Changes to paladins?

[Claymorep]

Why drink silver flame pots when your UMD should be good enough to use heal scrolls?

Aren't ,probably, heal scrolls near always a fail if used in the middle of a fight?

[Kinerd]

More appropriately the pally dps is wonderfull against Pit fiends that have 50% fortification, anyway the point is not fortification, but DR in which a pally is superior in hard and absolutely superior in elite (where i feel myself like a god between mortals )

Against a 50% fortification I can't see where the pally is superior considering his boost in dps depends on critical exalted smites (x5) and divine sacrifice (x4) like all other dps builds: Rogue have half of extra damage, Barbarian likes his critical like a pally, so a Kensai or a Blitz or a Monster.

The light damage from Divine Sacrifice, untyped KotC damage, and capstone damage are all unreduced by fortification, giving the paladin an advantage relative to other professions as fortification increases. DR isn't really relevant to TWF because a Cannith weapon's best DPS prefix is going to be Holy either way.

[Ralmeth]

Aren't ,probably, heal scrolls near always a fail if used in the middle of a fight?

No. You just need a good concentration score and a no-fail UMD score.

[Nospheratus]

Aren't ,probably, heal scrolls near always a fail if used in the middle of a fight?

No. You just need a good concentration score and a no-fail UMD score.

That's what Lay on Hands is for

[Claymorep]

The light damage from Divine Sacrifice, untyped KotC damage, and capstone damage are all unreduced by fortification, giving the paladin an advantage relative to other professions as fortification increases.

Kinerd, probably we don't understand each other and probably my english is different from what I want to say. A pally adds all extra damage to all evil (1d6 holy) and evil outsiders/undeads (2d6 light), 4d6 kotc pre (bane damage, not tectnically untyped damage), 3d6 tod set (another bane damage) and Divine sacrifice is a light damage. Ok these are the axioms. But let's do an example considering same weapon for example an esos:

A barbarian that do 100 damage
A pally that do 50 damage + 50 damage from extras

If we are fighting a lower devil like an Orthon (dr silver or good) a barbarian do 100 damage and pally do 100 damage, but barbarian have a better use of those damage as his criticals are better
barbarian do 300
pally do 200 (50x3 + 50)

We don't considerer special criticals like exalted smites and divine sacrifice that are compensated by barbarians extra critical power.

If we are fighting a greater devil like a Pit fiend (hard so dr 25 silver + good) a
barbarian do 75 damage and the
pally continue to do 100 damage as he is unaffected by dr (silver + good),
so considering a not fortified critical a barbarian do 275 (as dr apply after full damage)
pally do 200
If a fortified critical a
barbarian do 75
and pally continue to do 100 (little advantage for the pally in this case)

So I'm ok with You about increase in advantage when fortification increase but that advantage is not so evident as it applies only on fortified criticals.

DR isn't really relevant to TWF because a Cannith weapon's best DPS prefix is going to be Holy either way.

Ok but we know very well about cannith investment after this patch and if we consider a 2wf the above example is worst because a while an esos is a great weapon for 2hf but subject to dr in most circustances by no-pallies, a 2wf pally have no real advantage against a 2wf no-pally (kensai, tempest, blitz, monster) that can bypass dr with the same weapon as the pally but they have something more like criticals, extra attacks and better hit bonus (a problem for 2wf pallies...) etc.

But if we don't consider new crafting and probably we should not consider it as Devs were clear when they said that a new crafted weapon have to be below a min2 except vs specific creatures and considering a min2 is good vs those bosses/mobs that I specified before seems to me a bit over their ideas as we need only silver and cold iron weapons.

What I'm saying is that all pallyes advantages are easily reached by other classes as the game expand and this is the reason a pally should have something more, not a lot, but something more is due.

As I play only endgame content and noone will never change my idea to play a pally as main I feel a bit frustrated as everithing new gives advantages or ideas to other classes and the pally continue to stay at the start line (except the little advantage for pallyes as they introduced fvs pre that gives pallies and monks something more than other classes).

[testing1234]

from my own selfish view of not playing a paladin id rather they focus on bringing in more PrE for other classes that only have 1.
seeing as more then 1 class have spent over a 1 year without any PrE dont feel the paladin screams instant fix

but ill admit im partial to the otherside then most in this thread and less familiar with the current state of the class.

[Claymorep]

No. You just need a good concentration score and a no-fail UMD score.

From Your signnature is clear that You know pallies so I don't think to explain pallies way of playing, but considering a pally need umd, balance, intimidate and 2 points in tumble a high concentration is not the first skill to max and no room in pally equipment for +15 concentration item.
Moreover some consideration have to be done regarding:
A heal scroll is low in casting (so loss of dps or defence as You play mainly as tank)
When You need a scroll under fight is in epics or under raid bosses and those kisses are a bit too much for a concentration success...

That's what Lay on Hands is for

There is Unyelding sovereignty too if we want to be complete (even if not so fast in usage)
Lay on hands is wonderfull and allows a pally to save a lot of near wipe situations mainly in tod, vod and hox and why not to mention to stay under the dragon breath in Evon6 to continue to dps? what about under queen in Eadq1 or in Echrono? in 3rd island if pug bard and/or healer is dead? and a lot of others wrong situations.

I love Lay as it is a great weapon in a moderately skilled player hands but You have only 4 (5 if Dos) and aren't enought if something start to go wrong.

Clearly I'm not builded as tank so I take more damage considering I continue to dps (except under horoth when sully comes) but I play as tank role in 3/4 quests where a tank is necessary due to the lack of real tanks on my server... (and we don't have repopulation programs too, so They will be extinct very soon ;( ) considering the direction of max dps the game is going...

[Stitch78]

Lot of good ideas buried in this thread. I'm on board for:

1) an increase in Aura Benefits, preferably one that scales up with levels. Currently, the aura gets no free scaling after level 3. That is no longer WAI for a 20-level game. The defensive benefits should be better, without an AP investment (see below). Maybe a +3 divine or +5 luck bonus to saves and skills at level 20? Discount to spell point cost of divine and light-based spells? And 5% stacking healing amp? People should WANT a pally around at all times. I would not overlap with bard spell benefits too much/at all though.

2) decreased cost for some Enhancement lines. Almost no paladin can invest in improving his/her aura because the pre-reqs for the PrE lines are so expensive. Level 4 of Exhaulted Smite alone is 10AP.

3) PrE aura and active abilities benefits. I think 1d6 passive damage might be a bit much, maybe 1d4. But the active component of the KotC is not hotbarred by most (if any) pallies. Even if it was a straight Banishment (TOD style) that sent any outsider back to its native plane, it would not be hotbarred (unless it was AoE). Just build it in as a passive component: a paladin has a 2-3% chance on any hit to banish an extra-planar creature.

[Ralmeth]

From Your signnature is clear that You know pallies so I don't think to explain pallies way of playing, but considering a pally need umd, balance, intimidate and 2 points in tumble a high concentration is not the first skill to max and no room in pally equipment for +15 concentration item.
Moreover some consideration have to be done regarding:
A heal scroll is low in casting (so loss of dps or defence as You play mainly as tank)
When You need a scroll under fight is in epics or under raid bosses and those kisses are a bit too much for a concentration success...

You wouldn't use heal scrolls if you're main tanking against a raid boss or you're in epics (hopefully you have a dedicated healer with you in these situations), but they can work fairly well in other combat situations. The trick is to tumble away once or twice, pulling out your best shield, shield block and cast your heal scroll. It does have a long casting time, so you may get a few attacks against you but if you maxed out points to concentration and you tumbled away this works. I used this technique all the time on my Pally Khorbyn. It's certainly not the end-all-be-all of self healing and I always felt it leaves a bit to be desired, but it does work in a pinch. Most notably it's helpful when you're taking so much damage that your 4-5 LOH aren't enough.

Note that I wouldn't do this in a DPS focused Pally as you won't have the skill points or the AC to avoid getting hit, but on a DoS tank you should have a higher intelligence which should give you the extra 1 skill point per level for concentration and you should hopefully have a high enough AC to avoid some hits.

[Claymorep]

You wouldn't use heal scrolls if you're main tanking against a raid boss or you're in epics (hopefully you have a dedicated healer with you in these situations), but they can work fairly well in other combat situations.

And this is the point We were speaking. You are arguing of the efficacy on this way of questing and You are telling that when it is needed You can't do it... We were saying that with real selfhealer capability (I intend a no fail cure) a similar guy can sustain a major fight and even with a healer (I'm not mad enoght to risk a wipe and do all myself without a healer, but to cover a little hole in healer attention or error). Noone have problems in using scrolls between a fight and another and seen a tons of times casters using them in extreme situations (like kiting shadows in tod or other epics situations) but they are not tank, they have to run.

It's certainly not the end-all-be-all of self healing and I always felt it leaves a bit to be desired, but it does work in a pinch. Most notably it's helpful when you're taking so much damage that your 4-5 LOH aren't enough.

What I was saying...
Ralmeth, don't take it for a personal attack, but it's obvious that You have no real experience of epics or do it sometimes (sometimes with problems and sometimes without problems and probably depends on caster, healer, cc from a bard or massive dps). If I remember well what one of the maximum ac guy of the game wrote to my guildleader that wanted to create an ac build for epics these were his numbers:
under 70/71 -> like to have ooze ac vs everithing
70-80 -> a good ac and mobs miss You sometimes (something equivalent a blur but stack)
80-90 -> good ac vs mobs
90-100 -> reached a nice number and some bosses start to miss You
100-115 -> this is a desiderable ac vs bosses
115 -> ok stand still, use a weight on your blocking key and return when all done...

Remember that epic mechanics to hit from mobs are a bit different as they roll normally and then subtract 1d20 from their to hit, so can be possible that they miss You with a low roll with the lower attack of their chain and then rolled hight on the "epic mechanic" roll. So it is possible to be missed with an ac of 60 and can be possible to never be missed with a 90 ac

If we are here to say what a pally can do and what he can't do it is to see if it is efficient and of some efficacy in end-game (and endgame is no more shorud or tod for some mechanics since epics come out, so, over a year) and if the pally have to be relegated to a second choice dps and nothing more, (sarcasm on) probably (sarcasm off) He need some attention from developers.

The pally at the state of the game risk to be like a bard of near a year ago during exp grouping -> hard to be inserted in pugs becuse of no real use. Ok we discussed about 3 (three) PRE from the start of lvl 20 cap, but those PRE are outdated (a good Dos till some monthes ago, now its role is relegated to only some situations in some quests... a usless HotD good "sometimes" during exp, but to be changed with a fortunately good, but usless before lvl 17, for end-game KotC as soon as end-game quests are outsiders focus adventures).
Now that a lot of players have end-game gear and builded end-game alts I continue to feel frustrated to see another dps that do 5% more damage vs those externals vs which I have to be the "perfect guy" and 25% more those others... Can't have enought hp to compete with barbarian or kensai and blitz, can't have evasion unless I chose to lower a bit more my dps, and my selfheal capability is put in question when a barbarian use a silver flame potion and continue to hit due to the fact that a -10 for him is nothing.

When I see a lot of end-game pally players that reincarnats in fighters or barbarians I start to think and this is not so good...

Ps. The point of view of a pally, nothing more.