when will the eadq1 rakshasa fights exploit be fixed?

[uhgungawa]

1) If you are not required to kill the Prince to advance the quest, then using DD is a tactic

2) Even if it was an exploit, posting on the forums is against the rule

[sirgog]

Not an exploit. Killing all six should be an optional, but electing not to do so does not meet the letter or the spirit of the published criteria for exploits.

Electing not to kill them adds to dungeon alert and so can make some parts of the dungeon harder, especially if Bat is last or second last.

[DragonTroy]

if a player can figure out a way to avoid something they have to do and save valueable resources(sp,hp,maybe clickies, etc) they shouldnt be punished. if the dungeon maker had wanted them to deal with the (monster, trap,area, etc) they should have done what the always do, make it unavoidable

[steelblueskies]

like locking the player int he room until its dealt with right?

again cannot be stealthed, invis'd, stun and run, anything but the three options listed.

in wolf you have doors closed until a pack is dealt with. no quest objective for those either, but also no means to bypass the door without dealing with them to get to the objective.

this quest screams of repeating the same mechanic.

what we have is exactly two classes who can use one method, or anyone abusing a hireling.

syllph- you mentioned one actual optional objective(deleras), and i'm still trying to figure out where you are finding the other in house p. only thing i can think of is rest for the restless and a lever that is tied to the surrounding gates. thats closer, but lacks the alternate solution- killing a mob which spawns in the room.

but i see we have another hound esque bunch of happy campers. same things said there.

it's an event trigger chaining problem, one remaining from a very old chain all things considered. instead of glyph>kill spawned rakshasa>glyph for objectives, they skimped. i even see why it probably got missed when they looked at it again to make the epic difficulty. bypassing six fights perceived as mandatory in the design changes difficulty quite a bit.

well when they finally choose to redress this, at least you will all be on even footing when you speak to altering the quests difficulty thenceforth.

funny thing is, this was initially thrown out there by someone as an example of how arcanes have an unfair advantage and should be nerfed. irony.

made sure to send a message to tolero for good measure.

there are things that are working as intended, there are things that are not, and there are things that they never even considered possible/a problem. this will now at least have the luxury of going on one list or the other.

p.s. sirgog- if i just potentially made more work in revamping the epic sands loot and mechanics, on the basis of potentially altered difficulty for eadq1, my apologies.

[grandeibra]

dimension door was available before the sands pack was released so the tactic has always worked.

And OP's claim of exploit is way off (specifically on epic). I don't see it as being any different than groups DDing from first key-room in Rainbow to avoid a bunch of fights on way back

Now I wouldn't mind if they wanna change the quest, but it's not like windowfarming pre-abbot for free loot or using invisble bridge on DQ, making harry bug out with undead scrolls in shroud5 and many other real exploits ^^

[xTethx]

You can always run in there, die, take rez near the glyph, hit the glyph, die again, get rezzed again outside the room and the room is done without killing one thing. Intended?

[Hokiewa]

there are things that are working as intended, there are things that are not, and there are things that they never even considered possible/a problem.

They are aware. However, your issue is not one that needs to be considered or it would've been eons ago. You are obsessed with this.

Let it go....

[barryman5000]

I get the feeling this is the same kind of thought that killed my quick house p runs .

[archora]

1 P&P was always about finding different routes from point A to point B.

2 If you dont like the DD method form your own group telling people you dont want to bypass those mobs.

3 It clearly isnt an exploit.

4 Other than you, who cares?

[Stanley_Nicholas]

bypassing six fights perceived as mandatory in the design changes difficulty quite a bit.

This is where you are in error - your perception is wrong. The fights are not mandatory because they are not required objectives. Period. Just because ddoor is the only way you know of to bypass the fights does not mean ddoor is an exploit; your logic on that doesn't follow.

You're dismissing examples of avoiding "optional objectives" but they are at least objectives. Killing the illusions aren't even objectives at all, and therefore have even lower priority than optional objectives. They are more akin to traps, like the teleportation trap in Rainbow in the Dark. You can run to the shrine, get teleported into a closed room, and kill all the fire eles to get out, or you can skip it all by bringing a rogue and disabling the trap box. Here you're avoiding being trapped in a room by bringing an arcane rather than a rogue - how is that at all different? Neither is a listed objective at all, and both have more than one way to proceed. Simple as that.

Also, as I mentioned before, those fights are not difficult, merely a little more time consuming than killing other epic trash as long as you have a decent group. If the fights are not difficult, then skipping them does not change the quest's difficulty "quite a bit".

You may want it to be considered an exploit, but that doesn't mean it is one. You play in your preferred way and let others play in theirs. It doesn't affect you at all. Perhaps you should start considering the possibility that the reason your past bug reports haven't resulted in getting it changed is, that Turbine disagrees with your assessment and finds it to be WAI.

[FrostBeard]

more rubbish,

have you even done the quest on epic before? seriously

this "tactic" cuts the quest completion time down by half, which is over an hour normally and extremely heavy on resources as it is.

if anything make the boss what he is, a projection (weaker hps, saves etc.)

besides they have more important things to work on anyway like some EPIC NEW CONTENT>?

[steelblueskies]

like the whole hound of xoriat thing that eventually got patched?

either way what will come will come. you can disagree, you can claim its already known, but then there's no reason to keep responding is there?

as noted there are many things that must be done in that quest that are not listed objectives. that a subset of them have a mechanic that can be used to bypass them in this fashion and others do not seems to be as far as people are getting. wolf side doors with cages opening with tharaak hounds. scorp side with door until scorpions in pit are dead. snake side with portal that blocks the glyph room and respawns mobs until associated caster trog is killed. same quest. no associated objective. so they did this three times with a required kill or kills to progress in the same quest, with normal trash mobs, but the rednames to get back out are fine to skip because there's no quest objective tied to their death in the objective log?

to wit, if its not an exploit then you have nothing to be concerned with. it's just one person(according to certain posters here) who is wrong and obsessing. if it's already well known by the devs and left alone as working as intended, again you have zero to be concerned with.

prompted by a certain post claiming it was known, wai, and that i was obsessing, i decided to obsess.

a bit of time with forums search and google turned up this approach being mentioned exactly once. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...&highlight=dq1 post #20. that was 9/12/2010 and buried in the middle of a decent length post. in the volumes of other discussion on the quest in question responses are expectant of killing the rakshasas.

looking at the wiki there's a tip section only relevant if one is killing the rakshasas. none of these are definitive of course, but isn't it interesting how every guide for it on this forum includes the words kill the rakshasa/prince.

anywho, all started over in "Enough with the insta kills in epics?" from this post

...snip...
True, there are melees that could handle octopus Now I haven't actually tried it on my melee, but I'd think clearing the glyph room in monkey for example would be very difficult, there are quite a few wildmen and atleast one caster there, so even *if* it can be done, you're probably chucking silver flame pots like a drunkard. And then comes the fight with the prince.

So yes, while it *might* be possible, it'll be much, much slower with melees, arcane can clear half the room with one click and just dd to start when the glyph is used, there is no need to kill the prince in any of the rooms.

The whole point has been that what a melee can do, caster can do better, which makes melees pointless.
..snip..

a point of argument. but the discussion has run the ground of content flaws vs class flaws with regards to imbalance.

now this seemed off, but i was open to the option that maybe it was just a trick i hadn't seen before. sane thing to do when it's unclear? search a bit, and ask a few people.some limited searching was less fruitful, so i followed on with throwing a hypothetical involving a box room, a quest trigger switch, and a spawning mob tied to a locked door, and asking what people would call ddooring out when they couldn't exit the room except by the methods outlined earlier. thirty hypotheticals presented to thirty people later, the answer was still unanimously exploit.

then we get to here. looking at the fires, one can only surmise i just spilled beans some people did not want spilled. they have zero incentive to say anything but you are wrong, if that - assuming of course that i am wrong. if i am not, then the responses make perfect sense.

i think in all this the only regret is not hitting a specific thread on exploit reports before having gone through three others instead and coming here. had i, i would have just messaged tolero first , skipped the forum and been done, preserving the account against infraction. the one directing people to message community team members the details really ought to still be a sticky somewhere.

have also tracked down the bug report issue, apparently when it works one should receive an automated reply. i haven't (ever) so it's not going through(not working). might as well be the blank page others get for all its use.

[Mister_Peace]

Why do you believe players should have only one way to defeat monsters?

[Buggss]

.....probably stuck waiting til monday or later for a response of merit unfortunately.

I understand you believe it's an exploit and your opinion is perfectly valid but just because someone disagrees with you doesn't automatically make their response of any less merit.

Respecting other players' opinions is just as important as having your own.

like locking the player int he room until its dealt with right?.....

Here you've gone from calling people cheats to calling devs stupid. Don't you think they're aware of the dimension door spell THEY added to the game? Regardless of whether it was added before or after the quest first appeared they've either decided,

1) It isn't enough of an exploit to warrant a change
2) It's an innovative way of doing the quest
3) They agree it needs changing but they have more important things to do

can't you just trust they know what they're doing in this case?

Admittedly, given recent dev decisions on other topics that trust may have been slightly bruised but on this one I'm happy to go with their opinion and I hardly ever run eadq1 before you ask.

[steelblueskies]

I understand you believe it's an exploit and your opinion is perfectly valid but just because someone disagrees with you doesn't automatically make their response of any less merit.

Respecting other players' opinions is just as important as having your own.



Here you've gone from calling people cheats to calling devs stupid. Don't you think they're aware of the dimension door spell THEY added to the game? Regardless of whether it was added before or after the quest first appeared they've either decided,

1) It isn't enough of an exploit to warrant a change
2) It's an innovative way of doing the quest
3) They agree it needs changing but they have more important things to do

can't you just trust they know what they're doing in this case?

Admittedly, given recent dev decisions on other topics that trust may have been slightly bruised but on this one I'm happy to go with their opinion and I hardly ever run eadq1 before you ask.

none of our opinions on this sort of topic have as much merit as the designers and developers. that's the stance. the designers and developers are also human and not all knowing all seeing gods. therefore an assumption that time in existence equates to developer awareness is an error very easy to make.
as stated previously, attempts have been made to insure they become aware, and have opportunity to consider it.
if they already have, they already have. upon discovering a certain thread i would have asked the cube to close this, as the private messages have already been sent with respect to the issue to certain staff members, meaning the responses here are largely useless, and the thread is both public and redundant at this point.
does zero good to edit anything either, as its already cached and in googles first three results pages for a number of related keywords. actually, ideally the initial post would have gone its way until closed, dev responded, or the forums closed, but it seems the tactic was a lot more widespread then its mention in forum advice for the last few years the search parses seem to indicate. one mention before today, buried. bring it up with the word fix, and people come crawling out of the woodwork to shut you up, put you down, and worse.

so as parting words. no, i don't give a cow what your opinions are, and frankly even though the cube or his brethren will likely eat this thread as is appropriate, they aren't going to hoover mail asking this be looked at out of team members inboxes. it'll get dealt with or it won't. all the claims, jibes, insults or attempts to convince ME are wasted. it looks like what i've called it to me, and experience including recent memory says there's plenty that's been around for a while they've missed. the letters been in the mail asking them to look at it. go convince the people who will be able to change it or leave it alone when their eye falls on it. go tell them they've already decided its fine. trying to convince me changes nothing, even if you succeed: i can't change how they will or will not respond.

[Buggss]

.....trying to convince me changes nothing, even if you succeed: i can't change how they will or will not respond.

Look again, I haven't tried to convince you of anything or change your mind. I said quite clearly your opinion is fine, just like most other people's.

If staff and/or devs agree with you it'll change, if they don't it won't. Kinda like everything else in life really.

[Qzipoun]

If he kills you he also disappears and the room unlocks. Calling this an exploit is silly.

[grandeibra]

good posts buggss and haha exactly qzipoun ^^

This q was released what, in early 2007 or so? so in 4.5 years it's been easily possible to bypass the non-required rakshasas either by using regular legitimate spell or through other means like death and now with hirelings.

If OP instead had said: "rakshasas should not be optional it makes the quest lame" or something to that effect I may have agreed with him but to call it an exploit is ridiculous imo.

[voodoogroves]

(1) Not an exploit. Do you want to change it so you can't muck w/ the key order in Chains of Flame by dropping from the bridges? How about changing Rainbow so summoned archons (w/ Summon Monster or the AoV class ability) don't light up the area? We're not talking about someone hanging from a wall to confuse monster AI while things cook, we're talking about using a spell for its primary use. Should we change the Pit to anchor out DDoors too?

(2) Doesn't need to be "fixed" or "changed". When I see groups running EADQ1 all the flipping time and breezing through because of that ... yeah maybe it's a little off-balance ... until then you're taking a pet peeve that only affects a subset and positioning it like it is a major problem.

(3) I'm not firmly in the no-changing-old-**** camp. Unless we're really adding value to the game, leave the old stuff alone and lets please let Turbine produce new and better content.

[Rawel_San]

If he kills you he also disappears and the room unlocks. Calling this an exploit is silly.

That is also cheating though. The quest was clearly designed before anyone was able to raise dead and so it
should be changed.

Ddoor was in game when the quest was introduced moreover you could by scrolls of it back then. The method
was perfectly legitimate then and is still now. In no way is it an exploit.