Weapon finesse suggestion to make it viable

[svinja]

Making finesse competitive in damage would make dex wis monks and monk splash AC builds overpowered. I would immediately LR my paladin into a dex based monk splash. The fact that a finesse pure ranger or rogue is underpowered compared to a STR one is not because finesse is bad, it's because the person went for finesse on a build that doesn't really benefit from dex. If neither the extra AC nor reflex is needed on your build, then it is simply a mistake to go finesse. For such builds, finesse is just the easy way out of the character creation stat distribution interface, because it leaves a nice amount of points for other stats.

Str - damage
Dex - AC, reflex, TWF feats

Seems fine to me. If you do not need the AC and reflex, then don't go dex based. If it's a TWF build, suck it up and put the needed points into both strength and dex, or simply accept that you will do lower damage. I agree that AC should work better in epics, but I don't agree that finesse should be so powerful that it becomes viable even for builds who don't benefit from the AC. The AC benefit is there, it can't be ignored, if your build doesn't utilize it then it was simply a mistake to go finesse.

[t0r012]

Svinja,
The point is there are no builds left where finesse has any benefit or dare I even say it, gimps the build.
The last holdout to a viable finesse build was a dex/ wis finesse monk and that went away with the last update.
Now there isn't a single build that can use finesse to anywhere near worth using a feat for finesse.

[Bodic]

Would make rapier better than khopesh by about 3% at the same cost (1 feat).

While I wouldn't mind this, people will rage about their lit2 khopeshes now being "useless".

I would approve of the nerdrage for certain.
There are still some small advantages to being a dex based right now, DPS is not the only thing out there reguardless of what people say.

[Aesop]

I think you have to be a tad bit eccentric to pour over Medieval European fight manuals and reconstruct the arts within, or for that matter, design and program a computer game.

yeah he's right up there on that list

http://www.stmichaelssalle.com/images/tobler-bw.jpg

[Aesop]

I would approve of the nerdrage for certain.
There are still some small advantages to being a dex based right now, DPS is not the only thing out there reguardless of what people say.

Like what?

[killerzee25]

I rather find Chai's idea better.

Make strength the damage stat and dexterity the accuracy stat (to-hit). This way weapon finesse would become obsolete and maybe some other feats as well.

I can just imagine if this was implemented every single barbarian, non twf fighter and pally would be absolutely crippled by this.

Though it would be nice for the combat system to reflect real life it nether follows the d&d version this game is based on nor is it something that could be implemented without breaking most things currently in the game

[RJBsComputer]

Okay, time to rain on someone's parade. If you have not read the Rogue Forums then you would not know the two biggest hot button issues are Rapier vs Khopesh and STR vs DEX. The lines are drawn equally. You could say the Real arguement is how to spend that one feat - Weapon Finess or Khopesh Pro.

Here is a short version of all of the threads I have read on the topic(arguemet)

STR vs DEX - about 5 points in DPS difference

Rapier vs Khopesh - about 3 points in DPS difference

(it all depends on who you have run the math for you)

But now here is where something that only Rogues have that no other class has - Sneak Atttack Damage. SA is the big equalizer. So you well never know what type of Rogue you are really playing with. But if you do figure it out....Well we Rogues have s "special" gift for you ;-)

[Raithe]

SA is the big equalizer.

There is some truth here. The less damage you do (generally), the more sneak attacks you get and the more damage you do. This is true even if you are sporting subtle backstabbing enhancements or threat reduction gear.

It would be interesting to find out what combination of sneak-attack/damage-to-aggro proved to be the most efficient against sneak-attackable mobs with lots of hit points, assuming all melee attackers had identical damage profiles.

[Monkey_Archer]

Attack speed increases were removed/replaced by doublestrike in the name of fixing lag... so they likey won't ever be added again.

A 10-20% increase is way over the top... you're assuming ALL finesse builds automatically have terrible dps (which isnt true if you have roughly the same str/dex for some builds) 10-20% might be balanced for 40 dex/16 str gimps, but more common 36dex/30str builds are not that far behind.

I'd propose that weapon finesse instead grants a 3% doublestrike, and only if dex is actually higher then strength (to prevent str based builds from just taking it for the doublestrike).

[SiliconShadow]

I think if anything it should give 1/4 your dexterity bonus to double strike for exotic weapons, martial weapons and unarmed and a 1/4 dexterity bonus to double strike + 1/2 dexterity bonus to attack speed to simple weapons.

so a 40 dexterity monk would get:
+5% to double strike

A 40 dexterity assasin would get:
+5% to double strike with rapiers
+5% to double strike and +10% to attack speed with daggers

[NaturalHazard]

Ive got quite a few forms under by belt currently, from double dagger to chinese broadsword, and I can say that neither of those weapons is moving faster or slower than the other. Its not like slap boxing or tag where all you have to do is come into contact with the opponent - there needs to be the same kind of force behind a dagger as there is a long sword for it to do damage. To do that you have to apply the same types of techniques to get that force.

The best thing they could have thought of back in the 70s while dreaming all this stuff up is make dex the to hit stat and str the damage stat. I dont care if youre using a claymore or a pole arm, the more dexterous people have an easier time using weapons of even those larger weights, not those who are stronger. Technique trumps strength. Knowing how to rotate the waist to use the human body as a fulcrum is key, regardless if the weapon weighs 6 ounces, or 25 pounds.

This is so true, agility and balance way more important than just plain strength, also when people see strong atheletes they just focus on their strength they dont see how nimble these guys are and how good they are with technique.

And also technique and stamina also very important for fighting, hehe casters have a blue bar to limmit them, but it would make it more life like if every class had say a green bar, that limmited physical exercise, after a while it takes up a lot of energy to swing weapons, run around jump. But I dont think I would like this lol. Its true what you said about the weapons being around the same speed, but I bet that the lighter ones you can use longer without getting tired maybe?

[phum]

Imo the main problem with finesse is the amount of str boni that are actually quite hard to avoid. And of course there is no reason to avoid them because they increase your dmg. So finesse builds even with a dump statted str end up with almost no benefit from finesse. Of course this is also because there are not that many ways to get dex boni.

The ac question is a separate 1. Leveling a finesse build is fine (survivability is good), but in the end gearing choices tend to negate the benefits. Maybe making moderate ac useful at end game would affect the gearing choices, but that remains to be seen IF they ever get to making an ac pass. In the meanwhile.. it wouldn't hurt to do something for finesse. E.g. finesse weapons always use dex for to-hit (maybe for dmg too) and give 2/4% doublestrike based on whether the weapon is light. Quite sure this suggestion or something like it has been made before.

[bloodnose13]

probably easier would be to get a finesse feat change to give a double strike chance, if i remember right double strike was to replace most of the attack speed enchancements.

[Jrstevenson07]

Attack speed increases were removed/replaced by doublestrike in the name of fixing lag... so they likey won't ever be added again.

A 10-20% increase is way over the top... you're assuming ALL finesse builds automatically have terrible dps (which isnt true if you have roughly the same str/dex for some builds) 10-20% might be balanced for 40 dex/16 str gimps, but more common 36dex/30str builds are not that far behind.

I'd propose that weapon finesse instead grants a 3% doublestrike, and only if dex is actually higher then strength (to prevent str based builds from just taking it for the doublestrike).

There is no lag in DDO. It is all on your machine.
There was lag when they still had the attack speed enhancements, but they are gone and so is the lag.
sarcasm over.

If faster attack speed is truely the cause of the lag, then my time enjoying fighter haste boost IV is nearly over, and the sorcs that dont prep the haste spell have been right all along.

10-20% might not be as over the top as you think. Keep in mind that by going weapon finesse you will need to put more into dex than str to be able to hit anything, thereby loseing dps via the lesser str score. to try and balance our the two stats you lose on to hit. even so the percentage could be dropped as long as it is to the point of keeping it viable still.

[Chai]

I can just imagine if this was implemented every single barbarian, non twf fighter and pally would be absolutely crippled by this.

Though it would be nice for the combat system to reflect real life it nether follows the d&d version this game is based on nor is it something that could be implemented without breaking most things currently in the game

Im not so sure they would be crippled in todays DDO, heh. Right now barbarians sit at ~80 str for a decently geared but not over the top toon. I have seen some who are in the 90s and many who have not hit the shroud yet are in the mid 60s. Using 80 as the base number, if a barbarian had to max DEX to get a decent to hit, it would mean starting the toon with 2 less points of str so for a human thats starting at 16, then they would put all their level ups into dex rather than str, which is 5 more points. So far we are at a 7 point difference.

So the 80 sustainable str barbarian now only has a mere 73 str, heh.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

What feat book are you referring to? (I suspect you're not actually talking about D&D 3.5 rules)

Sorry, forgot to follow this thread. It was called The Feat Handbook. It was literally nothing but hundreds of optional feats for 3.5e. One of my players bought it and asked if I would let them use it, and I told them on a case by case basis. One I allowed was the one I mentioned.