PnP Riddles and Puzzles

[Sigava]

I had a party wipe, I should have kept it, but I did not feel like dealing with the party wipe and starting over the following week from scratch.

...

Any other DM ever do that, to save thier campaign?

I had something similar once.

The party was storming a completely optional Shadow Dragon's lair. They knew they were storming a shadow dragon's lair, and were given the opportunity to literally look up what a shadow dragon is capable of (read: breath weapon inflicts negative levels) for a whole week between sessions. They knew for a fact (and had discussed among themselves) that this thing WOULD pile tons of negative levels on them if they didn't prepare properly.

They worked their way through the myriad layers of raid guardians and defenses. They reached a point that quite clearly seemed to be the entrance to its horde/sleeping room, where it was pretty obvious the dragon would be on the other side. The smartest player (druid) even cast the spell Omen of Peril regarding the course of action of going through the door, which only has 3 options: Safety, Peril, and Great Peril where your very life is at risk. The answer was of course Great Peril since there was a dragon on the other side. The group then proceeded to MOCK him for casting the spell. One of the other smart players asked about death ward, since they knew they needed it since they knew they were fighting a dragon known to pass out tons of negative levels, which death ward prevents. One of the TWO clerics responded with "I didn't memorize any death wards cause I have a mass death ward memorized." Only he refused to cast it on them before going through the door since the duration is only 1 round/level instead of 1 minute/level like the single target version. The other cleric didn't even have any memorized.

So after mocking the druid for giving them a clear and definitive warning that there's a bloody shadow dragon on the other side of the door (technically a wall that they would ddoor past), he refused to cast mass death ward because OMG what if there isn't a shadow dragon and he wastes his one and only death ward since he didn't memorize any long lasting ones? So they shift to the other side, into the big cave where lo-and-behold there's an ancient shadow dragon lying on its horde. If you think the cleric would cast death ward now, you're a far smarter individual then him. Instead of casting the mass death ward then when the group is nice and grouped up for it, he sprints ahead of the group (using an activation of swift expeditious retreat on his boots) and casts a sunburst cause he wanted to dispel some of the darkness spells around the lair.

So then after he sprinted away from the group, having used up the round where the dragon was standing up and hasting itself, he then yells at the group to gather up on him so he can death ward them since he only has the one memorization and no two targets can be more than 20 feet apart, and readies an action to cast mass death ward when all party members are in range. So about 2/3rds of the group gets in range (packed in nice and tight since they have to be for the spell), and the dragon's turn comes around so I naturally have it move into range and hit them with a 50 foot cone of negative levels, 8 on a failed reflex save of over 30, 4 on a successful reflex save.

So guess what happens to the memorized spells of a cleric barely able to cast 8th level spells when he gets hit for 4-8 negative levels? Naturally they lose their 8th level spells, on top of the penalties to hit points, saves, skill checks, caster level checks, the works. And what level is mass death ward? 8th level. So he starts *****ing and moaning about how he lost his mass death ward and blah blah blah it's everyone's fault but his.

I'm left in a situation where I either let the battle progress and guarantee a total party wipe and an end to that campaign, or I change something about the encounter. I don't think I've ever been so ****ed at a party (the 2 clerics in particular), that they basically forced me into a situation through the grossest collection of stupidity I've ever seen to either wipe the party or give them a pass. I specifically use the players-roll-all-the-dice rules variant to generally remove the possibility of my flubbing dice rolls behind the screen in their favor.

So after the negative levels have been resolved and the two clerics in particular are just whining whining whining about how it's hopeless we're doomed omg this isn't fair how should we have known blah blah blah, I come up with the lamest and most blatantly obvious lie I've ever told at the table, that "Oops, I forgot about the dragon's first initiative roll that was a 2, and accidentally rerolled its initiative to 12." They were allowed to undo the negative levels, and after they barely survived the encounter (there were some other pretty stupid decisions made, such as using a standard action to make a spot check with a spot score of +4 rather than healing the goliath who was at 12 hit points), I basically didn't give them any treasure or experience for the fight, due to the dragon they fought having been a simulacrum sitting on a dummy horde as one last layer of lair guardian (encounter originally would have netted them a ton of experience and wealth back when it was a real dragon). The players didn't think twice about how the dragon seemed to take on a crystalline structure and disintegrated when it died, they were too excited about piling the million or so coins (it was on the plane of shadows, where everything is in shades of grey so all coins look alike) into their portable hole and getting out of there. They're all excited about how they're going to spend over a million gold (I was very careful not to ever say gold, just coins), only to find that they actually had about 10,000 gold worth of copper, and a couple +1 weapons, to divide between a 7 man level 15-16 party, and not even some dragon hide either.

So yea, I've had players put me in a position where they forced me to either scrap the campaign or give them a get-out-of-stupid free card. I don't think I've ever been as infuriated by a pair of individuals within a game before or since. Some of their stupidity wouldn't have rankled QUITE so much if they hadn't persistently mocked the druid who was actually smart enough to give them clear intelligence and one last opportunity to get the proper protective preparations in place.

[Kelavam]

I guess what bothers me most is the lack of initiative. No one asked any questions - 3-4 minutes of saying "we are looking the room over thouroughly" would have brought about a ton of information. I would have volunteered more info had they said they were looking for clues.

But they sat there, waiting for me to hand feed them, and that was when I started getting irritated. Some of them have played with me for years, and should have known by now when it comes to puzzles, I only give them what they ask or what is obvious. I gave them a nice, detailed description to start off with, but left some need for questions.

I have given parties small "get out of stupidity" free cards over the years, small things that did not affect game balance or affect anything in a major way. Things I felt made the story a little better as opposed to feeling like I was actually giving them something but a good time.

The last couple of weeks has left me wanting a new group.

Next week's session begins with a talk to my party. I am not going to sit here and hand feed them anymore; I had this talk years ago and it looks like it might be time to have it again.

[MadDruid]

As someone whos run Dnd + storyteller games since 1989 and Run larp adventures for best part of 15 years I can say the time it takes the party to solve a riddle is approximately decided by this formula

(Time you think it will take in minutes * (no of players * number of beersdrunk)) * an inverse number based on how difficult you think the riddle is (1 for the hardest, 10 for the easiest...the easy ones always take far longer to solve)


This often leads to whole evenings of random words being ranted at you before you eventually break down and give them blatent clues which often will be ignored.

[Cam_Neely]

I had a party wipe, I should have kept it, but I did not feel like dealing with the party wipe and starting over the following week from scratch. As frustrated as they were with the puzzle, the death on top of that was not going over well.

Any other DM ever do that, to save thier campaign?

Yes, but never let your party know. Ive done this, and played it off as them being captured, or something else that can fit into the story line. Make it hurt. Take away gold, valuable weapons, perm stat dmg (torture can leave lasting effects on the mind as well as the body). But never let them know your going easy on them.

[Kelavam]

Yes, but never let your party know. Ive done this, and played it off as them being captured, or something else that can fit into the story line. Make it hurt. Take away gold, valuable weapons, perm stat dmg (torture can leave lasting effects on the mind as well as the body). But never let them know your going easy on them.

Yeah, this is where I need to learn to keep my cool. I was ticked, basically walked away from the table to cool down.. I was pretty obvious about the saving of the group. That is great advice, and I should have already known better, but sometimes it takes an outsider to help us see perspective.

These are great suggestions, ones I will try to use in the future, but hopefully will not have to.

As someone whos run Dnd + storyteller games since 1989 and Run larp adventures for best part of 15 years I can say the time it takes the party to solve a riddle is approximately decided by this formula

(Time you think it will take in minutes * (no of players * number of beersdrunk)) * an inverse number based on how difficult you think the riddle is (1 for the hardest, 10 for the easiest...the easy ones always take far longer to solve)


This often leads to whole evenings of random words being ranted at you before you eventually break down and give them blatent clues which often will be ignored.

So true. I gave them hints, I tried to use the NPC wizard (high intelligence) to give them hints, and they look at me like I am stupid and continue the debate over the solution.

Thanks for the feedback guys. It's nice to know I am not the only who attempts to salvage my silly little campaign. I work hard on it, I spend a fair amount of time planning, and it sucks to see my hard work go hell in a handbasket. But, if I want them to become smarter players, I suppose punishment for stupid decisions (outside character) might learn them some.

It's like the person who buys healing, mana and raise dead cakes from the ddo store. They never really learn the game when everything is available to them without a lot of thought and planning.

[Missing_Minds]

It's like the person who buys healing, mana and raise dead cakes from the ddo store. They never really learn the game when everything is available to them without a lot of thought and planning.

It only took me 6 months to get it through a few guildies head that failing IS an option, and the rest won't get better unless they learn.

[SetofBs]

It's in the silver chest, right? Which makes the Gold chest false, the silver chest false, and the bronze chest telling the truth. Only one truth.

What am I missing?!

That is what I got as an answer. I don't really see how it could go any other way.

Edit: Thought I was at the end of the thread when the quoted post was made, now I see that many posts were made after this, making my reply kinda silly

[Letrii]

I hate solving puzzles in DnD.

[TheDjinnFor]

Imo: Party wipe, game over, restart new campaign.

They are the players; you are just the facilitator of the game, not the controller of it.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Thanks for the feedback guys. It's nice to know I am not the only who attempts to salvage my silly little campaign. I work hard on it, I spend a fair amount of time planning, and it sucks to see my hard work go hell in a handbasket. But, if I want them to become smarter players, I suppose punishment for stupid decisions (outside character) might learn them some.

I've co-DM'd a few campaigns and written the material for a few more, but I've never quite gotten the hang handling on-the-fly situations- players will always throw you curveballs. I ran a cleric once who crumbled a castle by stoneshaping enough of the foundation rather than fight the horde inside. I found out later that stoneshape isn't supposed to work that way (2nd ed), but our DM thought it was clever enough to let it work in spite of the time he spent preparing the whole scenario.
And he had enough material to get some minor combats set up and fill out the rest of the day.

That's the kind of DMing that just takes a little preparation and a lot of experience.

[Kelavam]

I've co-DM'd a few campaigns and written the material for a few more, but I've never quite gotten the hang handling on-the-fly situations- players will always throw you curveballs. I ran a cleric once who crumbled a castle by stoneshaping enough of the foundation rather than fight the horde inside. I found out later that stoneshape isn't supposed to work that way (2nd ed), but our DM thought it was clever enough to let it work in spite of the time he spent preparing the whole scenario.
And he had enough material to get some minor combats set up and fill out the rest of the day.

That's the kind of DMing that just takes a little preparation and a lot of experience.

That's exactly right. A good DM can handle whatever the players throw at them. I like to think that I am normally fine - I do quite a bit of adjusting midstream in most cases. I handled last night badly. Usually I let them do whatever and adjust myself accordingly; But every GM has a bad night.

[Kelavam]

Imo: Party wipe, game over, restart new campaign.

They are the players; you are just the facilitator of the game, not the controller of it.

And probably should be how I did it. I got ****ed and tried to salvage things. But you are correct..

[Kelavam]

So now I have started working on tests of divine strength for the following weeks.

I could use some suggestions.. I was thinking of a spinning room that required the party to "spin" it to get out of it. Potentially an arm wrestling contest. Maybe even a "tug of war". (Where their would be a room with a rope attached straight across from one wall to the other - pulling one direction would cause X to happen, pulling the other would cause Y to happen.)

But as far as tests of divine strength, I am running a little low. So I would looooove ideas and suggestions or improvements (or fleshing out of) the ideas I presented.

[Missing_Minds]

So now I have started working on tests of divine strength for the following weeks.

I could use some suggestions.. I was thinking of a spinning room that required the party to "spin" it to get out of it. Potentially an arm wrestling contest. Maybe even a "tug of war". (Where their would be a room with a rope attached straight across from one wall to the other - pulling one direction would cause X to happen, pulling the other would cause Y to happen.)

But as far as tests of divine strength, I am running a little low. So I would looooove ideas and suggestions or improvements (or fleshing out of) the ideas I presented.

I noticed in the last puzzle you also used that term of "divine". Why? Are you having it in a deity related room so it is a deity related puzzle? Just a "player" hangup on semantics, aka a "me" issue.

Does it have to be the str stat? A person can be "strong" in many aspects, muscle only being one of them.

You could always make it be a "lift this 5 ton block" have the block be on a singular pully with a "divinely tied knot" so it won't slip. At the back end of the room you can have a very securely put O ring. Make the rope be of infinite divine length. (yeah, a magic rope that will shrink or grow longer to fit the party's need)

With this setup, I could lift the 5 tons in real life and I can't even bench my own body weight.

While using muscle, it takes smarts of how to make a pully/block and tackle system.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/tra...ent/pulley.htm

So rope trick and intelligence rolls would be apt. You can, and I have, made a pully system out of the same rope in real life. (boy scout jambo contest. Contest was using knots and lashings, so my troop made a drawbridge, and we rigged it so that any single one of us could lift and lower the bridge with ease. We could only use wood for the project and rope, nothing else.)



In relation to spinning.... What if you had a 'clock'. but to fake "gears" you had people spinning at the right speed? They had to pick up the right "cog" look and spin in the correct region? If they chose the wrong region, I could see them getting "kicked" out of their circle region, maybe super spun and getting "sick" requiring balance checks unless they cleaned their area. Sort of a "fit the hole with the correct piece" game. The "cog" pieces could be hats of different sizes, or beanies with different sized/shaped gears on top instead of a propeller.

[Kelavam]

I noticed in the last puzzle you also used that term of "divine". Why? Are you having it in a deity related room so it is a deity related puzzle? Just a "player" hangup on semantics, aka a "me" issue.

Does it have to be the str stat? A person can be "strong" in many aspects, muscle only being one of them.

You could always make it be a "lift this 5 ton block" have the block be on a singular pully with a "divinely tied knot" so it won't slip. At the back end of the room you can have a very securely put O ring. Make the rope be of infinite divine length. (yeah, a magic rope that will shrink or grow longer to fit the party's need)

With this setup, I could lift the 5 tons in real life and I can't even bench my own body weight.

While using muscle, it takes smarts of how to make a pully/block and tackle system.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/tra...ent/pulley.htm

So rope trick and intelligence rolls would be apt. You can, and I have, made a pully system out of the same rope in real life. (boy scout jambo contest. Contest was using knots and lashings, so my troop made a drawbridge, and we rigged it so that any single one of us could lift and lower the bridge with ease. We could only use wood for the project and rope, nothing else.)



In relation to spinning.... What if you had a 'clock'. but to fake "gears" you had people spinning at the right speed? They had to pick up the right "cog" look and spin in the correct region? If they chose the wrong region, I could see them getting "kicked" out of their circle region, maybe super spun and getting "sick" requiring balance checks unless they cleaned their area. Sort of a "fit the hole with the correct piece" game. The "cog" pieces could be hats of different sizes, or beanies with different sized/shaped gears on top instead of a propeller.

Not a bad idea! I like it. And I used the word "divine strength" on the door label, so that is a deciding factor as to what puzzles I put in. The quest is designated in a temple to the god of good, converted to a storage of holy items when things started going bad in the world, and many good items were being destroyed, Thankfully, not many of them have a clue how I defined "devine strength" so it leaves me almost wide open. So I use that term in quotes...

You have a couple of great suggestions, I might have to implement some of them.. Thank you!

[Missing_Minds]

You have a couple of great suggestions, I might have to implement some of them.. Thank you!

Welcome and feel free to. Oh, if the players want to get a circumstantial bonus (and this isn't being held in your house) let them act out the parts of spinning for your amusement.

[Gandalfs_Ghost]

re: Sigava's Shadow Dragon post

As an ex-DM Ive had to deal with the intensity of the density of actual living, breathing, "how do you get out of your house every day and not be on a leash" yet ostensibly intelligent players.
Sometime you just have to let a party die. If they are failing so miserably and doing one thing after another that to you is a trainwreck unfolding in slow motion that cannto be attibuted to "luck of the dice" its perfectly within reason to let them suffer the rewards of their own poor play. It is not your job to reward gameplay like that.
Having said that, you do not have to start a new campaign over it. There is a variety of ways to bring a party back even though they are all dead dead dead.
Anything from having them each have a face to face with their individual highly disappointed deities wherein their return to life also requires them to suffer some kind of setback or complete some form of quest (but this method requires extra work on your part and is a bit of a deus ex machina, but hey its your camfrikkinpaign, you can do what you want).
One of my favorites (only used once) was to have the party raised by.... another party. The successful party. A party mind you of significantly more power than the original who if the real party tried to mess with would quickly plant them all back in their graves. As to why this party would raise them, so many possibilities. Maybe the cleric decided to raise the beautiful caster trixie whos job it would then be to convince the cleric to not maker her his (or one of the other members) personal lackey/servant/slave (interpret this how you will) but also convince him to raise the rest of the idiots. Maybe he raises them for fun, to see if he could, because as a loyal and dutiful follower of his own deity/beliefs he felt compelled to raise a party who tried to face such a terrible threat even though the went into the encounter without a single brain between them... :P
Maybe they are an evil party and raise them to sell them as slaves. Worht more money alive than dead etc.
You could even have had years pass before this happens, keep piling on the pain to make the party understand what a nice, kind compassionate yet TOTALLY EVIL dm you can be. Yeah, and make them thank you to. And dont forget to take away some of their toys if you want, looted by others, etc. And again, make sure they smile and say "yes please may I have another" as you give them back that which they so deservedly threw away, though perhaps not quite intact and as unblemished as when they lost it.
Then get mean.
And if one of the players gives you **** dont raise him, reincarnate him. Partys can always use a good watchdog.
Sigh, messing with players... I miss that stuff sometimes...