Nerf PMs and Implosion or just make mobs save better against that

[LeLoric]

I agree that casters were the 'driving force behind epic questing' pre u9. That's why it really boggles my mind when people say things like "now casters can actually do something in epics" and are trying to make it look like everyone who dislike it are melees who are jealous of the casters kill counts.

The obvious truth here is that the people who say that casters did not contribute to epics pre u9 are the ones who are obssessed with the kill count.



Just because there hasn't been balance doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it. And I think it was more balanced pre u9. Teamwork as a much more integral part. Even if it's not rocket science to beat on a held mob, it's still more interesting than not beating at any mobs at all.

I guess my point is what does it really matter if I held them all and any nameless melee with a set of heavy picks killed em or even myself with a dreamspitter or heavy picks. Point is even though the kill count didnt say so those kills belonged to the caster. If a melee stunned his own and killed it then that was contributing but those melees can still do that as frequently as they did before. It's really no different now if you stun a mob and the caster kills it versus before when you stunned it and the caster held it right after other than a few more clicks of your right button.

Pre u9 I would often clear out a quest then invite people in at end for loot. I still do the same. This is a function of the scroll mechanic not the effectiveness of more people in my group. Having more people always helps no matter the class if they are well built and decently geared.

You talk balance but look at the viable characters now in epic that weren't before. Evoker fs, Wis based clerics, Assasins, Spellsingers, Nuking sorcs. Sure pure melees lost some effectiveness but they are still able to join contribute and complete those quests. The builds I mentioned were often shunned in epic quests pre u9.

Even melees have more diversity now as you don't need to be a pick using build with a high stunning blow. Monk splashes gained a lot through high stunning fist dc's. Lower hp on mobs means melee can much more effectively take down a mob without caster help. The only thing really lacking a role now are the ac builds.

I think to say it was more balanced before is an error in thinking. You weren't really needed before except boss fights and really aren't now except boss fights. You just help speed things along. I think it is a little too high scaled to the caster side but only for the exceptionally geared casters. It's now a lot more like the rest of the game where trash is usually handled by casters and bosses are handled by melees.

Granted the dots are a little strong and do infringe on melee roles here more than anything that instakills does.

I think to bring melees back up to par I'd like to see bosses much more deadly. Increase their dmg 50%, give many of them true seeing, lower to hit to make high ac toons effective at tanking, give many of them dispell to strip buffs, give some of them bewildering blow.

[Raithe]

You know what is awesome?
Being able to fill an LFM and go with anything in 3 mins. Bard 5 melee EDA--Awesome. 6 Caster Echrono or 1 caster echrono, awesome.

Now, as someone who does pug Epic Quests, I can tell you that not every caster can actually kill stuff in Epics, in fact, most pugs can't--either their DCs are too low, or they just don't have the knack yet.

Also, as someone who built a necro focused cleric and grinded out gear/tomes/past lives over the years, it's great that I can use my 3 main spells, and then switch to my other spells for Boss Fights. I have not had this much fun since GH came out. I have even kept my archmage enchantment focused.

I have to say, that my Kensai was the easiest and cheapest to gear by far--she don't even need Epic gear to have top kill counts and do awesome DPS and shes a gimpy Drow. I imagine that Half Orc Barbs are cheap as well. Now, if you all were comparing AC builds with Good hate--then I would concur that perhaps an end game caster takes less grinding time--but no one makes AC builds anymore.

My melee actually switches to weapons that help in Epic to help with insta spells, In fact, instead of swinging the same 2 weapons all the time, I now use many dif sets, and since many groups have no CC, her earthgrab weapons and her guards are useful again.

It seems to me that what you are really saying is that the game (at the level you play) is simply too easy for you now. I'd concur. Many of the quests that I run are made extraordinarily easy when some particular veteran player joins that does as much DPS as the rest of the group combined. Get 2 or 3 of these in a Shroud run and its auto-complete. I'll even admit that I sometimes take my caster into such quests, and I ruin the game experience for everyone else in the group.

The irony is that those of us who have always taken any class makeup to raids and Epics, are benefitting greatly now, while I see quite a few people in this thread that were always about absolute max melee DPS/1 caster/1 bard group make ups--complaining.

I've always taken any group makeup into any quest. I'd actually hate to start excluding casters because they'll make everyone else irrelevant. As for "benefitting greatly now," I fail to see how your experience has changed. Were you failing quests before, or did you only recently decide to allow more classes into your group?

[LeLoric]

We tried this out in our short-man claws (typically a caster or two and me, I think they bring me for converation more than anything else), not worth the trouble. The stat damagers proc so rarely we'd DPS the mobs down before I'd even see them lose a point of CON. Even dual improved curse-spewers proc so badly we stopped bothering.

Better off bringing my Khopesh toon and just earth grabbing. It's a shame though as this could be a great niche for melees if it worked better.

I stat dmg epic mobs all the time, blind them, stun them, earthgrab them, trip them. All of these lower one save or another. Stat dmg is not the most effective but it does work. Someone really serious about it could make a couple enervate weapons and wear fearsome armor in heavy caster groups. Barbs could use intimidate with their enhancement to lower saves. I'd love a melee tactical feat that could lower fort saves maybe tack this on to sunder or something. Truth is if in a heavy caster group theres always something you can contribute to if you look for it.

My ranger with a 1 lev wiz splash will often throw out a hypno or a cause fear to lower saves on a tough mob if theres a caster around. Terror arrows for an AA are also helpful here to give stat debuffs.

I do think there could be a little bit of a relax on the stat dmg resistance but theres still ways to help out.

[Raithe]

Again- if it bothers you that much run epics without casters. It's doable.

The fact that it's completely "doable" without casting classes isn't necessarily a good thing, either. It really means that the quests are not well designed and gimic abilities like assasinate and stun are working overtime.

If you do it without even those gimic abilities, your character stats are simply beyond the design of the quest. You probably need to start over at level 1 on a new server.

[Ssmooth]

The issue appears more to be the ability to Enervate mobs until you can inta-kill them, not caster DC or mob save.

If you take that ability away(Enervation) only the elite casters will have the DC's to insta-kill in epics.

[Mastese]

For the sake of argument, and only for the sake of argument (because it serves no other purpose), a well-built melee's ability to single-handedly take down a shroud portal tops out at 36 seconds*. Comparably, the best that can be accomplished by way of Arcane is 1 minute and 3 seconds*. That's a 57% DPS advantage to the Melee where portals are concerned, clearly out of balance and certainly in the interest of balance needs to be addressed. Would the most effective way of doing this be by nerfing the melee's ability to generate DPS altogether?

-Mastese

*Source: Shade's DPS Challenge, Part2

[Raithe]

Truth is if in a heavy caster group theres always something you can contribute to if you look for it.

Yes, you can also use a pick to open that lock instead of making a caster use knock. I have several stat damaging characters and weapons, and use cursespewing and shattermantle extensively. These effects apply when the quest is an appropriate challenge.

I would laugh at the kensei trying to hit mobs with a stat damager or debuffing weapon in a Vale quest or Tor run with my caster. He should pull out his highest DPS great crossbow and pray for 20s so that I don't have to follow my disintegrate with a low cost force missile.

There is a dual problem with imbalance:
1) Some classes feel useless.
2) Other classes are not challenged at all.

Most of you seem fine with #2. You are the real problem, and the developers seem to be siding with you.

[Havok.cry]

Casters should have great CC against appropriate targets. They should be able to instakill other casters, for sure. Most of all, however, they should be excellent ranged DPS that eventually runs out of sp if they don't act conservatively. When they run out of sp, their options should be subpar ranged DPS like wands and scrolls, or subpar melee/ranged with simple weapons.

This should apply to all quests within a 3 level range of a particular caster, on both sides. Six levels is not enough difference in spell points (600-700 at most) that it should become a cakewalk for a caster on the high side while being undoable for a caster on the low side.

Gear needs to be made relevant to only the levels for which the supplying quest is designed, again up to a 3 level swing on either side. They could replicate the Devil Assault system in more quests (all of them, imo) so that high level characters have a reason to run new content, and without allowing lower levels to pike for benefits. Characters excessively beyond the level range of the quest should cause ransacked chest conditions for everyone in the group.

Since you asked...

Please explain what you mean by cc apropriate things. Please explain the damage range you would consider appropriate for this subpar ranged damage? Please explain the rational for only being able to instakill other casters or other specific groups. please explain what you mean by making geag relevant to only a certain level range of quests (ie would it lose bonuses after you pass that level range, or is this refering to quest dificulty, and would hard to get raid geag be exempt from this, also would this gear thing effrct melee's or would it be targeted at caster only gear). I agree with implementing something like the DA difficulties in all quests but would find the CC dificulties a better option. How would you envidion these changes effecting multiclass casters like battlewizards?

[Viisari]

Haven't read the whole thread, but what's up with all these people saying you need multiple TR's for the best dc? If we're not counting completionist, there is EXACTLY ONE past life that will increase your necro dc, the active wizard past life. You don't need multiple TR's for that, you need one TR. Do these people just talk out of their arses or why do some people think you'd need multiple TR's?

And yes while sorc past lives get you evocation dc, wail of the banshee > implosion.

Gear is much more important.

Oh, and melees are useless, take more casters on your epic runs, stuff is smoother like that.

[Aashrym]

I guess my point is what does it really matter if I held them all and any nameless melee with a set of heavy picks killed em or even myself with a dreamspitter or heavy picks. Point is even though the kill count didnt say so those kills belonged to the caster. If a melee stunned his own and killed it then that was contributing but those melees can still do that as frequently as they did before. It's really no different now if you stun a mob and the caster kills it versus before when you stunned it and the caster held it right after other than a few more clicks of your right button.

Pre u9 I would often clear out a quest then invite people in at end for loot. I still do the same. This is a function of the scroll mechanic not the effectiveness of more people in my group. Having more people always helps no matter the class if they are well built and decently geared.

You talk balance but look at the viable characters now in epic that weren't before. Evoker fs, Wis based clerics, Assasins, Spellsingers, Nuking sorcs. Sure pure melees lost some effectiveness but they are still able to join contribute and complete those quests. The builds I mentioned were often shunned in epic quests pre u9.

Even melees have more diversity now as you don't need to be a pick using build with a high stunning blow. Monk splashes gained a lot through high stunning fist dc's. Lower hp on mobs means melee can much more effectively take down a mob without caster help. The only thing really lacking a role now are the ac builds.

I think to say it was more balanced before is an error in thinking. You weren't really needed before except boss fights and really aren't now except boss fights. You just help speed things along. I think it is a little too high scaled to the caster side but only for the exceptionally geared casters. It's now a lot more like the rest of the game where trash is usually handled by casters and bosses are handled by melees.

Granted the dots are a little strong and do infringe on melee roles here more than anything that instakills does.

I think to bring melees back up to par I'd like to see bosses much more deadly. Increase their dmg 50%, give many of them true seeing, lower to hit to make high ac toons effective at tanking, give many of them dispell to strip buffs, give some of them bewildering blow.

I approve of this post.

For the most part I do like what we have gotten from U9, but wail was an issue where it worked before and continues to be an issue now that it works in more places.

The DoTs are strong and could use some tweaking.

I do not actually think spellsingers are any better off than before, however, and personal opinion is worse off. Caster bards pretty much received nothing but nerf in U9 spellpass for enchantments and the only saving graces are more casters for the spellsinger songs and debuffs to help with enchantments before getting the capstone. The spells worked just fine in epics with lower saves on trash without the debuffs so suddenly durations were cut and more SP and time was needed for debuffing first or else a higher DC grind required for the character. Net loss IMO. Just saying.

KristovK has a post about a 38 DC wiz and those posts are the reason I am not a fan of big nerfs on a wide scale. I do run with some casters who absolutely mop up the floor throughout a quest and I run with others who do need the group. So many of both when I pug it is hard to keep the average in perspective. Four casters and they can all have 38-40 DC with the multiple saves and do quite well tho.

Give melee more durability and make bosses more deadly. That follows some of my thoughts.

Most posts I see requesting change really boil down to a few spells.

[LeLoric]

There is a dual problem with imbalance:
1) Some classes feel useless.
2) Other classes are not challenged at all.

If you feel useless then you need to reevaluate what you are doing.

It's not that other classes are not challenged at all it's that extremely high end characters are not challenged. Moderately geared wizards are still challenged. Exceptionally geared fighters are not.

Thats the way the development works. It tailors towards the middle. Sure I'd love some extremely hard challenging content for my characters but fact of the matter is the curve of players at that kind of skill level are very few comparatively. Theres not enough development hours to do that and still keep the rest of the population happy.

It's very similar to school systems. An A+ high school student has a higher chance of dropping out of college than a B student in high school as those A+ students haven't learned how to properly study as high school was too easy. They also become bored in college as most of the learning is designed around repitition and regurgitation rather than explorative thinking and creativity which is tailored towards the B students.

[KristovK]

It takes me a lot less investment in time on my wizards than on other classes. That was part of my point and what I would consider an indiscretion in game design. This has been the case for a very long time but the changed impacted me more while running epics now.

What would you consider weaknesses on a wizard to balance out the strengths? I am still not up for huge nerfs or taking away new toys but I do think some of those toy could use a polish.

See..that first sentence..that's the opposite for me, takes me no time at all to get good gear for a Melee, takes me much more for a Caster, especially an Arcane. And with the new crafting..please, my Melee just became instantly geared with anything they'll need. My Arcanes..not so much. Pretty much have to run end game content, outside of Epics, in order to get the best Arcane gear. And before the crafting, it was still easier to gear my Melee, after all, a couple of GS weapons, you've got it ALL covered. GS for Arcane..come on..what a joke, outside of the SP and HP boosts you can get on GS, they really do jack for Arcane.

Now, the weakness of Arcanes IS already in the game, limited SP. By the same token, that same weakness is totally removed by the ability to simply buy all the SP you want from the TP store. How do you fix that? Easy, remove SP pots from the store and the game. Odds of THAT taking place...yeah...pretty sure I'll see pics of Satan having a snowball fight with Stalin and Hitler before that's even on the table for consideration. Remove Echoes of Power..it won't change anything for the people who are already abusing the SP pots, so not a factor worth consideration, but I've stated more then once already I'll /sign for that one. Years ago, the limitations of SP were a serious cap on what Arcanes could do, SP pots were few and far between prior to GH being added to the game, and even after GH and then the Shroud and Amrath, they weren't common place. Shrines didn't reset on any setting, so you carefully managed your SP until you were out, bypassing any shrines until AFTER you actually needed SP. And EVERY Caster, Divine OR Arcane, was in love with a Cleric who had DVs! Now, you ask if a RadServ Cleric has DVs and they just look at you like you are speaking Klingon or something. They might have 20 Bursts/Auras and Divine Healing..but DVs? Why would they take THAT? Just buy some pots and stop whining already!

[Viisari]

Now, the weakness of Arcanes IS already in the game, limited SP. By the same token, that same weakness is totally removed by the ability to simply buy all the SP you want from the TP store. How do you fix that? Easy, remove SP pots from the store and the game.

Irrelevant, with good SP management and player skill you never need pots (unless **** hits the fan) which means that SP as a limiting factor is marginal at best.

As the game is now, it is better to take party full of arcanes than a balanced party. Eardweller is easy to farm and with it you're good on the dps department for boss fights. Around 40 necro dc is easy to achieve, and two or three casters with that dc will destroy all trash mobs in almost any quest easily.

Taking good melees instead of good casters will only slow you down, and this will be even more true if the casters are geared.

[LeLoric]

I do not actually think spellsingers are any better off than before, however, and personal opinion is worse off. Caster bards pretty much received nothing but nerf in U9 spellpass for enchantments and the only saving graces are more casters for the spellsinger songs and debuffs to help with enchantments before getting the capstone. The spells worked just fine in epics with lower saves on trash without the debuffs so suddenly durations were cut and more SP and time was needed for debuffing first or else a higher DC grind required for the character. Net loss IMO. Just saying.

Spellsingers benefit indirectly. Being able to refill a spellbar and up dc's is much more desirable than before. There was really no reason to want a spellsinger over a warchanter before but now they gain desirability over those same warchanters in many parties.

High dc spellsingers can still land spells and gained more usefulness with crushing despair to be a mass save debuffer.

[KristovK]

Irrelevant, with good SP management and player skill you never need pots (unless **** hits the fan) which means that SP as a limiting factor is marginal at best.

As the game is now, it is better to take party full of arcanes than a balanced party. Eardweller is easy to farm and with it you're good on the dps department for boss fights. Around 40 necro dc is easy to achieve, and two or three casters with that dc will destroy all trash mobs in almost any quest easily.

Taking good melees instead of good casters will only slow you down, and this will be even more true if the casters are geared.

First part, been true since the game was in beta, nothing has changed there except people no longer bother to manage their SP, they just quaff a pot or 20.

Second part, been true all along as well, nothing new there, only now the Arcane can do it just a leetle beet faster in some cases(Epics). The DC you mention, 40, isn't easy to attain, it's something that only good players with the right gear and favor can attain, not including the TR boosts that make 45 the 'average' to aim for now.

Third part..not true, Melee are still the hands down Kings of taking down Portals in Shroud.

Got anything actually not already covered and dismissed to put on the table?

[LeLoric]

First part, been true since the game was in beta, nothing has changed there except people no longer bother to manage their SP, they just quaff a pot or 20.

Second part, been true all along as well, nothing new there, only now the Arcane can do it just a leetle beet faster in some cases(Epics). The DC you mention, 40, isn't easy to attain, it's something that only good players with the right gear and favor can attain, not including the TR boosts that make 45 the 'average' to aim for now.

Third part..not true, Melee are still the hands down Kings of taking down Portals in Shroud.

Got anything actually not already covered and dismissed to put on the table?

Yes some people do drink pots like there is no tomorrow but those are actually few and far between. Most casters still manage the spell bar and use it to the most effective they can.

[Khurse]

The fact that it's completely "doable" without casting classes isn't necessarily a good thing, either. It really means that the quests are not well designed and gimic abilities like assasinate and stun are working overtime.

If you do it without even those gimic abilities, your character stats are simply beyond the design of the quest. You probably need to start over at level 1 on a new server.

I'd agree.

And if the OP's post and argument were "Epics are far to easy and need a complete overhaul so only the best team play can get you through" I'd completely support it.

But these "Nerf the casters who kill things , but I'm not going to mention the casters who can land holds on everything so we can kill it safely" posts are kinda odd (in my opinion of course)

[Aashrym]

Spellsingers benefit indirectly. Being able to refill a spellbar and up dc's is much more desirable than before. There was really no reason to want a spellsinger over a warchanter before but now they gain desirability over those same warchanters in many parties.

High dc spellsingers can still land spells and gained more usefulness with crushing despair to be a mass save debuffer.

Those were my saving graces I mentioned.

I just do not think they outweigh losing extend on my spells and making them either take more SP and time or land less, or both. In the meantime options were opened up for other classes. Options did not open up for my casting bard except possibly with some of the player perceptions because as far as casting went was was worse off in epics than before U9.

I could land spells still, but less often so the end result was more prep time and SP cost for less duration. Crushing despair is a better spell, and so is deep slumber, but neither made up for for the other changes.

We also lost on SP efficiency compared to to other classes when the spell costs changed. I can no longer claim a 40 DC for the cost of a 6th level spell compared to a 40 DC for the cost of a 9th level spell for a sorc, for example.

Desirability over a war chanter was not an issue for me before because most groups were happy to take any bard over no bard. So that perk might have been lost on me.

That is a side topic tho. Read the thread in my sig for more of my comments on those changes. It starts out with feedback and gets converted to suggestions to improve bards in general.

[KristovK]

Yes some people do drink pots like there is no tomorrow but those are actually few and far between. Most casters still manage the spell bar and use it to the most effective they can.

This is true, on the average most people don't consume SP pots left and right. They don't have infinite SP either and they are the ones best effected by U9, now the SP they use is better spent.

However, PGers, especially the ones who do epics all day every day and that's it outside of a few choice raids...they do quaff em like your local rugby team knocking back a keg. It's efficient, it's the best way to get the job done in the least amount of time, and it lets them nuke away to their hearts content without every worrying about it. I've run with quite a few of those doing Epics, and been told how gimped I make myself by NOT doing the same, not to mention how I'm slowing them down because I need to shrine. And recently, past 2 weeks or so I guess, I'm seeing that in LOW LEVELS as well, from WW to GH. Blew my mind to see a 5th level Sorc knocking back SP pots in WW on normal. Amazed me when I saw it being done by a Wiz in STK and Delera's...by GH, I was expecting it from all those Arcanes with the earplugs. That is, sadly, something that's becoming less rare and more common, especially with the TRs.

[Raithe]

It's not that other classes are not challenged at all it's that extremely high end characters are not challenged. Moderately geared wizards are still challenged. Exceptionally geared fighters are not.

Gear does not make as much difference as you think it does. I started my drow wizard with only 19 intelligence because I wanted to use the other 4 build points to shore up his weaknesses. Let's see what DC I can get him with very minimal gear investment:

1) Base - 10 DC
2) Attribute - 4.5 DC
3) Necromancy feats - 2 DC
4) Level ups - 2.5 DC
5) Heighten - 9 DC
6) Wizard Intelligence III - 1.5 DC
7) Capstone - 1 DC
8) Archmage Spell Mastery II - 2 DC
9) Intelligence item - 3 DC
10) Greater necromancy bracers - 2 DC
11) +3 tome - 20 Shroud runs - 1.5 DC
12) +3 exc. int - see #11 - 1.5 DC
13) Minor intelligence shrine - 0.5 DC

Total: DC = 41

Now add in that I can take Necromancy IV for a 10sp enervation spell-like ability, and my effective DC against high fort enemies is 43-49, with 46 being the average.

All for the low cost of 20 Shroud runs.