Crafting Extreme

[Battlehawke]

Hi everyone,

I just want to put a little input here on crafting. I have played this game countless hours for almost six years and have amassed a ton of wealth, uber loot and many high level toons. I have a friend who has been playin for about two months. I don't do much crafting. He does tons of crafting. In two months his crafting levels are ALL in the 90's while his toon is only level 16. While I am happy with his success and actually brag to most about how driven he is, it is a tad frustrating to know that he is walking around with gear (that he created) that is better than all but my most Elite toons. Really after two months of playing? A +4 bonus to Attack Item, 2x +4 holy silver of outsider bane Khopeshs, and many many more incredibly great items? This is incredibly exciting and if the current crafting trend continues then it will make crafting loot far superior to all but the most epic gear.

There needs to be an extreme price for elite crafting gear. Imagine you will the great wizard sitting in the top of his tower, crafting the Dragon Slayer to defeat the great beast that has evaded him for his entire life. There must be a price! He gives up a portion of his soul to complete the greatest weapon of all times. That is how I see it. In the original AD&D if you were ever lucky enough to make a Wish, you lost a point of Constitution (forever). A wizard lost an entire level for Crafting certain weapons. In the hands of a 20 Paladin a +5 Banishing Silver Khopesh of Greater Life Stealing will probably be pretty nasty and will certainly put every other weapon in the game into the crafting machine for grinding. I don't think Turbine will let it go that far, but so far, I think they have been pretty generous. The basic rule should be if you want somethin great, you have to give up something great or work awfully freaking hard at it or a combination of the two. I think that the craftining on Lamania does look a little extreme right now and they will change it with feedback. Help them make it epic, but please, not easy...

[elraido]

Personally, I really miss the chest lotto that used to be the game before greensteel were created.

[Samadhi]

Personally, I really miss the chest lotto that used to be the game before greensteel were created.

Me too.

[rest]

Hi everyone,

I just want to put a little input here on crafting. I have played this game countless hours for almost six years and have amassed a ton of wealth, uber loot and many high level toons. I have a friend who has been playin for about two months. I don't do much crafting. He does tons of crafting. In two months his crafting levels are ALL in the 90's while his toon is only level 16. While I am happy with his success and actually brag to most about how driven he is, it is a tad frustrating to know that he is walking around with gear (that he created) that is better than all but my most Elite toons. Really after two months of playing? A +4 bonus to Attack Item, 2x +4 holy silver of outsider bane Khopeshs, and many many more incredibly great items? This is incredibly exciting and if the current crafting trend continues then it will make crafting loot far superior to all but the most epic gear.

There needs to be an extreme price for elite crafting gear. Imagine you will the great wizard sitting in the top of his tower, crafting the Dragon Slayer to defeat the great beast that has evaded him for his entire life. There must be a price! He gives up a portion of his soul to complete the greatest weapon of all times. That is how I see it. In the original AD&D if you were ever lucky enough to make a Wish, you lost a point of Constitution (forever). A wizard lost an entire level for Crafting certain weapons. In the hands of a 20 Paladin a +5 Banishing Silver Khopesh of Greater Life Stealing will probably be pretty nasty and will certainly put every other weapon in the game into the crafting machine for grinding. I don't think Turbine will let it go that far, but so far, I think they have been pretty generous. The basic rule should be if you want somethin great, you have to give up something great or work awfully freaking hard at it or a combination of the two. I think that the craftining on Lamania does look a little extreme right now and they will change it with feedback. Help them make it epic, but please, not easy...

Why does it matter what he is using compared to you? If you've been playing for 6 years and you don't think about the FUN you've had playing and only about the GEAR you have collected so far, maybe you're looking at it wrong.

In a PvE game, the better gear he has, the better off your party will be.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

Why does it matter what he is using compared to you? If you've been playing for 6 years and you don't think about the FUN you've had playing and only about the GEAR you have collected so far, maybe you're looking at it wrong.

In a PvE game, the better gear he has, the better off your party will be.

Why not just give out epics then? Free epics when you turn 20.

[tdocxxericxx]

Why not just give out epics then? Free epics when you turn 20.

/agreed. Bring back Crystal cove

[rest]

Why not just give out epics then? Free epics when you turn 20.

No one gave him the ability to craft those items. He did a grind for it. A different grind than raids/epics, but a grind none the less.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

No one gave him the ability to craft those items. He did a grind for it. A different grind than raids/epics, but a grind none the less.

Raids/epics have lockouts though, crafting does not. Crafting also has some serious shortcuts that can be taken while raids/epics do not. How often does a whole guild give all their shroud mats (for example) to one guy/gal and then when they make their min2 they can make min2 for the whole guild?

Its fubar compared to the loot paradigm preceding it. Hawke is dead on.

[Scraap]

Why does it matter what he is using compared to you? If you've been playing for 6 years and you don't think about the FUN you've had playing and only about the GEAR you have collected so far, maybe you're looking at it wrong.

In a PvE game, the better gear he has, the better off your party will be.

As far as that goes, the prevalence of a minimum expected type of gear, based not on player demands, but based on just how easy it is to get a certain level of gear, does actually impact everyone.

Consider a geared up tr vs a 28 pointer fresh off the boat. Massively different power-levels there, and the 1-19 quests at lest, need to take that into account and make it so the 28 pointer can complete successfully.

Right now, they also have to account for the notion that that 28 pointer will be far, far less likely to be optimally geared, making a TR'd, twinked out toon running those same quests snooze.

So by extension of that last sentence, Ive said it before, and I'll say it again: The sooner the markets are flooded with min-level useful gear, the sooner quests across the board can be amped back on up a bit instead of constantly easy-buttoned. (Yes, I'm suggesting that one 'easy button' can in fact be used to obliterate another. Vile Heresy, I know.)

[Fomori]

Right now, they also have to account for the notion that that 28 pointer will be far, far less likely to be optimally geared, making a TR'd, twinked out toon running those same quests snooze.

Ummmm, isnt that the point of twinking out a toon ?!? To make the content a snooze for that character.

Consider a geared up tr vs a 28 pointer fresh off the boat. Massively different power-levels there, and the 1-19 quests at lest, need to take that into account and make it so the 28 pointer can complete successfully.

You cannot have a scenario where two characters of, as you put it, massively different power-levels, can have a challenge in the same quest without redoing the diff structure.

Player knowledge is a powerful tool in DDO that some people overlook when pointing out a characters power level. Knowing what to expect and where can allow a normally average character to succeed where a new player would get overwhelmed. How do you nerf player knowledge, weekly lobotomies or electro-shock?

[Scraap]

Ummmm, isnt that the point of twinking out a toon ?!? To make the content a snooze for that character.

You cannot have a scenario where two characters of, as you put it, massively different power-levels, can have a challenge in the same quest without redoing the diff structure.

Player knowledge is a powerful tool in DDO that some people overlook when pointing out a characters power level. Knowing what to expect and where can allow a normally average character to succeed where a new player would get overwhelmed. How do you nerf player knowledge, weekly lobotomies or electro-shock?

On point 1, we're likely going to have to agree to disagree. For myself, I looked at TR (on the one I've been Tring) as a method of retaining a wide range of challenging content as opposed to the usual race to cap, and for the rest of the content either blow through massively over-level for favor, or constricting myself to a few choice quests for an actual challenge. Those quests around where you walk in knowing without a doubt you will dominate, but do so in order to prep for an actual fun one that makes you sweat a little are some of the toughest ones to self-motivate over.

Point 2 and 3 are actually linked, at least in my mind, since tightening the numerical divide between new folks and old ones in terms of mitigation and output makes things less about gear, and more about going out and experiencing the quests themselves until you know them like the back of your hand. As you say, making it mostly about the actual player's knowledge and reflexes. That make a bit more sense?

[wisdomstorment]

While I agree that crafting high-level stuff shouldn't be too easy, I think requiring raid loot to do so isn't a good solution. As everyone has pointed out, it effectively kills the sharing of raid loot and encourages hoarding because "it might come in handy for crafting one day".

Perhaps introducing new very rare ingredients that are specific to each item and are random drops anywhere in the game would be more ideal.

- Random so they can't be farmed on specific quests, the more you quest, the better your odds of getting one.

- Unbound so that an economy can develop around them.

- Transmutable so they can be converted into other forms (eg - 20 Halfling Bane slivers = 1 Dragon Bane sliver).

Just an idea. Though at this point, anything's better than what they've got in 10.1.

[Gauthaag]

in DnD 3.5 u need only one craft feat, mediocre lvl and some minor spell to be able to craft any bane u wish. and the bane is +2 enchantment....so whats the problem? no need to care about 2nd Ed ADnD.

top level shards should be hard to obtain, but way its presented on lamma is simply fail.

[tman]

Personally, I really miss the chest lotto that used to be the game before greensteel were created.

Agree

[Marewood]

Disagree.

While your friend may have gotten to CL 90 within two months he most certainly hasnt gotten there by his own efforts. That is he must have had a lot of help & support from friends and guildies (items, plat, ings, etc.).

I have been playing for several years, and i am quite well euipped - and believe me - I already have invested a fortune in crafting. My CLs currently linger around 60. I could have gotten higher but that would have taken even more time, effort and ressources.

Crafting is already a painful grind. Your newbee friend getting to level 90 within 2 months of playing this game is in no way representative for the majority of the players. He is the rare exception not the rule.

[Stormanne]

Me thinks the big problem is less the crafting, but the fact that you can out craft your level. In my opinion, I think there should be a cap on how high a character can get their crafting level based on their character level. That way, a level six character cannot be crafting level 100 equipment. Maybe make it so you can only advance five crafting levels per character level. By the time you hit 20, you're good to go for that final five level push. I say this knowing full well that I would be shooting myself in the foot, seeing how my crafting character is a level 6 bard that hasn't set foot out of the crafting hall since it went live...just thinking out loud here

[Lissyl]

Me thinks the big problem is less the crafting, but the fact that you can out craft your level. In my opinion, I think there should be a cap on how high a character can get their crafting level based on their character level. That way, a level six character cannot be crafting level 100 equipment. Maybe make it so you can only advance five crafting levels per character level. By the time you hit 20, you're good to go for that final five level push. I say this knowing full well that I would be shooting myself in the foot, seeing how my crafting character is a level 6 bard that hasn't set foot out of the crafting hall since it went live...just thinking out loud here

I was actually very surprised to find out this wasn't the case. This seems almost...obvious, in terms of a solution. I mean, ML's will carry you to a certain point, but c'mon already.

[Battlehawke]

Elraido..that seems like such a long time ago. It was fun, new and chaotic!

[Battlehawke]

Rest, you have a very valid point. I appreciate the input. In the right political situation you would thrive, especially with the right mob behind you. The ultimate point of the post was not what he has, but how easy it is to get it. I'm extremely happy and a ton of people on my server are reaping the benifits of his hard work. He is a very miticulous, industrious, and intelligent person with a ton of drive and motivation. There has to be a balance between crafting loot and quested loot though. I seriously do not agree with btc or bta quest loot being needed for crafting, I still think it needs to be harder. I like a good challenge.

[Battlehawke]

Wisdomstorment is on to something. It sounds like he's got the right idea. Thanks for your input and Widom. I hope tge Devs read what you wrote. It makes a lot of sense. I think they might be a tad timid though because of the complaints about the amount of collectables an ingredients currently in game and the lack of and poor access to storage of them. They arw working on it though and thats a great sign.