Weapon finesse suggestion to make it viable

[Jrstevenson07]

As a way to make it viable, and to make dex bills actually worth considering again, I suggest that a finessible weapon, when coupled with the feat itself, receives a bonus to attack speed.

no, they wont be doing more damage per hit, but they will definitely be doing more hits. It would almost make more sense for the bonus to be different for each weapon, as i dont see how anyone can swing a rapier faster than a dagger.

So, for example (i know these arent the only finesse weapons)
Rapier: Bonus 10% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.
Shortsword: Bonus 15% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.
Dagger: Bonus 20% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.

EDIT: After re-reading the feat description, my suggestion must also include that when useing weapon finesse and a finesse weapon, your dex modifier is what determines your attack roll regardless of which is higher between dex and str.

Honestly allowing somone to have weapon finesse and still use str modifier for light weapons is just plain silly. It's more a waste than power critical or skill focus swim, so this addition to my proposal shouldnt be seen as going to far.

[Truga]

Rapier: Bonus 10% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.

Would make rapier better than khopesh by about 3% at the same cost (1 feat).

While I wouldn't mind this, people will rage about their lit2 khopeshes now being "useless".

[Chai]

As a way to make it viable, and to make dex bills actually worth considering again, I suggest that a finessible weapon, when coupled with the feat itself, receives a bonus to attack speed.

no, they wont be doing more damage per hit, but they will definitely be doing more hits. It would almost make more sense for the bonus to be different for each weapon, as i dont see how anyone can swing a rapier faster than a dagger.

So, for example (i know these arent the only finesse weapons)
Rapier: Bonus 10% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.
Shortsword: Bonus 15% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.
Dagger: Bonus 20% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.

Ive got quite a few forms under by belt currently, from double dagger to chinese broadsword, and I can say that neither of those weapons is moving faster or slower than the other. Its not like slap boxing or tag where all you have to do is come into contact with the opponent - there needs to be the same kind of force behind a dagger as there is a long sword for it to do damage. To do that you have to apply the same types of techniques to get that force.

The best thing they could have thought of back in the 70s while dreaming all this stuff up is make dex the to hit stat and str the damage stat. I dont care if youre using a claymore or a pole arm, the more dexterous people have an easier time using weapons of even those larger weights, not those who are stronger. Technique trumps strength. Knowing how to rotate the waist to use the human body as a fulcrum is key, regardless if the weapon weighs 6 ounces, or 25 pounds.

[Lissyl]

Would make rapier better than khopesh by about 3% at the same cost (1 feat).

While I wouldn't mind this, people will rage about their lit2 khopeshes now being "useless".

Anytime an item becomes so widespread that the vast majority of builds has it...it should be rendered 'not the ultimate', imo. Not made useless, but brought down from the level of 'dumb not to have'.

Just my opinion, of course, and not meant to be a stab at anyone in particular. Just a balancing thought, I guess.

[IONDragonx]

Ive got quite a few forms under by belt currently, from double dagger to chinese broadsword, and I can say that neither of those weapons is moving faster or slower than the other. Its not like slap boxing or tag where all you have to do is come into contact with the opponent - there needs to be the same kind of force behind a dagger as there is a long sword for it to do damage. To do that you have to apply the same types of techniques to get that force.

The best thing they could have thought of back in the 70s while dreaming all this stuff up is make dex the to hit stat and str the damage stat. I dont care if youre using a claymore or a pole arm, the more dexterous people have an easier time using weapons of even those larger weights, not those who are stronger. Technique trumps strength. Knowing how to rotate the waist to use the human body as a fulcrum is key, regardless if the weapon weighs 6 ounces, or 25 pounds.

Everything that you said about RL is true. However, you should look up the history of DnD and get a good laugh about the nonsense that it was based upon. The old red box had so much of it, the edges were brown. To the old timers, need I mention: PPD, RSW or BW? Why is DR and AC even in the same game? Aren't they both supposed to be "armor"? Other junk like that.

[Jrstevenson07]

Would make rapier better than khopesh by about 3% at the same cost (1 feat).

While I wouldn't mind this, people will rage about their lit2 khopeshes now being "useless".

Does this take into account that a weapon finesse user will have a lower STR?

I've never been good at calculating DPS, so i typicaly dont try.

[Cauthey]

Allow it to also include:

Crafting Altar Finesse
Your dexterity is such that you can wrangle a crafting altar and make it combine ingredients without having to includ rare pieces of raid loot or costly ability tomes.

That would make Weapon Finesse viable in update 10.1.

[Truga]

Aren't they both supposed to be "armor"? Other junk like that.

In D&D, if the enemy hits you into an armored spot, you receive no damage at all. This is why AC effectively negates all damage if the enemy's to hit is too low. Can't hit between the armor's joints? Too bad, you did 0 damage.

DR is a "body enhancement", as in, the ability of the person to resist physical damage, either by physical training (barbarians), or due to spells (stoneskin), or as a racial feature (outsiders).

They both offer a form of protection, but in a different way.

[Truga]

Does this take into account that a weapon finesse user will have a lower STR?

I've never been good at calculating DPS, so i typicaly dont try.

Why lower STR? Weapon finesse needs 13 DEX. GTWF requires 17. I see no reason to take less STR than I did before.

Edit: Unless you mean finesse won't increase attack speed unless dex is higher than STR? In that case, this doesn't do much for most builds, due to the fact that one can get str from a base 14 into the 40s, while max dex + enhacements + levelups + gear + tome and you'll hit what 42? 44?

So yeah, the only builds this would work very well on is the low str high dex ones. Unfortunately, they'll still do much much less damage than anyone else.

[Phidius]

I just wish that getting a good defense wasn't such a waste of time.

Having said that, I guess changing Weapon Finesse to be a DPS feat would at least be in line with how Turbine wants us to play the game...

OK, fine. Leave the mobs with a +100000000 to hit, and change the defensive stuff to add to our DPS.

Deflection (Protection +5, etc...): redirects a portion of the damage back to the source.
Natural Armor: redirects a percentage of the damage back to the source.
Insight: gives a +X% chance to do a riposte.

help me out with some other ideas, here... I'm running dry.

[Luxx0r]

Allow it to also include:

Crafting Altar Finesse
Your dexterity is such that you can wrangle a crafting altar and make it combine ingredients without having to includ rare pieces of raid loot or costly ability tomes.

That would make Weapon Finesse viable in update 10.1.

Impresive, most impresive... XD

+1 to you sir.

[Rheebus]

I like any ideas that encourage people to try different things out and that support a multitude of "good builds." There should be ways to make daggers a good weapon to specialize in. I am fine with leaving Khopeshes as the penultimate DPS weapon, but I think other weapon styles should be improved to make them nearly as good. Daggers do a lot less base damage than khopeshes. Maybe making them faster is a good way to start providing a road for players to build around them.

Unfortunately, uber builds are usually dependent on minute differences between this weapon or that weapon, this feat or that one. When one is changed it can often create ripple effects into many builds and playstyles. It seems weapon finesse has fallen out of favor, but there are may feats that have gone unused since the game was created. We aren't hearing a resounding chorus of change Lightning Reflexes to do X, Y, or Z. Weapon Finesse enjoyed a stretch of popularity and continues to be used by some for certain builds.

Maybe the answer is changing Weapon Focus to its current +1 to hit to having an additional benefit that depends on the weapon you focus on. The only reason ost folks take this feat is because it is a prerequisite for other, much stronger feats and enhancements. Weapon Focus: Daggers might increase your speed with daggers, Weapon Focus: Light Hammer may give a small bonus to Sap, etc...

Creating new roads to greatness increases the opportunities for diversity in the end game.

[smyter]

Ive got quite a few forms under by belt currently, from double dagger to chinese broadsword, and I can say that neither of those weapons is moving faster or slower than the other. Its not like slap boxing or tag where all you have to do is come into contact with the opponent - there needs to be the same kind of force behind a dagger as there is a long sword for it to do damage. To do that you have to apply the same types of techniques to get that force.

The best thing they could have thought of back in the 70s while dreaming all this stuff up is make dex the to hit stat and str the damage stat. I dont care if youre using a claymore or a pole arm, the more dexterous people have an easier time using weapons of even those larger weights, not those who are stronger. Technique trumps strength. Knowing how to rotate the waist to use the human body as a fulcrum is key, regardless if the weapon weighs 6 ounces, or 25 pounds.

I respectly disagree with some of your arguement.
I can definately swing a dagger several times in the time it would take me to swing and recover a greataxe or maul. Furthermore, weapons do different damage for a reason. If I put all my force into and 8 oz hammer, I will not do the same damage as the same force behind a 16 pound sledge hammer. But I can definately swing the hammer more times within a minute.

[Chai]

I respectly disagree with some of your arguement.
I can definately swing a dagger several times in the time it would take me to swing and recover a greataxe or maul. Furthermore, weapons do different damage for a reason. If I put all my force into and 8 oz hammer, I will not do the same damage as the same force behind a 16 pound sledge hammer. But I can definately swing the hammer more times within a minute.

No you would not be able to and still maintain the same force to do the same damage.

Swing the hammer, yes, swing it with as much strength and lethal technique behind it, no. The weapon is the human body, the force is the waist used as a fulcrum, and the hammer is merely an extension of that fulcrum with an impact point on it.

There are grandmasters who can do double broadsword forms as fast as they do double dagger forms. Then they do their double hammer form (chinese hammer weapon resembles an english mace) and those swing just as fast. Its all about economy of movement that the non combat trained human mind does not understand.

If you are using a smaller weapon you can strike faster to make contact faster, but that contact will not maintain the same level of force, because the weapon is not the factor here, the human body is. Flourishing is not striking. The user can wave the blade around in all kinds of pretty little patterns all they want, but the actual strike when done correctly applies force from the waist rotating and the rest of the body acting like a set of gears, multiplying the force behind the strike.

What you are falling for here is that "contact" equals meeting the goal of the attack, which is false. It isnt a game of tag where the weapon merely needs to contact the opponent like a fencing match, its using the human waist as a fulcrum to deliver enough force to do the damage. Dagger, longsword, pole arm, closed fist, it matters not. The human torso is moving the same to generate the force needed regardless of the weight of the weapon.

This is why 5 foot 0 inch tall japanese men could cut through a roll of carpeting diagonally and cleanly with a weapon, hand that weapon off to a football player, who cant even get halfway through it. They could grab a claymore (supposedly a better weapon for a man of larger stature) if they wanted to, and not generate enough force, if they arent using the proper technique.

its obvious that the designers had no martial experience and did minimal research when using str as the to hit stat. The game was more of a single player version of chainmail which is a medeival risk like game. There are RPGs who use a dex stat (physical prowess for example) for to hit and str stat for damage, and they are more balanced for not being able to dump 4 out of 6 stats and still be effective. Go figure. The irony here of course is that they used monk wisdom stat to add to certain characteristics and abilities that monks have. Someone familiarized themselves with japanese/korean mythology at some point, but it was long after the decision was made to use str mod for to-hit as well as damage.

Of course that being said, in 2.0 they tried to use an initiative system which incorporated the size of the weapon into the modification of the roll, as well as the dex mod. This was the closest they got to what the OP is talking about here in D&D. Segmented combat in my opinion was more accurate than the movement-standard-full-free action combat system 3.5 used. It was also alot more involved. It still didnt give dagger users a faster ROF then sword users, it just let them go first in the round more often than not.

[Truga]

Post

You're missing the point here. There's a reason a dagger does d4 and a greataxe does d12. If you swing both with the same force, they should do the same (well, similar, greataxe will obviously do more damage if it connects just right, which is seen in it's x3 multiplier) damage. Since a dagger does so much less damage, it should by that same logic, hit faster.

Edit: From the other point of view: If you apply the same amount of force onto a dagger, you'll swing it much faster. It'll hit your opponent before he even accelerates his greataxe up to speed.

[Jrstevenson07]

Why lower STR? Weapon finesse needs 13 DEX. GTWF requires 17. I see no reason to take less STR than I did before.

Edit: Unless you mean finesse won't increase attack speed unless dex is higher than STR? In that case, this doesn't do much for most builds, due to the fact that one can get str from a base 14 into the 40s, while max dex + enhacements + levelups + gear + tome and you'll hit what 42? 44?

So yeah, the only builds this would work very well on is the low str high dex ones. Unfortunately, they'll still do much much less damage than anyone else.

When you have weapon finesse it uses your dex modifier instead of your str for attack rolls. so i suppose you could have a higher str but you wouldnt be hitting anything.
EDIT: Actually took another look. aparently it takes the higher of either str or dex. As that would be WAY too overpowerd then i would say while changeing the feat the feat to increase weapon speed, also change it so that it uses dex modifier for attack rolls, regardless of which is higher.
Honestly, allowing somone to have weapon finesse and still use str modifier for light weapons is just plain silly. It's more a waste than power critical or skill focus swim, so this addition to my proposal shouldnt be seen as going to far.

[Truga]

When you have weapon finesse it uses your dex modifier instead of your str for attack rolls. so i suppose you could have a higher str but you wouldnt be hitting anything.

Actually, it currently just uses the higher one. Changing it to always use dex might work. :P

Edit:I wouldn't really call it overpowered. 10% dps increase for 1 feat isn't that much. I think PA gives more than that...

[Dilbon]

Allow weapon finesse to use dex for both to hit and damage.

Make quarterstaffs finessable.

Make all daggers automatically finessable whether you have the feat or not.

[Xenostrata]

I like this idea, but it still puts rapier a little too far ahead and leaves others too far behind.

Why not make it all one handed finessable weapons (rapiers and unarmed) get +5-7% attack speed
All light weapons get +18-20% attack speed
All "exceptionally small" weapons (daggers, kukri, light hammers - weapons that look cool but are seriously gimped) gain 25-30% increased attack speed.

I'd also like staves included as one handed weapons, and become finessable with the feat. It may not be inherently light, but it is as a weapon more about technique than just swinging randomly and hoping you hit hard enough to get past defenses.

[diamabel]

I rather find Chai's idea better.

Make strength the damage stat and dexterity the accuracy stat (to-hit). This way weapon finesse would become obsolete and maybe some other feats as well.


D&D rules were designed with round based combat in mind and a round representing a minute of game time. Characters had a defined number of attacks (defined by class, level and other criteria) where each attack has a chance of inflicting a defined amount of damage on the target. As the rules work with abstractions that doesn't mean that a level 1 fighter does have only 1 attack per round. It really means that during that time (1 round or 1 minute) the opponents exchange several strikes where each are parrying or evading the other's hits.

DDO has already sped up combat quite a lot. I can't avoid the image of a hamster on speed when adding more attacks per "round".

In old style D&D combatants with small or light weapons had the chance of attacking first (depending on weapon speed and initiative roll). That is a real advantage in round based combat. They didn't get additional attacks for using such weapons. Again this doesn't translate well to real-time combat.


p.s.
No matter what you do the rules will reflect some abstractions. If you want the combat to mimic real life combat you'd have to ditch quite a lot of the legacy rules.