Changes to paladins?

[CanuckWisdom]

The suggested aura bonuses sound nice. Even if its a 1 AP buy after taking the 2nd tier PRE for example.

And lowering the cost of a couple of the enhancements for Paladins would go a long way.

Some of my characters, I almost get lost wondering where I should spend all these AP for the best results. On my paladin I have never felt that way, I feel as though as just basic stuff I should have I cant even afford all of. Then again maybe its just that so many of their enhancement options are good choices.

Lowering the cost of extra smites, and the pre-req costs for the PRE's would be a great way to do it. The faith line requirements for the third tier are way more expensive than I would like. I would never spend that many AP on them if they didnt lead to the PRE, unless I was... longsword spec'd.

[Dartwick]

I think Palys might need a small across the board improvement, but the main thing they need is a significant buff to HotD, as in damage improvements along the lines of KotC.

[elraido]

HotD don't need any adjustment to them. They need to create high level undead for them the thrive in. Plain and simple. Let us go to the realm of the dead already!
ToD ring set: 3d6
Capstone: 3d6
GS Trip Pos khopesh or maul: Holy 2d6, Pure good 1d6, Good blast 4d6, Good burst 4d6, disruption 4d6
HotD: destroying undead instantly on a natural 20 followed by a critical hit confirmation, Will DC: 30 partial, deals Light damage to targets immune to instant destruction effects or save.


Basically 21d6 points of damage on most swings...that isn't including base damage...with the ability to vorpal undead or do even more damage if they save. Then throw on the neg level immunity, greater restore for free etc. It isn't under powered. There just is no high level content for it to shine.

[Hobgoblin]

HotD don't need any adjustment to them. They need to create high level undead for them the thrive in. Plain and simple. Let us go to the realm of the dead already!
ToD ring set: 3d6
Capstone: 3d6
GS Trip Pos khopesh or maul: Holy 2d6, Pure good 1d6, Good blast 4d6, Good burst 4d6, disruption 4d6
HotD: destroying undead instantly on a natural 20 followed by a critical hit confirmation, Will DC: 30 partial, deals Light damage to targets immune to instant destruction effects or save.


Basically 21d6 points of damage on most swings...that isn't including base damage...with the ability to vorpal undead or do even more damage if they save. Then throw on the neg level immunity, greater restore for free etc. It isn't under powered. There just is no high level content for it to shine.

i thought the tod set didnt deal damage to undead only outsiders

hob

[elraido]

i thought the tod set didnt deal damage to undead only outsiders

hob

Odd...they aren't coming up now. Pics are of the Ann Velsing band and belt. When equiped and you are a HotD III, you gain damage vs undead.

[Arkat]

Why do people think paladins with high ac can't do any dps?

Not only can they DPS, they can, if they're a DoS, generate more hate than any other class in the game. This means they can hold agro against pretty much anyone.

[mtoman1980]

@hob I think he is referring to the Ann Velsing's Set, which adds damage to undead if you also have the HotD 3 PRE. Lorinthor's set adds dmg to outsiders if you have KotC 3.

@elraido The problem with what you have listed (and the HotD PRE in general), is that only one thing is unique to the PRE, and in fact that is based on acquiring specific gear (the ToD set). The capstone is available to any pure pally regardless of build. The instant kill vs undead is also available on any trip positive weapon. And the only added damage is from items, not the PRE itself. The major benefits from the HotD have absolutely 0 to do with actually killing undead. If they actually made turn undead worthwhile, all the added levels and hit dice worth of turned undead might be worth something. But currently, the only effects I consider useful from HotD are the healing amp, and the energy drain immunity (really only useful vs beholders anyway).

[elraido]

@hob I think he is referring to the Ann Velsing's Set, which adds damage to undead if you also have the HotD 3 PRE. Lorinthor's set adds dmg to outsiders if you have KotC 3.

@elraido The problem with what you have listed (and the HotD PRE in general), is that only one thing is unique to the PRE, and in fact that is based on acquiring specific gear (the ToD set). The capstone is available to any pure pally regardless of build. The instant kill vs undead is also available on any trip positive weapon. And the only added damage is from items, not the PRE itself. The major benefits from the HotD have absolutely 0 to do with actually killing undead. If they actually made turn undead worthwhile, all the added levels and hit dice worth of turned undead might be worth something. But currently, the only effects I consider useful from HotD are the healing amp, and the energy drain immunity (really only useful vs beholders anyway).

You have to remember that the instant kill, while it might be available on any disruption weapon, you also have to factor in the vorpal stike will either kill it outright or do a good amount of light damage on it. It is basically two way to insta-kill undead. You have the 5% from the disruption on them rolling a 1 and the 5% from the vorpal strike.

You can also take what you said and say that about KotC. They "only get" 4d6 points of damage against outsiders with some rather unremarkable bonus features. It isn't until you start adding int he ToD set, capstone etc that it really starts to get good.

[mtoman1980]

I don't suppose you have the actual damage amount on a failed instant kill do you? And for that matter, how often it is resisted? I'm curious, since the wiki doesn't specify.

As far as the KotC build, you also get +4 hit on EO, which is pretty big considering the current high AC mobs in the game.

I agree a large part of the HotD being pretty useless at high levels is lack of undead content. But honestly, I can't say that I would respec my 2nd life pally into a HotD even if they released a bunch of new undead content (of course that might change based on how effective the instant kill effect at t3 of the PRE actually is). I'd much rather see a static damage increase to actually separate paladin dps from <insert other melee dps class> on undead mobs.

Currently, I see people using HotD as a 6 pally splash in tank builds, and as a leveling PRE. If that's what the devs want it designed as, that's fine with me (I kind of look at sorc fire savant the same way). But if they want it to be a viable end game PRE, then it needs to be tweaked.

[eulogy098]

My ideas for a small tweak to paladins can be found in the suggestion section

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http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=328825






I basically think that rank 1 of KOTC should work on all non-good enemies, rank 2 should work on all evil enemies and rank 3 should work on evil outsider. No change in damage done to Evil outsiders but it would allow one to do 2d6 damage to anything Evil and 1d6 damage to anything that isnt Good.

[elraido]

My ideas for a small tweak to paladins can be found in the suggestion section

\/

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=328825

I basically think that rank 1 of KOTC should work on all non-good enemies, rank 2 should work on all evil enemies and rank 3 should work on evil outsider. No change in damage done to Evil outsiders but it would allow one to do 2d6 damage to anything Evil and 1d6 damage to anything that isnt Good.

Not a good idea. You are basically giving the capstone away for a level 18 character (just with out the pure good to it)

I can't remember off the top of my head, how much damage the save on the vorpal effect is. I want to say something like 30d6 points. Don't quote me, but I think I remember it being something like that. The devs call it a Radiant Blast effect, like the maybar handwraps, but I don't think it does as much damage.

[Hobgoblin]

ty was thinking only of the kotc set

hob

[Kinerd]

That "recently" in your affermation takes me to think about a fvs new Angel of vengeance in party that decrease fortification, but anyway...

It was Cannith Crafting that got me thinking about it.

When we consider dps test we have to keep in mind the situational cases. For example a pally is top dps in 24 seconds fight where he can land 12 exalted smites followed by 12 DS (infact no fight vs Harry in shroud), a barbarian is well rounded dps as he is in rage (always considering the bug and 90% of time after they solve it), a kensai or blitz is top dps as long as he uses haste boosts (considering 11-12 of them and cooldown of 30 seconds is near always except in first wave of EDA or along EADQ1). Infact we always test aggro/dps managment on Nytirios in Tod as we have a perfect dummy to be beaten like a pinata and no risks of wipe as we stole aggro each other (considering all dps with claw set and no more tricks the aggro is in pally hand in first 15 seconds than passes to kensai or blitz till the end except some rare cases).

The time period I used was 5 minutes. It's the default in The Spreadsheet, and it seems pretty generalizable to me for this case.

-You said well, a niche... but even in that case not superior.
I did some personal experience and I share:
My pally is not full dps builded (human, ds1 and miss 2 extra str from +4 tome and helm of red dragon and preferred gs mana/torc as necklace and a cha ring instead of a kyosho set) but had the opportunity to do some tests vs a same builded pally (but wf, ds 3 and the set I mentioned) and his dps is superior to mine of about 1,1% at the cost of selfhealing capabilityes and some other minor lacks. And with my pally I can assure without any doubt that top dps geared classes do near 10% more dps than me vs evil outsiders (confronted many times in EDA) except in gb where I'm superior infact my pally was selected as dps in 2 of 3 EDA world record attempt (and all 3 solved in 24 minutes...).

I want to reiterate that my point specifically referred to 50 fortification devil bosses. You'll get no argument from me that paladins fall behind against trash, even evil outsider trash.

-Fortunately all endgame massive played quests/raid are well suited for a kotc pally, but what about Red fens and Von? And what about if they really change Carnival, Red fens, Sentinels items that need a good portion of questing time to reach those items? If there is an open lfm do you expect the leader prefers me or another type of dps?

It's certainly true that a paladin's DPS is worse in some areas, but as you pointed out paladins are (by far) the best of the frontline melees at self-healing. Paladins have a fairly wide array of odd, niche superiorities, there has to be a trade-off for that flexibility somewhere.

[Claymorep]

I want to reiterate that my point specifically referred to 50 fortification devil bosses.

More appropriately the pally dps is wonderfull against Pit fiends that have 50% fortification, anyway the point is not fortification, but DR in which a pally is superior in hard and absolutely superior in elite (where i feel myself like a god between mortals )

Against a 50% fortification I can't see where the pally is superior considering his boost in dps depends on critical exalted smites (x5) and divine sacrifice (x4) like all other dps builds: Rogue have half of extra damage, Barbarian likes his critical like a pally, so a Kensai or a Blitz or a Monster.

I thought that You were pointing vs 50% fortification bosses because a fvs debuff have 2 big powers vs a Pit fiend like boss (only 1 agaisnt others tipe of bosses). First he give a reduction in fortification (and all dps are happy here), last he increase vulnerability vs fire (no need as he is immune to fire), light (that a pally with capstone don't lack considering 2d6 extra damage vs evil outsiders and undead and divine sacrifices) and alignement type (like extra 1d6 vs evil guys). We can mention 2d6 holy from crafted weapon, lit2 or min2 but that extra vulnerability affect a pally like others dps.
I love to have a fvs in party and he uses champion on tank (and I go mad like a chupacabra when I see he don't nominate a champion when he is playing only as healer or as dps from behind...)

Probably my english don't allow me to understand your point, but I'd like to share my experience with calcs and tests (as long as my 6 year experience with pally as main) about my preferred class and try don't see anymore lol based pally builds like tons that I see wandering in pugs without a real role or any efficacy.

[svinja]

I think paly's don't need much tweaking, except for the costs of their APs. Paly's are starved on all areas of a character:
- Ability scores - MAD
- Feats
- Enhancements - because most are too expensive

Maybe that is why it's hard to build them properly...


I would tweak the HotD though. Their enhancements are nice, but they aren't really that much of hunters of the dead. They should gain, besides the current, bonuses to their attacks/damage just like the KotC but against undead.

If the costs of some enhancements were reduced they would make most paladins more versatile. At the moment you can select all or most of the enhancements in regards to what you want do to, but not much more.

I would start by reducing the cost of:
- Extra smite to 1/1/1/1
- Aura enhancements to 1/2/2/2 or even 1/1/1/1 but the later seems a bit too much (i don't think there have been any deviations from AP costs with the evolutions 1/1/1/1, 1/2/3/4 or 2/4/6, but maybe it's a good time to start)

What other options would paladins have to use their APs in?
- Extra turns - for their abilities
- Some healing enhancements
- LoH abilities like raise dead
- Extra LoH uses
- Other special abilities, like the different faith enhancements (Lord of the blades, silver flame, etc.)

This means (even) more versatility for paladins, but considering their insane requirements to start with, I believe it would be appropriate.

I think improving the aura according to the type of paladin would be a nice addition. The aura of a DoS paladin is already improved, but the suggested exceptional +10% to fortification sounds appropriate as an addition.

I agree that extra smiting should be 1/1/1/1. The auras are ok I think, as they are actually powerful (at least some of them).

Also, higher tiers of divine sacrifice need work. Tier 1 is just right. Tiers 2 and 3 are almost worthless. They wouldn't even be worth it if they cost 1 AP each and had no requirements. A bit over 2 DPS for 2/3 AP, DPS that doesn't scale with crit profile or attack speed. Divine sacrifice 2 and 3 should either increase crit multiplier (or threat range) further, decrease cooldown by 1 second per tier, or different tiers should be on separate cooldowns (like with monk abilities). Or simply make additional tiers add a LOT more light damage. Not 2x what they add now, far more than that. It is not damage on every hit, it is damage every 3 seconds. 7 damage every 3 seconds is a complete joke.

This ability is a good one to buff because 1) the higher tiers are indeed terrible 2) it is not specialized damage, and paladins don't need more "ideal situation" DPS, but more reliable DPS.

But I wouldn't be surprised if instead, Turbine eventually gave paladins even more/better ways to fight evil outsiders/undead. Pushing flavor too far is not a good thing. :/

[Claymorep]

I agree that extra smiting should be 1/1/1/1. The auras are ok I think, as they are actually powerful (at least some of them).

Also, higher tiers of divine sacrifice need work. Tier 1 is just right. Tiers 2 and 3 are almost worthless. They wouldn't even be worth it if they cost 1 AP each and had no requirements. A bit over 2 DPS for 2/3 AP, DPS that doesn't scale with crit profile or attack speed. Divine sacrifice 2 and 3 should either increase crit multiplier (or threat range) further, decrease cooldown by 1 second per tier, or different tiers should be on separate cooldowns (like with monk abilities). Or simply make additional tiers add a LOT more light damage. Not 2x what they add now, far more than that. It is not damage on every hit, it is damage every 3 seconds. 7 damage every 3 seconds is a complete joke.

This ability is a good one to buff because 1) the higher tiers are indeed terrible 2) it is not specialized damage, and paladins don't need more "ideal situation" DPS, but more reliable DPS.

But I wouldn't be surprised if instead, Turbine eventually gave paladins even more/better ways to fight evil outsiders/undead. Pushing flavor too far is not a good thing. :/

I agree too to both consideration. The fact is that they took pally from pen and paper and put it into ddo without great changes and when the pally have (for them) a great power like Divine might they changed pen and paper version. So, considering a well balanced translation from pen and paper should be that Smites and DS have to be applied for 6 seconds and not only to a single attack (or something similar).

Anyway Sirgog created a very good tread in which all these considerations created a very nice compendium of these ideas near 6 monthes ago but it's clear that devs (even if they read it very carefully) are completly blind to such changes.
Just an example:
Lorinthor set gives a super powerfull 22 spell resistance... Now can someone tell me where can be of any use such a great power where a minimum lvl 18 item that can be found in lvl 19 quest or level 20 raid where also in a lvl 17 quest the last of weak mob can bypass that spell resistance with a roll of 1?
And what about a so powerfull +1 insight bonus to ac? Even if they do a sort of rebalancing to armor class a +1 bonus is nothing... Even a SR 32 or a +4 insight don't means nothing, but at least don't sound like a joke...

[goodoldxelos]

Glad i got a conversation started on this topic.

For HOTD, was thinking they should have more immunities; a very large one (capstone perhaps) would be stat damage immunity. This would give them the ability to drink silver flame pots with no penalty which would be pretty awesome at end game and would make it viable and actually different than having WF innate immunities.

Perhaps for kotc make them immune to certain things that evil outsiders use like the healing curse.

[Nospheratus]

This would give them the ability to drink silver flame pots with no penalty

Interesting suggestion! But only allow this if they have the silver flame faith enhancements.

[Ralmeth]

Glad i got a conversation started on this topic.

For HOTD, was thinking they should have more immunities; a very large one (capstone perhaps) would be stat damage immunity. This would give them the ability to drink silver flame pots with no penalty which would be pretty awesome at end game and would make it viable and actually different than having WF innate immunities.

Perhaps for kotc make them immune to certain things that evil outsiders use like the healing curse.

If anyone gets immunity to healing curse it should be a DoS tank (as well as stalwart defenders). Then it could be generally accepted for a Defender to tank Suulu and we could do away with the "must have a WF" mentallity that prevents Defenders from tanking in one of the few roles where you need a real tank.

As for making Pally's more desirable in end game (i.e. epics), what if one of the affects on Pally's auras would add a + to hit that included an enhancement line could be added to increase the + to hit just like bulwark and resistance of good? This way KoTC and HoTD would have a real use for their aura and I would surmise Pallys would be more desired in epics.

[elraido]

Glad i got a conversation started on this topic.

For HOTD, was thinking they should have more immunities; a very large one (capstone perhaps) would be stat damage immunity. This would give them the ability to drink silver flame pots with no penalty which would be pretty awesome at end game and would make it viable and actually different than having WF innate immunities.

Perhaps for kotc make them immune to certain things that evil outsiders use like the healing curse.

Why drink silver flame pots when your UMD should be good enough to use heal scrolls?