Crafting Extreme

[Darkrok]

Two points here.

First of all, the story of the 2 month player that is now 90/90/90 crafting is leaving something out. The amount of grind he spent to get there. If he'd spent as much time adventuring as he's spent in the crafting hall he'd already have multiple greensteel items, dual greensteel weapons, and a slew of raid loot. With the crafting grind what it is I'd assume he could have easily capped a character in about 2 weeks w/ the same level of dedication and outside help (probably faster).

Just for the sake of argument let's go with 2 months and 2 weeks in game. After capping that's 60 days of pure raiding/epics at level 20. Let's say he runs nothing but raids and some key epics for those 60 days at cap. He'll most likely have at least one of the key items he wants from each raid at that point. He'll most likely have at least one epic item that he wanted to focus on slotted. Again, we'll probably see a greensteel sp item and a greensteel hp item as well as a greensteel weapon or two (assuming he did some good trading to get there or had some help from friends).

Instead, he's level 16 and he's able to make an item equivalent to the greensteel weapon he'd have anyways. He can do that over and over. But he's still going to be lacking a ton of raid/epic items. It's a tradeoff. He chose the crafting path. The time he put in is roughly equivalent to what it would take to devote enough time to capping in 2 weeks and then running all pertinent raids/epics on timer for 2 months. I think the return, when put in those terms, is fair.

Now the second issue. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the crafting shards don't need to be made harder. The shards of potential do. What does anyone care if I make a +1 longsword of greater lawful outsider bane? Is that breaking the game? Not even remotely. It's the +5 silver holy burst khopeshes of greater lawful outsider bane that need to be closely controlled. You can control those by making the high level shards of potential either timered or prohibitively expensive (without raid or bound named loot).

[Altaweir]

Anyone telling that gaining crafting levels is "too easy" deserves a kick in the teeth.

Try to get to a decent crafting level just by using a low-level toon and you'll see.

Not everyone has level 20 around to generate tons of greater essence just by deconstructing random chest junk.

Not everyone enjoys (admitting he or she even can) grinding countless hours of boring clicking to make hundreds of pointless shards just to have them deconstructed afterwards, rince, repeat.

Valid comment on crafting levelling can only be made by people reaching the top of their own, and they aren't that many. You say your "friend" (competitor seems closer to your perception) is as strong as you. I doubt it. And you probably summarize a bit quickly his "tons of crafting". You should attempt that yourself. Hours of pleasure awaits you.

[Battlehawke]

Guys this project is already dead. Thank Goodness! I think someone at Turbine is either in a lot of trouble or laughing really hard behind closed doors. Clearly this was not the version they intended to release.

[Battlehawke]

Dirac, thanks for "chiming" in. I agree with you there. Like you I have been busy with the TR grind and the Epic Loot grind and it would be nice to kbow that some of that awesome crafting that his been going on will be obtainable by one of my toons when I'm ready for the crafting grind. However, they have posted that it is Beta and everyone knows that Beta comes with many risks. I hope that they don't take away ANY crafted items from anyone or lower their crafting levels. What I would like to see maybe would be Crafting lvls 1-50 are for crafting items for low lvls maybe lvl 1-12 toons and stay pretty much as it has so that new toons can have nice personally tailored gear. Crafting lvls 51-100 for high level toons lvls 13-18 which is similar to what is in place now but be a tad bit harder. Crafting lvls 101-150 be for high end gear for outfitting lvl 19 & 20 toons that could be eventually comparable to Epic gear. This should have an extremely rare ingredient (but not bound). I just dont think lvl 14 toons should be running around with +5 Holy Silver Khops of Greater Outsider Bane. You have been playing for a long time. Do you have one of those or anything like it, that is not crafted?

+1 too as many of you as I could, Iv'e given out too much already today. Will get the rest of you tomorrow that have thrown in useful input.

[Scraap]

Ummmm, isnt that the point of twinking out a toon ?!? To make the content a snooze for that character.

You cannot have a scenario where two characters of, as you put it, massively different power-levels, can have a challenge in the same quest without redoing the diff structure.

Player knowledge is a powerful tool in DDO that some people overlook when pointing out a characters power level. Knowing what to expect and where can allow a normally average character to succeed where a new player would get overwhelmed. How do you nerf player knowledge, weekly lobotomies or electro-shock?

On point 1, we're likely going to have to agree to disagree. For myself, I looked at TR (on the one I've been Tring) as a method of retaining a wide range of challenging content as opposed to the usual race to cap, and for the rest of the content either blow through massively over-level for favor, or constricting myself to a few choice quests for an actual challenge. Those quests around where you walk in knowing without a doubt you will dominate, but do so in order to prep for an actual fun one that makes you sweat a little are some of the toughest ones to self-motivate over.

Point 2 and 3 are actually linked, at least in my mind, since tightening the numerical divide between new folks and old ones in terms of mitigation and output makes things less about gear, and more about going out and experiencing the quests themselves until you know them like the back of your hand. As you say, making it mostly about the actual player's knowledge and reflexes. That make a bit more sense?

[Dirac]

I just dont think lvl 14 toons should be running around with +5 Holy Silver Khops of Greater Outsider Bane. You have been playing for a long time. Do you have one of those or anything like it, that is not crafted?

You make many very reasonable points. I thought about starting a new thread on the above point, but I'll address it here. I do not have one. However, a +5 Holy Silver Khops of Greater Lawful/Evil Outsider Bane isn't objectively that awesome a weapon. However, in the current state of DDO, it is, only because nearly all high level opponents are devils. I think being able to craft that particular weapon under the current crafting rules is fine. We should have had, for two years now, constant production of high level content with mobs other than devils. Then, the +5 Holy Silver Khops of Greater Lawful/Evil Outsider Bane would be a niche weapon whose relative value would be appropriate.

The solution isn't to destroy crafting for nearly everyone because a couple craftable items are relatively overvalued due to the current lack of diversity among high level foes. The solution is more content and let the items decay to their appropriate value over time.

[Postumus]

Anyone telling that gaining crafting levels is "too easy" deserves a kick in the teeth.

Exactly. If I spent the effort and time I did on focusing on the Shroud instead of crafting, I'd have have all the GS and plat I'd ever want.

[Samadhi]

Personally, I really miss the chest lotto that used to be the game before greensteel were created.

Me too.