Patch being railroaded

[Mister_Peace]

Eladrin, Genasi, MadFloyd, other members of the design team:

I don't get it. You guys are supposedly all about "encouraging good gameplay," but using bound items as ingredients only discourages passing loot.

MadFloyd's "Whoops, that was accidental" is a whole order of magnitude worse than Genasi's "I thought Pale Master was fine." It's fine if you guys don't play the game, and you don't even need to know the difference between awesome and crappy loot design, as long as you listen to your playtesters who DO. Waiting to fix something until it hits live servers sends bad messages about your team's process.

[Burem]

The crafting system has been flawed from conception.

In DDO most "enchantments" on items have very little value in and of themselves. The standard PCRPG loot model is based around chasing a higher number. Your character gets stronger by replacing +10 strength gloves with +20 strength gloves. While items are likely to have more than just one statistic on them they also generally scale in a linear fashion.

In DDO, however, the power limitation is generally equipment slots. A fresh off the boat character is likely to have the best version of a lot of bonuses by the time they are capped. The vast majority of loot chasing in DDO is about combined effects. +6 strength on gloves mean roughly nothing, as +6 stat items grow on trees. +6 dex boots, say, are also worth very little. +6 Strength and +6 Dex on the same item, though, would be of a much higher value.

The other limitation is of course, level. +6 strength +5 spot is not worth anything at all, but +6 strength on its own is of some value, though not a high one.

In some rare instances, more-so in later years, effects have been added that have value simply by only existing on a small handful of rare items, which is good. These effects should not be added to crafting as it stands.

Because crafting is limited to two effects on an item any effect put on that item is, with the above rare effect exceptions, never going to be worth all that much to a capped character. The current implementation of crafting has viability in certain situations, though. It allows newer high level players to create gear for themselves and allows any high level player to more easily acquire "clean" items for their other characters or TRs. This is a perfectly fine niche for the crafting system to fill but, without serious changes to the implementation, attempts to broaden the system's application will only destroy the part of it that works.

Making the items you create with crafting extremely difficult to create goes precisely counter to the current function of the system entire. The changes to crafting, and even the cost of some things with the pre-changed implementation, seem as if they are made by someone who doesn't understand the most basic concepts of gear valuation in the very game they're working on.

Further issues are immediately apparent to anyone who pays any attention, issues that should have been dealt with before crafting got past concept stages. I've mostly addressed specifically non-weapon items, as weapons are an entirely different kettle of fish. Having weapons and jewelry/clothing/armor valued (since ultimately that's what you're doing by setting a cost to create said items) in the same fashion is the purest folly.

Obviously those changes are going to be rolled back, but "Whoops" and/or "We're sorry" doesn't actually solve the root problem: You can't improve on or extend something you do not understand.

[Ryiah]

Further issues are immediately apparent to anyone who pays any attention, issues that should have been dealt with before crafting got past concept stages.

So apparent and yet so many people who really should know better from past experiences with Turbine are crafting on the live server. I've been collecting mats as I run into them, but I refuse to craft with them until the dust has mostly settled and things are going to remain mostly stable.

[Eladiun]

There is nothing in this patch important enough for you to ruin the games community and comradery over. This change to raid loot will do a great deal of damage to the game.

[Cashiry]

I'm still a litte confused as to how this version made it to Lamania...

What did all those Mounrlands testers say to this?

[ImFour20]

you do realize that crafting is in beta right?

[stainer]

you do realize that crafting is in beta right?

A beta program that just started to include parts of the game that aren't in beta.

[Darkrok]

There is nothing in this patch important enough for you to ruin the games community and comradery over. This change to raid loot will do a great deal of damage to the game.

This is exactly how I feel. My vip sub runs out in September and it won't be renewed until raid loot, rare loot, and tomes are no longer a part of crafting. It has nothing to do with crafting. I don't care if I have to personally grind every greensteel item I get because LDS cost 4.2 million plat each on the AH. I don't care if I can never make a crafted item again. I DO care that you're going to destroy the community to fix a beta crafting system.

I'm sitting on $125 that was going to go toward renewing my VIP for a full year rather than going 3 months at a time. It's not going to Turbine now. And honestly, even if you reverted the changes you'd never see a full year sub out of me now...you're too likely to flush the game down the toilet because you're convinced it's the right answer. Disappointed doesn't begin to describe the feeling I have right now.

Heck of a birthday present for me there Turbine.

[Darkrok]

you do realize that crafting is in beta right?

As Stainer said, they're making sweeping changes that have disastrous effects to the raids and loot structure outside crafting. While there are a few people upset that it will be nearly impossible to level crafting, let alone make any top-tier items, that's not where the vast majority of anger is centered. It's what this does to the community aspect of DDO that's got everyone so upset.

[Ironforge_Clan]

you do realize that crafting is in beta right?

Beta or not the idea of using raid loot to craft non-epic lesser items is such a bad idea that I am totally at a loss as to who would think that it was a good idea and why. It just goes to show that whomever is making decisions truly doesn't have a clue about the game. It also proves that if this went to Mournlands for testing then those players also have no clue or no voice.

[Mister_Peace]

So ...

The train has been stopped. The patch will not ship in its current state.
...
Mournlands did not have an opportunity to see or comment on these changes.
...many thanks to all players who offered their well-thought out and constructive feedback on this issue and tried the changes on Lamannia.

A patch is going live tomorrow that includes changes to crafting.
...
We're looking forward to a continued dialog with our players about crafting, and encourage you to check out the changes in the patch and share your feedback.

I wasn't expecting feedback today (i.e. before you saw the changes with your own eyes). That said, I'm already {receiving and digesting feedback}
Understood. Thanks.

Why is this important patch bypassing both Mournlands and Lamannia?

[PurdueDave]

Why is this important patch bypassing both Mournlands and Lamannia?

That is a really awesome question. What am I missing?

[Auran82]

I never understood the implementation for crafting they decided on, they have a perfectly good system in LOTRO (and to be honest, this kind of system is the most common and successful type of system in MMOs) but they went with something entirely different, with chances to fail, etc.

I understand that change can be good, but not necessarily change for the sake of change. Now they are in a situation where they want to restrict the number of highly sought after enchantments being made (gtr banes, holy burst etc) but the simple fact is, you need to make a heap of these (as well as normal banes) just to level! These recipies should have been the reason you levelled your crafting, not the means in which you do it.

As a base, you should get access to 'levelling recipies' (lesser skill/stat bonuses, lesser spell boosts and clickies etc) higher level stuff should be drops from quests (not just raids) and be able to be sold, hell the really nice stuff could be single/limited use or have timers. Make everything unbound or bind on equip, create an economy for those who want to focus on it, let those who don't want to craft be able to sell recipies and ingredients to those who do. Make the levelling process take time, but not be so insanely exponential. Want to sell stuff in the store? Give crafting a chance to crit (like in LOTRO) with boosters available in the store and in treasure.

The crafting system as it is seems really confused in what they were wanting to achieve, which in a way reminds me of the epic system, rushed implementation with a confused set of future planning.

Marketing guys: Give them something they can do right now!
Devs: What about a crafting system?
Marketing guys: How long will that take?
Devs: A good year or so for a proper implementation
Marketing guys: What can you do in 2 months?

I mean, I have no idea how long it took to implement the current system, but it certainly feels like it was released *way* too early. Maybe they were hoping to have druids ready by PAX and when that was held back they felt they needed to get *something* big to show.

[scottmike0]

I never understood the implementation for crafting they decided on, they have a perfectly good system in LOTRO (and to be honest, this kind of system is the most common and successful type of system in MMOs) but they went with something entirely different, with chances to fail, etc.

I understand that change can be good, but not necessarily change for the sake of change. Now they are in a situation where they want to restrict the number of highly sought after enchantments being made (gtr banes, holy burst etc) but the simple fact is, you need to make a heap of these (as well as normal banes) just to level! These recipies should have been the reason you levelled your crafting, not the means in which you do it.

As a base, you should get access to 'levelling recipies' (lesser skill/stat bonuses, lesser spell boosts and clickies etc) higher level stuff should be drops from quests (not just raids) and be able to be sold, hell the really nice stuff could be single/limited use or have timers. Make everything unbound or bind on equip, create an economy for those who want to focus on it, let those who don't want to craft be able to sell recipies and ingredients to those who do. Make the levelling process take time, but not be so insanely exponential. Want to sell stuff in the store? Give crafting a chance to crit (like in LOTRO) with boosters available in the store and in treasure.

The crafting system as it is seems really confused in what they were wanting to achieve, which in a way reminds me of the epic system, rushed implementation with a confused set of future planning.

Marketing guys: Give them something they can do right now!
Devs: What about a crafting system?
Marketing guys: How long will that take?
Devs: A good year or so for a proper implementation
Marketing guys: What can you do in 2 months?

I mean, I have no idea how long it took to implement the current system, but it certainly feels like it was released *way* too early. Maybe they were hoping to have druids ready by PAX and when that was held back they felt they needed to get *something* big to show.

blah blah blah why cant we all say to remove house k crafting system jeeze it has been more terror than when green steel items came in!!!! Get on with it please

[Erekose]

Enjoyment of the game has become an obsession with two distinct options.

Grind for really good loot, and
Grind for Xp by TR'ing to make a really good character.

These aspects of the game are important however, only mask the glaring deficiency that this game has lost its appeal as a game where you can have fun questing.

More needs to be done to develop interesting and challenging quest design that is published on a frequent basis.

[Buggss]

blah blah blah why cant we all say to remove house k crafting system jeeze it has been more terror than when green steel items came in!!!! Get on with it please

OI!!

Hands of my avatar!

Any idea how long it took to pick a daft enough looking avatar that noone else would ever use?

Go find another daft one!

[insaneuou]

derailed i would say!

[Seikojin]

So ...

Why is this important patch bypassing both Mournlands and Lamannia?

The patch made it to Lammania. Patches do not fit in line with mournlands until the patch build gets rolled into the mainline build, regressed by internal QA, and then updated to Mournlands.

Patches and quickfixes are not in line with the normal timeline and development cycle. So that is why things can go from internal to live without much 'customer facing test time'.

Just basic software development. The changes are important enough to roll out (decreasing crafting timers, pulling ingredients from bags, etc), plus they rolled out a balancer to the speedy crafters out there. Unfortunately it is a big hit to most crafters, and they are going to work on it.

Best course of action, grind craft levels, and dont make anything that requires super rare loot. It will eventually get changed. Give constructive ideas that meet their criteria.

[scottmike0]

OI!!

Hands of my avatar!

Any idea how long it took to pick a daft enough looking avatar that noone else would ever use?

Go find another daft one!

NU uh i think you copied me i picked the avatar for the very same reason

[Missing_Minds]

I'm still a litte confused as to how this version made it to Lamania...

What did all those Mounrlands testers say to this?

Per what the devs stated, it never made it to Mournlands.