Thrasius The Unyielding

[fyzikx]

So according to past posts, I've found that with Pallys:
-2ftr lvls are inferior to rog and monk splashes
-extend spell is not a must, but very useful for keeping that DPS high and sustained(Pally DPS wise)
-khopesh is your best friend
-and Pallys are geared towards TWF when talking DPS

Without further ado, I bring to you...

Thrasius the Unyielding
Half-Orc Pure Paladin TWF
36pt Build
Strength:18
Dexterity:16
Constitution:14
Intelligence:6
Wisdom:8
Charisma:14

You're probably wondering why I would take only 14 charisma, because then I wouldnt be eligible for DM4, but think about it, if I drop starting strength to 16 and bring charisma up to 16 then I would lose out on Horc strength II, but if I drop DM4 and start with 18 starting strength and take the Horc strength II I would have accounted for that loss of +2 damage, and to top it off it would be sustained+the 2 to-hit it that the +4 str comes with

Feats(in any order):Khop prof/extend spell, PA, TWF line, iCrit:Slashing, Toughness

All skill points into UMD, at lvl 15 I ate a +4 intel tome making it so that I could put points into balance as well. Get UMD to 30 with the 11 ranks, your charisma modifier, and other items for use of Epic Chaosblades slotted with silver since Pally capstone already makes it bypass good

Enhancements:
Faith Basic Tenants:Follower of the Sovereign Host
Faith Advanced Belief:Unyielding Sovereignty
Half-Orc Power Attack III
Half Orc Strength II
Paladin Courage of Good II
Paladin Divine Sacrifice III
Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Racial Toughness II
Paladin Toughness II
Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Divine Might III
Paladin Weapons of Good

Gear: Anything you're willing to grind for....and the usual sets that a DPS would wear, KOTC set shouldn't be overlooked. Preffered Weapon would be epic Chaosblades, but for some that is a bit too farfetched. Definitely a +7 charisma item...

Choice to drop extend spell based on the fact that I don't wail on enemies for 4 minutes straight, and that I have time to cast Divine Favor, zeal, and Divine Might during boss beatdowns, and based on experience with past paladins I really do have the time to use my clickies even during heated fights. I also play smart, and not cast Zeal and DF during 30sec battles...

Other Build idea: Stay Horc, splash 2 monk, get OTWF and extend spell, get evasion, and drop DS III+Pally Capstone(free up 5 AP)<----for those who aren't geared to the teeth and are having to-hit problems and a problem with dropping extend spell since they like having max DPS all the time on every mob

Leave feedback, good or bad,and remember that I know that a Paladin isn't max DPS

[fyzikx]

Really? Not a single post, I either did really good building this toon, or I made it so bad that no one wants to even bother....

No comments about if its better than a human and what not?

[Helexax]

I would say roll it human, extra feat on a feat starved class, skill points, and a stat spread of 16, 15, 14, 8, 8, 16-18 maybe.

[fyzikx]

I kinda already explained why I dropped whatever I did, and human TWF pally's generally have to-hit problems in raids especially without greater banes, and destruction items. Switching out a destruction item to hit a mob then switching back is not a fun way to play...imo

I may have forgotten to mention that fighter past lives help a lot, especially with my Horc version(which before i Tr'ed into it had 2 fighter past lives on his belt)

[Calebro]

human TWF pally's generally have to-hit problems

An Half-orc with the H-orc PA enhancements is going to have a lower to-hit bonus than a human, so if that was one of your reasons then you're doing it backwards.

To break it down for you:
A human with PA: -5/+5
An H-orc with H-orc PAIII: -8/+8
The H-orc Str gives +2 Str, which offers +1 to-hit/dam, which makes it a -7 to-hit.
That's a lower to-hit than the human's -5.
So if to-hit was an issue for you, the H-orc PA enhancements make it worse, and the human's extra feat is just gravy.
And depending on your gear set-up and final Str score, your human could very well have the same Str mod as the H-orc anyway.
That was his point. Extra feat, extra skill points, possibly the same Str mod.

[fyzikx]

Um....if geared exactly the same how does the human come out with the same strength mod?.....then again a geared to the teeth human vs a Horc is negligible

Horc Pally str breakdown 18 base+2 enhancement+7 item+4 tome+2 yugo+2 madstone+2 rage+2 exceptional+5 lvl ups=44str

Human is 16 base+1 enhancement+7 item+4 tome+2 yugo+2 madstone+2 rage+2 exceptional +5 lvl ups=41 str(unrounded stat until you get a +3 exceptional or stick with a +1 exceptional)

You can add +2 ship buffs for 46 vs 42 or 44

Add in Horc Power Attack II which is an extra -3 to-hit with PA on, but is remedied by a 2 fighter past lives and a higher strength score by 4(atleast I'm pretty sure it does)

Both can max out all the damage dealing Pally enhancements+the strength enh and some other enhancements

Horc makes up for DM4 with a slightly higher strength score and PA enhancements, and then with that does more unbuffed damage when all your buffs aren't on

Human gets extend spell almost insuring that you will have zeal and DF most of the time, but IMO not necessary as...

-During boss beatdowns, I rarely see nonstop pounding on a boss unless it's a barbarian(hopefully he can take a few hits because theres a good chance he could pull aggro) since even a fighter has downtime between boss battles to use haste boosts and power surge

-During mobs, I don't see a fight going past 2:45, and even then you have enough time to recast all your buffs without being maimed in the process(as you are in a party, and you are NOT the only target)

Human also gets some nice boosts from HVIII(highest tier of HV i could fit in without dropping other important enhancements) including a boost to attack which is useful for some fights

You both bring up good points and I love the feedback, but what I could really use(aka really need) is a DPS comparison in a 5min beatdown between a Horc and a Human(with extend spell and DM4) max DPS Paladin, so I know which one to TR into for my final life

[Calebro]

Um....if geared exactly the same how does the human come out with the same strength mod?.....then again a geared to the teeth human vs a Horc is negligible

Horc Pally str breakdown 18 base+2 enhancement+7 item+4 tome+2 yugo+2 madstone+2 rage+2 exceptional+5 lvl ups=44str

Human is 16 base+1 enhancement+7 item+4 tome+2 yugo+2 madstone+2 rage+2 exceptional +5 lvl ups=41 str(unrounded stat until you get a +3 exceptional or stick with a +1 exceptional)

You can add +2 ship buffs for 46 vs 42 or 44

Add in Horc Power Attack II which is an extra -3 to-hit with PA on, but is remedied by a 2 fighter past lives and a higher strength score by 4(atleast I'm pretty sure it does)

You could easily start the human with and 18 Str as well. You'd just have to sacrifice some Cha for it, and a point of Dex which is negligible.
H-orc gets 2 AP, human gets 1. So if you start the human at 18 rather than 16, the only difference is whether you end at an odd or even number.
18 +5 levels +1 enhancement = 24 for human. Everything else that you would add could be added to both. That means the H-orc is at an odd number and gets the same modifier. Depending on your gear, that may change and put ypou even again, which is the only time that H-orc has a Str advantage unless you max Str at 20 at creation.

And you can't count the past lives in favor of the H-orc, because they'd favor the human even more. So I say again, if to-hit is an issue for you, human is the better choice.
For pure DPS, the H-orc is the better choice. But you specified that humans have troubles hitting, which a) isn't true, and b) gets amplified on a H-orc because of the PA enhancements.

It's a 36 point build, so you could go:
Str 18
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 14
on a human and get an extra feat, 2 skill points per level, 3 at 8 with a +2, a better to-hit, and *possibly* have a -1 Str mod compared to the H-orc.
But the H-orc will be better DPS. It's a trade-off and a choice that you have to make.

As far as the enhancements, if you wanted to free some up, then you'd be dropping some from Exalted Smite, Extra Smite, and Divine Sacrifice. The first teir of DivSac is plenty, because the biggest benefit of it comes from the extra crit mod at tier one. The few d6's of extra light damage is gravy.
The AP spent on smite enhancements have diminishing returns because of the few smites that you get. You're spending a TON of AP to enhance attacks that you only get a handful of.
If you have the points for them then they're great to have. If you're looking to free some up, they're the first to go.

[fyzikx]

Actually I just thought of what if I maxed Strength on the Human and dropped dex to 15(+2 tome to qualify for iTWF and gTWF) and charisma to 14 just like the Horc build?

Human 20 Paladin
36pt Build
18
15
14
8
8
14

Better? With this build the only difference is extend spell. Now 've read all about Junts and his Paladin advice and how DM4 gives more damage than your str mod, but +4 strength=2 damage...then another roadblock! str modifiers to dmg..don't they effect the offhand in a different way than to the main hand?

If that's the case then DM4 is better as it is unaffected by offhand penalties, but I won't be running DM4 the entire mission

Ok please can some smart person help me with some math calculations for helping me determine which is better? Because I don't get how to use the DPS calc(they say its easy, but dang definitely not to me!)

Comparisons are(if any1 wants to help) 46(Horc w/ PA enhancements and no DM4 nad no extend spell) vs 44/42str(Human assuming +3 exceptional is possible) vs 46(Human w/o DM4, but with extend spell)

Another question....is +3 exceptional on an item possible?

[Calebro]

Junts is correct. The differing tiers of DM offer more DPS per stat point than putting then into Str. But again, that's a choice that needs to be made per Paladin, and this is why Paladins are complicated.
It all boils down to whether or not you're the type of player that pays close enough attention to your short term buffs to keep them running or not.

+3 Exc is not possible individually, but +1 and +2 are, so in effect it becomes +3.

[fyzikx]

You could easily start the human with and 18 Str as well. You'd just have to sacrifice some Cha for it, and a point of Dex which is negligible.
H-orc gets 2 AP, human gets 1. So if you start the human at 18 rather than 16, the only difference is whether you end at an odd or even number.
18 +5 levels +1 enhancement = 24 for human. Everything else that you would add could be added to both. That means the H-orc is at an odd number and gets the same modifier. Depending on your gear, that may change and put ypou even again, which is the only time that H-orc has a Str advantage unless you max Str at 20 at creation.

And you can't count the past lives in favor of the H-orc, because they'd favor the human even more. So I say again, if to-hit is an issue for you, human is the better choice.
For pure DPS, the H-orc is the better choice. But you specified that humans have troubles hitting, which a) isn't true, and b) gets amplified on a H-orc because of the PA enhancements.

It's a 36 point build, so you could go:
Str 18
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 14
on a human and get an extra feat, 2 skill points per level, 3 at 8 with a +2, a better to-hit, and *possibly* have a -1 Str mod compared to the H-orc.
But the H-orc will be better DPS. It's a trade-off and a choice that you have to make.

As far as the enhancements, if you wanted to free some up, then you'd be dropping some from Exalted Smite, Extra Smite, and Divine Sacrifice. The first teir of DivSac is plenty, because the biggest benefit of it comes from the extra crit mod at tier one. The few d6's of extra light damage is gravy.
The AP spent on smite enhancements have diminishing returns because of the few smites that you get. You're spending a TON of AP to enhance attacks that you only get a handful of.
If you have the points for them then they're great to have. If you're looking to free some up, they're the first to go.

I think you might be right, human is the better choice, but when I said Humans had a to-hit problem i was referring to the 16str it had(which i've heard is annoying) but then I guess it really boils down to extend spell vs no extend spell and +4dmg per hand with +2 str w/ to hit penalties vs +2 dmg when DM4 is on

[Calebro]

I think you might be right, human is the better choice, but when I said Humans had a to-hit problem i was referring to the 16str it had(which i've heard is annoying) but then I guess it really boils down to extend spell vs no extend spell and +4dmg per hand with +2 str w/ to hit penalties vs +2 dmg when DM4 is on

Even if you started the human at 16 Str and the H-orc at 18, the human still has a better to-hit if the h-orc has the PA enhancements.

[fyzikx]

The 16str bothers me so much because I once saw a post on how TWF Paladins are having a hard time hitting things in epic, and, from experience, I know how frustrating it is to not be able to hit somebody.

In your opinion, does a Paladin have enough turns to keep DM running effectively?

Assuming that I'm able to gear out toons to the teeth and I decide otherwise with the diection i'm going, how much money is it to respec? xD

[Calebro]

Whether to-hit will be an issue will depend on your gear and what content you're running. Some epics have lower to-hit requirements than others.

The number of turns being sufficient to power DM depends on the content as well. More specifically, how plentiful or sparse shrines are within said content. Usually it isn't an issue, but occasionally it is.

Respec'ing enhancements can be done for free every three days once you reach cap.

But I should warn you that you need a 14 Cha for DM1, 16 for DM2, 18 for DM3, and 20 for DM4. These are base numbers, not including enhancements. St starting with a 16 you'd need a +4 tome to get DM4 unless you spent level ups on it. Generally speaking, very few Pallys other than the occasional Drow get to DM4. Some get to DM3, but the average TWF'er only gets to DM2.

[fyzikx]

I actually have 2 +4 charisma tomes, a +4 strength tome, and a+4 intel tome that were useless to me for my past DPS fighter lives until now mwuahahaha that bad luck on tomes has turned into good luck!

[NoidRoid]

I guess you're already committed to TWF with weaponry but this would make a sick THF candidate imo. On a horc you could go 20 STR 8 DEX 14 CON 6 INT 9 WIS 15 CHA and put your final level up into CHA for DM4. Or if you really wanted to go all out dps(you prolly aint tanking much either way to be honest), drop con to 12 and put literally everything else into maxing STR/CHA for DM4 and 20 STR with all level ups going there.

I'd prolly do that if I got a +4 CHA tome on a toon I didn't like, I think it'd be fun to bypass DR on an eSOS with all that max str horc damage and DM4. EO damage on glancing blows as well.


But back to the build posted, I think it looks pretty solid. Horc TWF pally is pretty tough to pull off with all those stats needed but you have the right tomes for the job. I'd definitely take Kopesh prof over extend, the meta is a luxury you can't afford and if prof makes you hit on a 2 vs mobs you normally wouldn't then it's worth it.

I agree with your choice of horc, human is good too but there is a key factor that I havent seen mentioned yet. Much like Barbs, Pally is a class with consistent bonuses to crit multiplier in the form of divine sacrifice and exalted smite IV. Thus any increase in base damage is more effective on a pally than other classes like rangers or rogues etc. A kopesh will crit on a 13+ at 5x damage with exalted smite IV and 17+ at 4x damage with divine sacrifice. So the difference in damage per swing from horc and human is often getting multiplied by 4 or 5 due to the nature of pally dps and becomes all the more crucial.

Extend, extra skills, and human AP options are all nice but I'd take the 4 or 5 base damage from horc with those tomes in the bank.. you will do some nice DPS

[NoidRoid]

I don't know why it took an hour for it to dawn on me that I HAVE A HELF TWF PALLY.. I was only on my 2nd cup of coffee during the previous post, that might have been it

What you really need is a +3 DEX tome, then you could go 18 STR 14 DEX 14 CON 8 INT 8 WIS 15 CHA on a helf with the last level up in CHA for DM 4 and rogue dilly for 3d6 sneak attack damage. Without the DEX tome you'd have to drop STR by one to get DEX to 15, but you could always start like that and LR when you get a >+2 DEX tome on this guy.

Horc would still get ~4 more base damage which is nice but I think the combination of DM4(which someone already pointed out is better than 2 damage from 4 STR because it applies fully to both hands) and rogue dilly on a non-tanking build might be better for sheer DPS. And that's without factoring in human versatility damage.

My helf is a little different, 18/2 monk with deathnips but she frequently pulls aggro(then loses it without SA heh) in part 2 of tod without divine righteousness or any other hate generation. I also have kopesh proficiency for boss beaters, OTWF, Epic Spectral Gloves, and Epic Raven's Eye with a gem.. Hitting is an issue with twf pallys, you may not need to go to such great lengths to hit stuff but missing really stinks and I don't recommend it

[fyzikx]

You just gave me an idea!

I've never seen it before, but I think a good idea for someone interested in going the best route possible who is obsessed with making the best toon possible(like me)

18 1 4 4 2 2 2 2 7 2=44
or
17 1 4 4 2 2 2 2 7 3=44 +2 except from ToD ring and then a except+1 from a GS item....but idk which equipment slot that GS item is gonna be in...

What level can you use +3 tomes?