a newer player who doesn't know how to conserve their SP pool). I also think that on a melee fvs it is easier to create a more survivable character because your ability points aren't all locked up into one stat. *while Damage may be a side goal, it should be your main goal on a FVS* On DC based casters, it's all in or go home. But on a melee you could spread more points into Con without seeing a large drop in your offensive capabilities. You also have more AP to spend since you don't need to invest in the very expensive Spell penetration line.

I don't think TWFing is a bad idea for a FVS. While it's not necessary the best dps choice for a pure capped FVS, you also have to remember that DPS should be a secondary goal for a FVS. A FVS with ITWF but not GTWF would still deal significant DPS. Alternatively, TWF is good for Utility purposes: whether it be dual Destruction/improved destruction, two paralyzers or Weakening of Enfeebling wpns. There are good reasons to use TWF on a FVS.

[Braegan]

Ok, was bored. And I love FvS and hate when I see them made silly so here are my two versions for newbies in the vein of melee FvS.

Version I

28 pt, Human

Str: 16
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 16 <- level ups here
Cha: 10

Feats:

Human) Toughness
1) Maximize
3) Falchion (swap to GS If/When you get an ESOS)
6) Extend (Empower or Empower Healing may also fit, but melee self buffs are short and I prefer Extend)
9) Quicken
12) Heighten
15) IC: Slash
18) Power Attack

- Silver Flame Path
- Resist Fire 10
- Resist Elec 10
- Resist Cold 10

Version II

28 pt human

Str: 18 <- level ups here
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

Feats:

Same as above but drop Heighten for Empower or Empower Healing.

[voodoogroves]

Ok, was bored. And I love FvS and hate when I see them made silly so here are my two versions for newbies in the vein of melee FvS.

Version II

28 pt human

Str: 18 <- level ups here
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

Feats:

Same as above but drop Heighten for Empower or Empower Healing.

Version 2 is what I run as the "laser" on one of my FVS, but with a bit less STR and CHA to start but more CON and INT. I posted the feat in an earlier post.

Very simple. Brutally effective. Zero tomes required (though clearly benefits from them)

[Braegan]

Version 2 is what I run as the "laser" on one of my FVS, but with a bit less STR and CHA to start but more CON and INT. I posted the feat in an earlier post.

Very simple. Brutally effective. Zero tomes required (though clearly benefits from them)

Well it's clear that both great minds think alike and we should be on payroll.

Chop, chop. Voodoo & I deserve raises.

[sirgog]

Thanks for the continued feedback guys! After extensive tinkering and discussions, we're inclined to agree that humans offer the most bang-for-buck to newbies rolling an evoker FvS with little-to-no tome additions. We'll still be bringing other races to the fore, but in future guides where it fits better with the class(es) used.

@TheDjinnFor Thanks for the link to Impaqt's guide! I'll update the thread once I've edited the original post with an evoker human FvS template.

Post U9, there's two types of FvS that are both named 'Evokers' by players, but that play quite differently. Both, of course, are fully healing-capable.

There's the classic DC based caster that maximizes Wisdom, and uses spells to incapacitate as well as to do damage - Implosion and Greater Command being central spells of this build. (Of course, with Divine Punishment being one of the most powerful spells in the game, they use it, it's just not the centrepiece of the build). They often invest feats into spell penetration and/or spell DCs, and benefit immensely from one Wizard past life. Edit: These builds might swing a weapon to debuff, but not really to damage - a Cursespewing, Shattermantle or Paralyzing weapon; or a weapon that suppresses a significant regen, like an Acid weapon against Trolls.

Secondly, there's the newer breed of caster that really doesn't optimize DCs at all. They focus on raw damage spells - Divine Punishment, Bladebarrier, (capstone) Searing Light. As these spells do not scale much (if at all) with spell DC, they can use some truly bizarre stat arrays; one of these builds recently achieved the incredible feat of soloing Tower of Despair without mana potions, and they had placed their level-up points into Constitution. Edit: This build probably does not swing a weapon at all beyond elite Harbor quests, and holds a high DR shield in the offhand and a caster stat stick and/or Ardor or Brilliance clickie in the main hand.

Both of these are effective. I'd recommend the Wisdom-based, DC oriented build, as it's just better in the lower levels and offers more variety to the player.


If you want a melee/healing hybrid build, you could take the WF FvS build in my signature, change the stats to make it 28 point friendly (-2 to Str frees 6 build points, making it a 28 pointer), remove WF Brute Fighting entirely, WF Power Attack 1 and 2 (to address the To-Hit issues an ungeared character will face) and WF Healer's Friend 2 and 3 (freeing 23 AP) and invest that into the Angel of Vengeance line and its prereqs. This build has the advantage of extraordinarily high HP and defenses, making it pretty close to indestructible, and has enough To-Hit to function well in a melee role at all levels.
Of course, you might want to tone down the recommended gear.

The only non-WF melee/healer hybrid builds I've ever been happy with are multiclasses with Monk.

[voodoogroves]

Post U9, there's two types of FvS that are both named 'Evokers' by players, but that play quite differently. Both, of course, are fully healing-capable.

There's the classic DC based caster that maximizes Wisdom, and uses spells to incapacitate as well as to do damage - Implosion and Greater Command being central spells of this build. (Of course, with Divine Punishment being one of the most powerful spells in the game, they use it, it's just not the centrepiece of the build). They often invest feats into spell penetration and/or spell DCs, and benefit immensely from one Wizard past life.

Secondly, there's the newer breed of caster that really doesn't optimize DCs at all. They focus on raw damage spells - Divine Punishment, Bladebarrier, (capstone) Searing Light. As these spells do not scale much (if at all) with spell DC, they can use some truly bizarre stat arrays; one of these builds recently achieved the incredible feat of soloing Tower of Despair without mana potions, and they had placed their level-up points into Constitution.

Both of these are effective. I'd recommend the Wisdom-based, DC oriented build, as it's just better in the lower levels and offers more variety to the player.


If you want a melee/healing hybrid build, you could take the WF FvS build in my signature, change the stats to make it 28 point friendly (-2 to Str frees 6 build points, making it a 28 pointer), remove WF Brute Fighting entirely, WF Power Attack 1 and 2 (to address the To-Hit issues an ungeared character will face) and WF Healer's Friend 2 and 3 (freeing 23 AP) and invest that into the Angel of Vengeance line and its prereqs. This build has the advantage of extraordinarily high HP and defenses, making it pretty close to indestructible.
Of course, you might want to tone down the recommended gear.

The only non-WF melee/healer hybrid builds I've ever been happy with are multiclasses with Monk.

Right on Sirgog, that's exactly the mix of 3 I'd suggest as the reference FVS builds right now (pure 20)

(1) WIS-high Evoker (toughness, heighten, quicken, maximize, empower, sf, gsf)
(2) WIS-dumped non-DC caster (toughness, empower, quicken, maximize as the core w/ additional melee or shield mastery 2nd focus)
(3) WF Melee (yours is a great reference w/ the changes suggested)

[Pape_27]

==Spells==

The favored soul doesn't receive the plethora of spells that a cleric has access to, so it's important to know about some of the immediately useful ones upfront.

Spells to Make Enemies Stop Attacking You …

• Command
• Greater Command
• Hold Person
• Symbol of Persuasion
Soundburst


Damage Spells that'll leave a Mark …

• Searing Light
• Blade Barrier
• Cometfall
• Divine Punishment
• Destruction
• Implosion
Harm
Banishment

comments in orange

[BoBach]

Hi,

I'm not sure whether the fvs class is realy a beginners class ...
You need horc/wf for melee capabilites, need at least access to 32pt, must know the trick in the game ...

Even when fvs can be very powerfull, in my opinion it's better (less frustrating) for new players to start with another class (cleric for heals or fighter/pala for melee).

What do you think?

Regards Bo