Changes to paladins?

[goodoldxelos]

Curious if there was going to be any changes to paladins especially the prestige classes.

A few points first, censure demons is basically useless (specifically high level content); it would be nice to see a powersurge like ability akin to that of a kensai; maybe 50-100% more damage than standard but, works against evil outsiders only.

Also, the paladin capstone is nice but the augment crystals albeit annoying to continue to farm negates it. And when a piece of gear negates a class specific ability it seem unbalanced; considering how much more dps a barb, fighter/blitz do.

Just some thoughts

[Balkas]

Don't forget the the Pally Capstone adds 1d6 Good and 2d6 against Evil Outsiders.

I really don't think that Pallies need a DPS boost; I have enough of an issue grabbing aggro as is.

Don't discount the fact that Paladins are much more self sufficient than your average Barbarian or Fighter.

[Alternative]

Paladin prestiges could really use a bit of twinking to make them more relevant for the current end game. Also it would be nice to see some changes for enhancement costs and requirements, and not just for paladins but for characters generally. New things are added to the game but we still have the same 80AP. I'd like to see something similar that's been done to damage spell lines.

Another thing that would make paladins more welcome in parties would be improving their aura so that it gives the party members something useful, rather than minor ac or saves boost which no paladin can afford anyway. The aura is a specific paladin feature, pretty much like bard songs, and imo it's worth improving.

Example I've been thinking about

Kotc aura - all party members receive lesser fiendslaying 1d6 damage against EO and +2 to saves against EO
Hotd aura - all party members receive 1d6 extra damage against undead and 5% stacking healing amp
DoS aura - all party members receive exceptional 10% to fortification

[Balkas]

At least we have 3 tiers of all our PrEs :-)

It's pretty ridiculous that all the classes don't have all of their PrEs fully fleshed out yet, but I guess that subject is neither here nor there.

[Claymorep]

At least we have 3 tiers of all our PrEs :-)

It's pretty ridiculous that all the classes don't have all of their PrEs fully fleshed out yet, but I guess that subject is neither here nor there.

Sincerely I don't understand if this is more good or bad.
Yeah, we have 3 pre, but we have:

Hunter of the dead: Situational usefull and completely useless in endgame...
Defender of Syberis: A choice, but no real use of it at the state of the game...
Knight of the chalice: The only usefull and anyway situational of 3 pre for pallies, but I fear something epic or endgame without evil outsiders...

Mages have 2 good pre (archmages and pale masters), Sorceres have 4 very good (savants to choose the style), Monks have 2 nicely (light and dark), Rangers have 2 and soon a third (tempest, AA and deepwood sniper), Fighters have 1 good and 1 not so much like DoS for pallies (kensai and Stalwart), Barbarians only 1 (berserker), Bards have 2 nice and 1 useless (warchanter, spellsinger and virtuoso) Rogue lack a bit as they have only (assasin) and Favored have a very nice one and another coming soon expected to be very nice (Angel and Holy avenger).
Personally I don't think pallies lack PRE, but those We have are a bit "outdated"...

Considering all the pre they was able to choose when Amrath come out they chosed only situational pre instead of a more generalist pally...

Moreover pally dps is very low if we confront with another dps class (barbarian, fighter and ranger) but is lower even vs evil outsiders and this lack a bit for a pally lover. To discover that with final epic gear Your dps is lower than other classes not builded against outsiders as personal enemy as a pally is a bit frustrating...

Finally the pally way of life is a very hard and not exactly a relaxing one as You have to continue clicking on 5-6 abilities to stay behind other dps. Ok we have better survavibility, but near mitigated by hp of fighters and barbarians...

I don't want to drama about pallies but a better choice in pally selection for PRE was suggested or at least to have a 5% more dps than other classes vs those hated enemies as it is situational is a must have in my opinion instead of 10% less dps than barbarians and kensai.

[Mubjon]

Sincerely I don't understand if this is more good or bad.
Yeah, we have 3 pre, but we have:

Hunter of the dead: Situational usefull and completely useless in endgame...
Defender of Syberis: A choice, but no real use of it at the state of the game...
Knight of the chalice: The only usefull and anyway situational of 3 pre for pallies, but I fear something epic or endgame without evil outsiders...

Mages have 2 good pre (archmages and pale masters), Sorceres have 4 very good (savants to choose the style), Monks have 2 nicely (light and dark), Rangers have 2 and soon a third (tempest, AA and deepwood sniper), Fighters have 1 good and 1 not so much like DoS for pallies (kensai and Stalwart), Barbarians only 1 (berserker), Bards have 2 nice and 1 useless (warchanter, spellsinger and virtuoso) Rogue lack a bit as they have only (assasin) and Favored have a very nice one and another coming soon expected to be very nice (Angel and Holy avenger).
Personally I don't think pallies lack PRE, but those We have are a bit "outdated"...

Considering all the pre they was able to choose when Amrath come out they chosed only situational pre instead of a more generalist pally...

Moreover pally dps is very low if we confront with another dps class (barbarian, fighter and ranger) but is lower even vs evil outsiders and this lack a bit for a pally lover. To discover that with final epic gear Your dps is lower than other classes not builded against outsiders as personal enemy as a pally is a bit frustrating...

Finally the pally way of life is a very hard and not exactly a relaxing one as You have to continue clicking on 5-6 abilities to stay behind other dps. Ok we have better survavibility, but near mitigated by hp of fighters and barbarians...

I don't want to drama about pallies but a better choice in pally selection for PRE was suggested or at least to have a 5% more dps than other classes vs those hated enemies as it is situational is a must have in my opinion instead of 10% less dps than barbarians and kensai.

You forgot the clerics that have only 1 PrE.

[KreepyKritter]

Honestly, I think half the problem with Pallys is the fact that most of the people who run them have no idea how to build them...

Myself included, though that hasn't stopped me from trying.

[Asmodeus451]

suggestions i like:

- PrE specific Auras. Great idea. In PnP Pally Auras are VERY useful, lets make one of the core specialties of the class relevant in DDO.

- more funtionality from PrEs. as it stands right now Pallys only really have 1 viable option (if not an AC build that is)

MY suggestion: the Censure Demons ability granted by KotC II is HIGHLY useful in the few areas/quests that Demons are encountered. I would Sugest adding a seperate ability (either also at KotC II or @ KotC III) of Censure Devils. Both would use Turn attempts, and Censure Devils would have the same DC as Censure Demons (DC: 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Modifier)

Any Paladin could EASILY get their DC for this into the high 30s to low 40s

[Rubiconn]

Honestly, I think half the problem with Pallys is the fact that most of the people who run them have no idea how to build them...

This is very true which makes people very leery of pally's in end game pugs. I have TR'd once to fix issues, found somemore and will TR again after gathering some gear. It seems Pally's are always a work in progress and choices must be made.

I would like to see some enhancement adjustments but I havent put too much thought into exactly what can be adjusted.

[Noobian]

DoS:
Dragon Mark and enhancement based feat purchase through the PRE (Draconic PRE yes?). Perhaps members of this order gain access to Dragon Marks (awaken racial specific DMs only) through enhancement purchases. House Deneith sponsors the Order of the Draconic Star, Paladin DoS' featuring the House D dragon mark...tanks extraordinaire ;-)

HotD:
Working closely with the Silver Flame members of this order get a slightly expanded spell casting list favoring healing spells (CSWs and CCW?) and the ability to use their LoHs offensively. The Silver Flame's Order of the Seeking Light is famed for rooting out Necromantic horrors of all sorts.

KotC:
Perhaps the order works closely with the Twelive battling extra-planar menaces gaining slightly expanded spell casting featuring arcane based spells (Jump, False Life, etc...). The Twelve has begun employing the Sovereign Host's Order of the Gate in an attempt to stymy Shavarath's influences on Eberron.

...eh just some random thoughts.

[Kinerd]

When I looked at 50 fort devil bosses recently, I found that paladins do the best TWF damage of the pure classes (outside of rogues), and with proper gear more than any THF build. A niche DPS superiority, Lay on Hands, saves, and immunities seems like a pretty well-set-up class to me.

[Khellendros13]

Paladin prestiges could really use a bit of twinking to make them more relevant for the current end game. Also it would be nice to see some changes for enhancement costs and requirements, and not just for paladins but for characters generally. New things are added to the game but we still have the same 80AP. I'd like to see something similar that's been done to damage spell lines.

Another thing that would make paladins more welcome in parties would be improving their aura so that it gives the party members something useful, rather than minor ac or saves boost which no paladin can afford anyway. The aura is a specific paladin feature, pretty much like bard songs, and imo it's worth improving.

Example I've been thinking about

Kotc aura - all party members receive lesser fiendslaying 1d6 damage against EO and +2 to saves against EO
Hotd aura - all party members receive 1d6 extra damage against undead and 5% stacking healing amp
DoS aura - all party members receive exceptional 10% to fortification

I like this idea.

From my experience playing a Pally and playing with Pally's, they are one of the hardest classes to build well. Trying to decide if Epic Claw set is worth changing my gear layout.

No one ever considers how much dps keeping a tank up with a remove curse and 2x loh saves/adds though...

[Claymorep]

Paladin prestiges could really use a bit of twinking to make them more relevant for the current end game. Also it would be nice to see some changes for enhancement costs and requirements, and not just for paladins but for characters generally. New things are added to the game but we still have the same 80AP. I'd like to see something similar that's been done to damage spell lines.

Another thing that would make paladins more welcome in parties would be improving their aura so that it gives the party members something useful, rather than minor ac or saves boost which no paladin can afford anyway. The aura is a specific paladin feature, pretty much like bard songs, and imo it's worth improving.

Example I've been thinking about

Kotc aura - all party members receive lesser fiendslaying 1d6 damage against EO and +2 to saves against EO
Hotd aura - all party members receive 1d6 extra damage against undead and 5% stacking healing amp
DoS aura - all party members receive exceptional 10% to fortification

I like too something like this, probably a bit more study behind, but I like the idea of a more usefull aura.

Honestly, I think half the problem with Pallys is the fact that most of the people who run them have no idea how to build them...

Myself included, though that hasn't stopped me from trying.

Yes and no. I think like You that a lot of pally aren't correctly builded, but there are a lot of good players than need a very high investment in pally equipment and tr to be of some real efficacy in endgame. So a new lvl 20 pally can't play epics if not a lot of equipment while a fighter or barbarian are so simple that even without super equipment You know very well what they can do.

When I looked at 50 fort devil bosses recently, I found that paladins do the best TWF damage of the pure classes (outside of rogues), and with proper gear more than any THF build. A niche DPS superiority, Lay on Hands, saves, and immunities seems like a pretty well-set-up class to me.

That "recently" in your affermation takes me to think about a fvs new Angel of vengeance in party that decrease fortification, but anyway...

Not exactly of the same opinion. This point need so much effort to be perfectly discussed and so much subcases that I don't think this is the site, but triing to summarize...
From dps calculator and tests (only dps builded and top geared dps classes considering esos for 2hf and 2lit 2 kopeshes for 2wf).

-All 2 wf dps classes do more dps than 2hf except barbarians (a lot in case of fighter and not to consider 2hf rogue or ranger)

-A 2wf do about 1% more dps than a 2hf pure pally. This is due to the fact that pally extra damage apply to gb too (infact 2hf pally twitching have a lower dps than not-twitching). Moreover 2wf more damage is calculated vs a single mob (like in the case of a fight vs a boss) but it's not so rare for a well played pally to land devasting gbs on more than 1 extra mob.

-When we consider dps test we have to keep in mind the situational cases. For example a pally is top dps in 24 seconds fight where he can land 12 exalted smites followed by 12 DS (infact no fight vs Harry in shroud), a barbarian is well rounded dps as he is in rage (always considering the bug and 90% of time after they solve it), a kensai or blitz is top dps as long as he uses haste boosts (considering 11-12 of them and cooldown of 30 seconds is near always except in first wave of EDA or along EADQ1). Infact we always test aggro/dps managment on Nytirios in Tod as we have a perfect dummy to be beaten like a pinata and no risks of wipe as we stole aggro each other (considering all dps with claw set and no more tricks the aggro is in pally hand in first 15 seconds than passes to kensai or blitz till the end except some rare cases).

-You said well, a niche... but even in that case not superior.
I did some personal experience and I share:
My pally is not full dps builded (human, ds1 and miss 2 extra str from +4 tome and helm of red dragon and preferred gs mana/torc as necklace and a cha ring instead of a kyosho set) but had the opportunity to do some tests vs a same builded pally (but wf, ds 3 and the set I mentioned) and his dps is superior to mine of about 1,1% at the cost of selfhealing capabilityes and some other minor lacks. And with my pally I can assure without any doubt that top dps geared classes do near 10% more dps than me vs evil outsiders (confronted many times in EDA) except in gb where I'm superior infact my pally was selected as dps in 2 of 3 EDA world record attempt (and all 3 solved in 24 minutes...).

-Fortunately all endgame massive played quests/raid are well suited for a kotc pally, but what about Red fens and Von? And what about if they really change Carnival, Red fens, Sentinels items that need a good portion of questing time to reach those items? If there is an open lfm do you expect the leader prefers me or another type of dps?

Sorry but considering a lower dps vs a hated enemy like evil outsiders and more lower vs all the others infestations, I think a pally need a bit more dps and a bit more supporting role in a tons of possibilities (holy avenger, more usefull auras, lower pre requirments, better dm power or duration, some not-to-click abilities, etc...), they announced so many times these changes that I lost my fayth...

[grgurius]

Honestly, I think half the problem with Pallys is the fact that most of the people who run them have no idea how to build them...

This.

And for the rare case that you are well built, then you are not playing to your full potential. Paladins are a clicky based class, lots of short buffs to keep up and few abilities that you need to use every few seconds.

[Snapdragoon]

Paladins are a clicky based class, lots of short buffs to keep up and few abilities that you need to used every few seconds.

took me 14 levels to relise this, deleted the toon. i have casters i have to click every couple seconds, dont want to play a fighter like that, espicially when your in melee combat and have more to worry about.

passive damage and buff/debuffs please (see angel of vengance debuff aura for examples of how to do this)

^_^

[grgurius]

took me 14 levels to relise this, deleted the toon. i have casters i have to click every couple seconds, dont want to play a fighter like that, espicially when your in melee combat and have more to worry about.

passive damage and buff/debuffs please (see angel of vengance debuff aura for examples of how to do this)

^_^

That's one of the reasons i find playing barbs and fighters boring: auto attack, point your slashing thingy towards the enemy and go afk. With paly you are constantly doing something or you are seriously under performing.

[dingal]

I guess you're right, DoS is worthless I mean who would want to build a toon with 90+ac that can self heal while tanking Horoth.

Pali's are gimp

Hunter of the Dead is worthless, the other pre's are great.

[Claymorep]

I guess you're right, DoS is worthless I mean who would want to build a toon with 90+ac that can self heal while tanking Horoth.

Pali's are gimp

Hunter of the Dead is worthless, the other pre's are great.

Dos is not worthless, and that is a GREAT TANK? (No sarcasm, I think a real great tank with those numbers), But what's the dps? I'll be surprised if it is more than 70% of another dps build. I don't think there are a lot of players that build a main pally with epic gear, some tr and so much effort in an alt that is wonderfull in 3-4 quests, but there are 100 better choices in other quests. Which are the quest in which is usefull?
Hox, Vod, Tod and probably Echrono) and in any case another build can do the same role with a bit of effort. It's so much time that I don't see a wipe in Vod (even in elite that I think that all lfm don't ask anymore for a real tank since 2010). What about Hox? Ok, a tank help like selfsufficient dps outside the main area, but the key for a good run is the bard and healers.
Not a case that on my server real tanks are so rares that it's near 5 monthes that I saw the last...

Edit: False! I removed from my memory... I've found the last one in an EDA near 45 days ago where the 3 dps had 52, 54 and 55 kills, and he had 2 kills (behind 4 misadventure probably done by my dog), not that I count kills (but have screenshot). After the Horned devil boss ignored him as I took aggro and sealfhealed myself he asked along the whole last wave to have the opportunity to take aggro and do a tank role vs the final boss. He reincarnated 2 days after...

[elraido]

Dos is not worthless, and that is a GREAT TANK? (No sarcasm, I think a real great tank with those numbers), But what's the dps? I'll be surprised if it is more than 70% of another dps build. I don't think there are a lot of players that build a main pally with epic gear, some tr and so much effort in an alt that is wonderfull in 3-4 quests, but there are 100 better choices in other quests. Which are the quest in which is usefull?
Hox, Vod, Tod and probably Echrono) and in any case another build can do the same role with a bit of effort. It's so much time that I don't see a wipe in Vod (even in elite that I think that all lfm don't ask anymore for a real tank since 2010). What about Hox? Ok, a tank help like selfsufficient dps outside the main area, but the key for a good run is the bard and healers.
Not a case that on my server real tanks are so rares that it's near 5 monthes that I saw the last...

Edit: False! I removed from my memory... I've found the last one in an EDA near 45 days ago where the 3 dps had 52, 54 and 55 kills, and he had 2 kills (behind 4 misadventure probably done by my dog), not that I count kills (but have screenshot). After the Horned devil boss ignored him as I took aggro and sealfhealed myself he asked along the whole last wave to have the opportunity to take aggro and do a tank role vs the final boss. He reincarnated 2 days after...

Why do people think paladins with high ac can't do any dps?

[Nospheratus]

I think paly's don't need much tweaking, except for the costs of their APs. Paly's are starved on all areas of a character:
- Ability scores - MAD
- Feats
- Enhancements - because most are too expensive

Maybe that is why it's hard to build them properly...


I would tweak the HotD though. Their enhancements are nice, but they aren't really that much of hunters of the dead. They should gain, besides the current, bonuses to their attacks/damage just like the KotC but against undead.

If the costs of some enhancements were reduced they would make most paladins more versatile. At the moment you can select all or most of the enhancements in regards to what you want do to, but not much more.

I would start by reducing the cost of:
- Extra smite to 1/1/1/1
- Aura enhancements to 1/2/2/2 or even 1/1/1/1 but the later seems a bit too much (i don't think there have been any deviations from AP costs with the evolutions 1/1/1/1, 1/2/3/4 or 2/4/6, but maybe it's a good time to start)

What other options would paladins have to use their APs in?
- Extra turns - for their abilities
- Some healing enhancements
- LoH abilities like raise dead
- Extra LoH uses
- Other special abilities, like the different faith enhancements (Lord of the blades, silver flame, etc.)

This means (even) more versatility for paladins, but considering their insane requirements to start with, I believe it would be appropriate.

I think improving the aura according to the type of paladin would be a nice addition. The aura of a DoS paladin is already improved, but the suggested exceptional +10% to fortification sounds appropriate as an addition.