Holy Burst = Silver Flame Pots. Discuss

[Delt]

The only bad thing (as has been mentioned I'm sure) about the SF Pots is the BtC aspect. The reality is Turbine wants to sell packs...so that recipes will include ingrediants from p2p packs isn't surprising (raid loot & store content is a stupid idea though).

Unfortunately, the crafting system has been poorly implimented from the start. There is zero opportunity here, so far, to brand your creations (ie: Signature/Engraving ala LotRO) or effect to final outcome in comparison to other crafters (ie: Star Wars). Modification in looks, if it comes, will likely be delivered through the DDO Store. So crafting is pretty flat, of little draw to most players and will generally appeal to hardcore players that want their perfect twink/trash weapon.

Given that Turbine has at least _some_ experience in crafting and what makes it enjoyable (LotRO), I can only assume the problem with DDO crafting is that it is being approached primarily with the mind set of "how can we make money on this thing"...which is a pretty **** poor way to go about development.

[Jandric]

The problem with the Silver Flame Pots isn't with the Silver Flame favor. That's inconvenient, and annoying, and probably a bad idea, but not necessarily a bad design choice.

The problem with the Silver Flame pots is that you now require for crafting an item which is Bound to Character. All of crafting is, so far, designed so that any one of your toons (it doesn't matter which!) can be your singular crafter. Now, suddenly, your crafter must possess certain qualities: Having 400 Silver Flame favor. This is bad.

This is part (but only part) of the reason that requiring raid loot is a terrible design choice: It is BTC, so that character needs to be able to land the chaosblade so he can make the BTA vampirism shard.

-Kernal

The binding aspect is something that I didn't consider. MadFloyd has since stated that BTC items will not be required. So that means that they're either going to change favor rewards to BTA (somewhat unlikely), or that this will be drpped altogether.

[Vengenance]

I don't have SF favor and don't have a problem with this. To make a very good shard should take some work. Everyone on the server shouldn't be able to easily make these items, only the crafters who grind the hardest. If everyone had +5 Holyburst Silver Khopeshes of GEOB the game would be to easy and it would marginalize all other end game gear. Top gear should require a significant cost and to be able to craft the top gear should also require a significant investment.

I agree with not using raid loot, but silver flame pots are easy to obtain if you want to grind out the favor.

[pHo3nix]

I agree it's not good, but at least silver flame favor requires no luck: you got the packs, you run the quests, you got the potions.

The really bad thing is requiring raid loot and tomes for crafting: you can run adq 100 times and don't get a chaosblade, cause you can't even count on others putting things up for roll..

Without considering that all these changes to crafting will only hurt people who are not yet at the maximum lvl, cause those that are already able to craft are probably crafting dozens of shards now, before their cost become ridicolous.

[TheDearLeader]

Adding this for those involved in this thread.

Now he says "Bound Named Items" won't be involved - Silver Flame Pots are BtC, and Named... but I somehow still think despite falling under his guidelines of what will *not* be included, they will sadly be included.

But either way, let the conversation progress that other shards recipes will probably be much less punitive than we saw.

And for the last time - this is about the Holy Burst shard. It's not that I don't care about GLOB, or Vampirism, etc... but I'd like to start a thread on them when we're a little more sure *what* we'll be seeing as part of their recipes.

Commentary to those who have said "If you have the packs", or "Turbine's out to make money" .. again, just how much money should a person spend to either A. Buy all the packs, or B. Buy all the packs they don't already own... just to craft a Single Shard?

By necessitating that all packs be bought, Holy Burst has essentially become a "Pay2Win" shard.

Everyone,

The train has been stopped. The patch will not ship in its current state.

I will update (probably via a separate thread) when I have more news, but I can say this:

We will NOT require raid loot as ingredients.

We will NOT require bound named items as ingredients.

Many ingredients, and the *amount* of some of these ingredients were out of line.

These changed recipes should have been reviewed by various designers, but weren't (a hole in our process that we have identified and corrected to avoid for the future).

Mournlands did not have an opportunity to see or comment on these changes.

Again, I'll post more info when I have it.

Our sincere apologies for causing panic, and many thanks to all players who offered their well-thought out and constructive feedback on this issue and tried the changes on Lamannia.

"MudFloyd"

[Chai]

I dont mind the sf pots as crafting ingred. Its not like every recipe requires one. Dont have sf favor? dont make that shard. I am not in favor of raid loot being used if thats going to be in the equation in any shape. But the sf pots, meh whatever. Grinding out sf favor on one alt isnt a huge deal.

What about shroud ingredients. Its my opinion that the cannith stuff was a suitable alternative, but not if we have to grind the exact same quest that has been the centerpiece of crafting in this game for a long time now. The price on that ingredient will skyrocket on the AH if it becomes a useful item. I liked the idea of rare items like mystical plant for example dropping from quest chains and flagging quests. These are completely separate and still require at least some effort to obtain. They would also make sure theres some level of a bottleneck in place to everyone doesnt have "perfect weapons" for every single situation tomorrow.

[Postumus]

That's also excluding Demon's Den.

399 is Catacombs, Necro 1-3, the four Orchard quests, and the low level F2P Silver Flame quests all on elite.

You can still get your Silver Flame favour by doing Demon's Den casual after that; if you have no desire to flag for and do Litany and Abbot.

That still doesn't change the fact that Silver Flame favour is an enormous and frustrating grind, and it also doesn't change the fact that requiring BTC items for a BTA based crafting system is a poor design.

I'm not seeing this as a 'enormous frustrating grind.' Maybe if you decided to just knock out all 400 favor at one go it's a grind, but the quests are leveled well enough that you do one chain, go do something else for a week or two, then come back and do another chain.

I admit when I first ran some quests like Tomb of Torment it took 90+ mins and I swore I'd never do it again. Then I learned a few things, and by the third time I ran it, over level on elite, it took maybe 20-22 mins. Not bad for the 18k+ or so xps it was worth.

Catacombs is easy. All the SF harbor quests are easy. Church & the Cult is easy enough with a rogue. Necro 1 is easy. Necro 2 has two PITA quests. Necro 3 is average difficulty. And while a couple of the orchards quests can be tough on elite, they are aren't over the top challenging.

[Postumus]

By necessitating that all packs be bought, Holy Burst has essentially become a "Pay2Win" shard.

Well since you can grind favor FOR FREE to buy the packs, it's hardly pay to win.

But I agree that it is a better for the players to leave ingredients UNBOUND so people can obtain them by trading for them in game.

[Quikster]

Adding this for those involved in this thread.

Now he says "Bound Named Items" won't be involved - Silver Flame Pots are BtC, and Named... but I somehow still think despite falling under his guidelines of what will *not* be included, they will sadly be included.

But either way, let the conversation progress that other shards recipes will probably be much less punitive than we saw.

And for the last time - this is about the Holy Burst shard. It's not that I don't care about GLOB, or Vampirism, etc... but I'd like to start a thread on them when we're a little more sure *what* we'll be seeing as part of their recipes.

Commentary to those who have said "If you have the packs", or "Turbine's out to make money" .. again, just how much money should a person spend to either A. Buy all the packs, or B. Buy all the packs they don't already own... just to craft a Single Shard?

By necessitating that all packs be bought, Holy Burst has essentially become a "Pay2Win" shard.

Once again, that shard is not a must have to win. I dont care if turbine makes you buy the packs with sf favor in them to craft this item.

What about shroud ingredients. Its my opinion that the cannith stuff was a suitable alternative, but not if we have to grind the exact same quest that has been the centerpiece of crafting in this game for a long time now. The price on that ingredient will skyrocket on the AH if it becomes a useful item. I liked the idea of rare items like mystical plant for example dropping from quest chains and flagging quests. These are completely separate and still require at least some effort to obtain. They would also make sure theres some level of a bottleneck in place to everyone doesnt have "perfect weapons" for every single situation tomorrow.

Not a fan of shroud ingred either.

I'm not seeing this as a 'enormous frustrating grind.' Maybe if you decided to just knock out all 400 favor at one go it's a grind, but the quests are leveled well enough that you do one chain, go do something else for a week or two, then come back and do another chain.

I admit when I first ran some quests like Tomb of Torment it took 90+ mins and I swore I'd never do it again. Then I learned a few things, and by the third time I ran it, over level on elite, it took maybe 20-22 mins. Not bad for the 18k+ or so xps it was worth.

Catacombs is easy. All the SF harbor quests are easy. Church & the Cult is easy enough with a rogue. Necro 1 is easy. Necro 2 has two PITA quests. Necro 3 is average difficulty. And while a couple of the orchards quests can be tough on elite, they are aren't over the top challenging.

agreed.

[Postumus]

What about shroud ingredients. Its my opinion that the cannith stuff was a suitable alternative, but not if we have to grind the exact same quest that has been the centerpiece of crafting in this game for a long time now. The price on that ingredient will skyrocket on the AH if it becomes a useful item.

Great point. Shroud items is a bad idea. It limits crafting rather than expanding it.

[Quikster]

Well since you can grind favor FOR FREE to buy the packs, it's hardly pay to win.

But I agree that it is a better for the players to leave ingredients UNBOUND so people can obtain them by trading for them in game.

Then its still pay to win, only im paying out of my 20 mil plat as opposed to buying turbine packs. IMO this is worse as it favors people that have been playing longer (not that all vets have tons of plat, but newbies that play by the rules certainly dont)

[Gremmlynn]

This shard, among others, really takes crafting in a direction i don't like. When first introduced, I thought it a great addition to the game as it allowed me to play the content I wanted to and, with very little effort, get the gear I wanted for my character.

Now it seems Turbine is taking crafting in the direction the game was when it was introduced by tying the gear to specific content. Sorry, but regardless of the xp or pixels offered, content I don't find interesting is a waste of my time and tying crafting to that content makes it also a waste of my time.

Now if they were to offer those special ingredients in the DDO store I would find this much more palatable. Not that I would necessarily buy them, but I would like the option to spend money on what I want over having to spend it on something I don't want in order to waste time doing something I would rather not simply to get what I do want.

[Postumus]

Then its still pay to win, only im paying out of my 20 mil plat as opposed to buying turbine packs. IMO this is worse as it favors people that have been playing longer (not that all vets have tons of plat, but newbies that play by the rules certainly dont)

Gotcha. I can see that.

[Cyr]

Silver Flame pots are Bound Named Items.

These would be covered under the No bound named items that Madfloyd stated.

We will see if even that not even close to far enough statment is carried through with though.

[NaturalHazard]

I think you overestimate how many premium player that buy all 4 Necro packs.

I agree with the OP the reqs for this shard are sort of insane.

It kinda sucks for me, i got necro 2 and 4 bought them last year, I havent reached 72 yet long way off only in the early 50s and late 40's. Im glad that I didnt break the bank to level up as fast as possible i prob would get to 50 something just as the update goes live then haha cant craft what I want, and be totally broke.



maybe they could give us something to do with those stacks and stacks of chains/bones and horns?

[Quikster]

This shard, among others, really takes crafting in a direction i don't like. When first introduced, I thought it a great addition to the game as it allowed me to play the content I wanted to and, with very little effort, get the gear I wanted for my character.

Now it seems Turbine is taking crafting in the direction the game was when it was introduced by tying the gear to specific content. Sorry, but regardless of the xp or pixels offered, content I don't find interesting is a waste of my time and tying crafting to that content makes it also a waste of my time.

Now if they were to offer those special ingredients in the DDO store I would find this much more palatable. Not that I would necessarily buy them, but I would like the option to spend money on what I want over having to spend it on something I don't want in order to waste time doing something I would rather not simply to get what I do want.

I understand where youre coming from, but i see no problem with having to run content you dont like to get a powerful item. Nobody is making you run it. Craft your holy shard instead and call it good.

[Quikster]

Silver Flame pots are Bound Named Items.

These would be covered under the No bound named items that Madfloyd stated.

We will see if even that not even close to far enough statment is carried through with though.

Meh I guess. I see it a little different as once you unlock it you can buy as many as you want. Now if I unlocked reaver and could purchase as many madstone boots as I wanted, I would have no problem including madstone boots in recipes.

[Emili]

...

If everyone had +5 Holyburst Silver Khopeshes of GEOB the game would be to easy and it would marginalize all other end game gear.

...

This game already is so easy does not matter with or without. If you wish to stiffle a +5 Holyburst Silver Khopeshes of GEOB make the next few raid bosses golems or divas...

[Gremmlynn]

I understand where youre coming from, but i see no problem with having to run content you dont like to get a powerful item. Nobody is making you run it. Craft your holy shard instead and call it good.

I see no reason to run content I don't like for anything. I'm more than willing to pass on loot or xp from those quests, but this is silly.

Saying craft a holy shard instead is simply a short sighted statement. It's more a matter of crafting being that much less enjoyable for me regardless of whether I choose to stomach the distasteful content or forgo it and just get less out of the system.

I'm sorry, but the thing I find best about crafting is that it allows me to not have to run content I don't particularly like while keeping up in an overly gear orientated game. Take that away and it leaves little reason to play at all.

[Gremmlynn]

This game already is so easy does not matter with or without. If you wish to stiffle a +5 Holyburst Silver Khopeshes of GEOB make the next few raid bosses golems or divas...

Or anything with randomly changing abilities and weaknesses.