Death to New/Casual Players

[Gremmlynn]

if you're just a casual player soloing stuff. then there is nothing wrong with regular banes. if you want end game loot(crafted or non) prepare to grind for it

LOL.

Gotta love it when a self professed "hard core" player equates success with nothing more than wasting enough time "grinding".

Whatever. I just know, crafting gave me a new outlook on the game and a reason to keep playing the same old, never changing, content, but in whatever order I find interesting. Now it's changing to dictate what content i need to play to achieve whatever my personal goal may be. I don't see the point unless it's to cull out those players with the absurd notion that they can decide for themselves what is or isn't fun about the game.

[blkcat1028]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...64#post3910664

In case you haven't seen it yet.

[shores11]

I think crafting deserves to be here. It was in PnP 3.5 and so I think it should be here as well...

Crafting or the idea of it was in 2.0 as well.

[Therigar]

With the new requirements for crafting, not only will you have to buy the adventure packs from where the named loot comes from but ALSO you need to grind out and PULL the named item.

Why?

An answer you may not want to hear....

Turbine does not cater to the casual gamer. Their primary target, in spite of the free-to-play model and casual appearance, is the hard-core gamer.

That hard-core gamer will already have at least one capped crafting character and will already have crafted the great loot that everyone else has been talking about. As an example, check out those posting about their +4 holy burst silver weapon of greater lawful/evil outsider bane.

Turbine has given the hard-core gamer enough time to level and craft the top end loot and no longer has any need to pretend to care about the casual gamer. They are in business to make money.

And making money means keeping a gap between hard-core gamers and casual gamers. This drives a market based on greed. I want what he has. So I buy the packs and spend the dollars or euros to make that happen.

Turbine could care less about you or me. What they care about is our wallet and how much money is in it (or how deeply we're willing to go into debt).

This change is designed to do one thing -- generate sales. And, this cannot really be blamed on Turbine as an evil or bad thing. It is, after all else is said and done, just a business and just a business decision.

Finally, it will have no impact on the new/casual player numbers. Who those specific players are may change as some who are playing now will quit because of the appearance of injustice. But, new/casual players quit all the time and there are always other new/casual players to take their place.

Ultimately, after the rage quits and the disgusted quits the remaining players will either simply accept the changes or they will be unaware that things were ever different. It is a no lose situation for Turbine.

That makes it easy to a) not listen to players and b) not care.

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

Crafting or the idea of it was in 2.0 as well.

I say 3.5 cause this game was adapted from 3.5 (right?)

Therigar, while I understand your frustration since I have the same sentiments about the changes, I don't think Turbine isn't making changes for newer/more casual players. I think the point of this was to encourage the nonpower-gamers to buy packs and what not.

They just need a better system :P

[blkcat1028]

Turbine really tries to cater to both. Thus why the earlier content packs have had epic versions. In some cases the epics are fairly easy. But look at this thread's idea of casual. It considers raiding to 20 completions, even the Gianthold Reaver raid, to be something for hard-core players. Yet Reaver is clearly easier than running the House D and House P epics.

This definition is very narrow-minded and illogical as it considers "casual" players those who don't raid enough to even get 20 completions after two years. If we consider those people to be "casual", then it really just covers those who are lower level and/or don't own much of the content. Far less than the 90 to 95 percent of the community your post is indicating is casual.

If the players under this definition don't have much of the content, then clearly they aren't the ones funding this game. Thus Turbine catering to them would be counter-intuitive.

I agree that the uber-casual players, like those you mention, do not fund the game. Any population, like our gaming community, can be visualized as a bell curve. On one end you have the 5-10% hard core players. On the other end we have your definition of casual (probably a higher % than the hc crowd) In the middle we have the bulk of the community. These not-so-casual players are the one who fund the game. This is the group that has some VIPs that only play a few hours a week (they are out there) and the premium players that buy adventure packs and such. They constitute the majority of the community and therefore they have to be the target of turbines efforts.

I also agree that Turbine does a fairly good job catering to the majority of players. Don't get me wrong, I'd love more high level and epic content, but I really enjoy the leveling aspect of the game. I consider myself a hard-core gamer simply because of the amount of time I spend playing. I have two re-capped TRs, another capped toon and 9 alts

The true power gamers are the F2P folks that grind out tp and play all the content for free. That requires way more patience then I will ever have. That's why I'm VIP

Cheers

[fyrst.grok]

I don´t see a problem....... except for the fact crafting doesn´t belong in the game....period.

Whats next - Rename the game to:

"DDO Eberron Unlimited Arts & Crafts"


I cannot stress this enough:

We are here to be heroes people... heroes have geeks designing better Armor / Sewing better clothes and craftsmen / Smithys sweating day & night so WE can swing the ultimate <insert uber item here>.


If Crafting is to stay... at least it should toss in some Guild Reknown because to make things worse.... crafting makes for the OCDDO´rs to aim for that Level 100 Crafting Skills (X3) and Guild Decay is causing Interesting achievements & Benefits for all look kindof out of reach.


.

McGyver will be very sad to hear this..

[gloopygloop]

Well your intiial thought was blantantly wrong.

It is an INSANEly more difficult, longer and harder grind to get crafting levels up to level of creating near-GS equivalent stuff. (EG: Holy burst, Greater banes)

Talking in the hundreds of hours, and/or tends of millions of platinums to reach those levels.

So no, crafting things on the level of T3 GS was never within the reach of casual players anyways. T3 Shroud gear was and is far easier to get for casual players.

Now some more basic stuff may be within reach - holy/regular bane sure - but thats no where near GS level.. Thats roughly a ~5-10 hour grind, and 1-2 million platinum. The higher stuff is exponentiially far more difficult.

If it took you hundreds of hours and/or tens of millions of plat to get Holy Burst and some of the Greater Banes, then you were doing it wrong.

[Therigar]

Turbine really tries to cater to both. Thus why the earlier content packs have had epic versions. In some cases the epics are fairly easy. But look at this thread's idea of casual. It considers raiding to 20 completions, even the Gianthold Reaver raid, to be something for hard-core players. Yet Reaver is clearly easier than running the House D and House P epics.

This definition is very narrow-minded and illogical as it considers "casual" players those who don't raid enough to even get 20 completions after two years. If we consider those people to be "casual", then it really just covers those who are lower level and/or don't own much of the content. Far less than the 90 to 95 percent of the community your post is indicating is casual.

If the players under this definition don't have much of the content, then clearly they aren't the ones funding this game. Thus Turbine catering to them would be counter-intuitive.

This post is wrong.

I have been playing since '06 and have only ever had 1 character run 20 completions of any raid in the game -- and that happened accidentally as it were since I didn't even know it was his 20th completion until reward time came around.

For info you should know that I am a VIP subscription and have always been a subscriber who takes the subscription in yearly increments. I have played on 3 servers -- Ghallanda, Cannith and Orien -- where I have level capped the following:

Therigar, L16 cap -- Ghallanda (since deleted)
Therindal, L16 cap -- Ghallanda (since deleted)
Leyoni, L20 cap -- Cannith (since deleted)
Cratesmasher, L20 cap -- Cannith (since deleted)
Neebelnox, L20 cap -- Cannith (since deleted)
Therigar, L20 cap -- Orien (twice, ready for next TR)
Jiu, L20 cap -- Orien (currently L6 TR)
Doofus, L20 cap -- Orien (currently L5 TR)

That is 9 level cap characters in 5 years -- which is my definition of casual play. In that time I have run every quest currently offered at least once -- although there are some that I don't run now as they have nothing that interest me or, since F2P, are too hard to get groups for while at/near level.

I also have only run 2 epic quests in all that time. I see no point in epics or in epic crafting since I can only use the gear at L20 (for the most part) and the repetition of quests once I hit L20 doesn't hold any appeal for me.

So, I would define myself as casual and take exception to your claim that it is narrow-minded or illogical to consider casual as raiding less than 20 completions.

IMO raiding 20 or more completions is grinding and serves no useful purpose except in those few places where the loot is genuinely worth having. IMO loot is genuinely worth having when it makes gaming at < epic difficulties and < L20 easier and more successful. This explains why I've ended up on >30 Shroud completions this life on Therigar.

But, that itself will change soon as I bring up another character to run Shroud and Therigar will reincarnate.

[Bekki]

I agree but honestly, how casually do you play? even if you only played twice a month (Once every 15 days) you should still have completed at least 20 runs of a raid.

15 days = 1 raid

20 raid completions = 300 days (15*20)

365 days / year.

How about A little understanding please....

Ok, twice a month... I have a few questions.... And a few observations...
How many hours are you counting on being logged on in that day?

I am probably the MOST casual player out there...
And I suffer from severe spouse aggro, and that is putting it mildly
She has positively zero love for the game... But that is a story for another day...

I am lucky if I get on once a week, and avg. 3-4 hours on that particular day... On a good day that is...
(See above statement...)

So I have to be able to...

A. Be able to Log on... ( And yes that can be a challenge...)

B. Get into a raid group... (that is running the raid I need to run)

C. Possibly Raid to the exclusion of all else... To follow your strategy...

See, for me that is not that fun... Don't get me wrong, I love raids... But
Raids take commitment, experience and coordination from the whole party
To be successful... Have you factored failures into your equation there...?

Yes what you propose can be done... assuming you have enough time on the days you get to play...

But you have to understand that there is always that 10% out there Who may have it a tad tougher than most.
In no way do I expect special treatment of any kind...

All I am asking is that you take a moment to understand that some of us may not fall in to the mold of the cookie cutter gamer out there... We may be few and far between but we are out there...

Just my 2cp...

[Crystalizer]

....

Turbine does not cater to the casual gamer. Their primary target, in spite of the free-to-play model and casual appearance, is the hard-core gamer.

...

casual players are the biggest market, money comes from them, hardcore players don't feed turbine, considering the cost their imply about servers availability and content requirements believe me nothing is better than a casual with a VIP account. F2P hardcore players, those who farm TP, are the ones which cost the most, but they populate the game, and this is a huge feedback for turbine since they keep the game alive and healthy.

[Therigar]

casual players are the biggest market, money comes from them, hardcore players don't feed turbine, considering the cost their imply about servers availability and content requirements believe me nothing is better than a casual with a VIP account. F2P hardcore players, those who farm TP, are the ones which cost the most, but they populate the game, and this is a huge feedback for turbine since they keep the game alive and healthy.

Although I don't think you mean to, you are saying what I'm saying. Casual players are where the money is but Turbine doesn't worry about them -- that is, they don't cater to them. What drives word of mouth advertising is the hard-core player who tells his friends and recruits his buddies to play.

Casual players come and go all the time. But hard-core gamers are the heart and soul of the game.

Turbine is more interested in keeping them involved and happy than with keeping the casual gamer happy. If the hard-core gamer leaves he takes the driving force of the game with him. If enough of that occurs then the game becomes a wasteland.

The perfect world for Turbine is when the majority of the casual gamers want to be like the hard-core gamers and spend their money on micro-transactions in the hopes of getting there.

[die]

bottom line .. money money money. that's it put what ever kind of spin you want on it but it comes down too money that's the way of humans well the masses any way

right or wrong i don't care i'm a lifer, as for human nature i have no illusions.

[MrkGrismer]

I agree but honestly, how casually do you play? even if you only played twice a month (Once every 15 days) you should still have completed at least 20 runs of a raid.

15 days = 1 raid

20 raid completions = 300 days (15*20)

365 days / year.

I consider myself a causal player because I play approximately 1-2 hours each day (not every day, but most days). Longer on Fridays and some weekend days.

You can see my join date, which is also my start play date and I have less than 10 raids.

This is because I mostly solo w/hireling. Mostly because I don't want to spend even 5 minutes waiting for a group to form.

Once I have two more characters capped I might raid some more tho.

And yes, I spend far more $ on this game than I really should, and far more than I would if I was a subscriber.

Mostly because I fall for the rez-cake trap.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

People throw around the term "casual" like it has some sort of specific meaning, but nobody ever defines it. I can't be the only one who reads posts from a lot of self-professed "casual" players and thinks that the only definition of casual that they fit into is their own.

Based on what I have read here, I would consider the OP to be casual. However I have seen no evidence that anybody else in this thread is actually a casual player, despite many claims. That is using my own definition of casual, of course.

[Darlor]

And making money means keeping a gap between hard-core gamers and casual gamers

If there was no gap between the hardcore and the casual (which is, more than anything else, a difference in time invested) then that would mean that there is no reward for putting more than a small number of hours into the game per week. Such a situation simply does not make for a good game in this genre - it would mean that it's too easy to progress to the end of your character's path.

I'm sorely tired of seeing people make economic arguments based on the most superficial reasoning. If anything, the gap between casual and hardcore is unusually small in DDO, as a great amount of the appeal is based on the path from level 1-20 (as opposed to many other MMOs in which the main focus of the game is the endgame), a character's build/customization is more important than gear in determining effectiveness, and the gear needed to contribute meaningfully at any stage in the game is generally easy to acquire.

Finally, it's incredibly arrogant to suggest that Turbine simply does not care about its players. In one sense, it is a meaningless statement - a business is an abstract concept incapable of caring, irrespective of how the people working for it feel. In another sense, it's just false - it would be statistically absurd to propose that of all the people working on the game, not a single person cares about whether or not the result of their work is actually enjoyed by people (as long as the money rolls in).

[Hafeal]

I definitely fall into the casual gamer crowd. I have capped characters, raided , and dabbled into crafting ... tried it all as they say.

After nearly 5 years, the game is easier at all levels than it used to be. Yet players, especially newer ones, think they need 'uber' gear to complete many quests in the game - so that is what they want and demand; and now they can even craft it themselves. Turbine has certainly fostered this mentality both in their content offerings and in the DDO Store 'helpful' supplements.

In fact, the game has become so easy to get from 1 to 20, players who spend more than a 'casual' amount of time, even if they are casual to moderate 'play time' players, especially when they first start out and 'love' the game - can cap so quickly they never really 'learn' to play. Tactics? Ha. Better get your static group for that or a good guild.

IMO, one of the biggest culprits DDO has been following, for years, is the Monty Haul syndrome. It sucks life out of the game, without you even realizing it. I think DDO understands this and realizes the syndrome, especially as many vets have left (and continue to leave) the game. I just don't think they know what to do to fix the problem. Players want better and stronger loot - but once you have it, it only make the game easier. And if you make it too rare - then you lose casual players. If you make it too common, it becomes a 'requirement.'

We'll see what is offered up in the next segment of higher level quests (Coming Soon ™) ... but overall, I don't think it matters. The balance between loot, twinking and diffculty has been so skewed, I don't think they can fix it. So, what do you do? You milk the cow, and that is what DDO is doing now.

[Gremmlynn]

I definitely fall into the casual gamer crowd. I have capped characters, raided , and dabbled into crafting ... tried it all as they say.

After nearly 5 years, the game is easier at all levels than it used to be. Yet players, especially newer ones, think they need 'uber' gear to complete many quests in the game - so that is what they want and demand; and now they can even craft it themselves. Turbine has certainly fostered this mentality both in their content offerings and in the DDO Store 'helpful' supplements.

In fact, the game has become so easy to get from 1 to 20, players who spend more than a 'casual' amount of time, even if they are casual to moderate 'play time' players, especially when they first start out and 'love' the game - can cap so quickly they never really 'learn' to play. Tactics? Ha. Better get your static group for that or a good guild.

IMO, one of the biggest culprits DDO has been following, for years, is the Monty Haul syndrome. It sucks life out of the game, without you even realizing it. I think DDO understands this and realizes the syndrome, especially as many vets have left (and continue to leave) the game. I just don't think they know what to do to fix the problem. Players want better and stronger loot - but once you have it, it only make the game easier. And if you make it too rare - then you lose casual players. If you make it too common, it becomes a 'requirement.'

We'll see what is offered up in the next segment of higher level quests (Coming Soon ™) ... but overall, I don't think it matters. The balance between loot, twinking and diffculty has been so skewed, I don't think they can fix it. So, what do you do? You milk the cow, and that is what DDO is doing now.

This is because you think the point of the game is to overcome difficult challenges. It's not, because games like that don't appeal to a broad enough player base to maximize profits. The point is to jump through whatever hoops the devs place in it to make the most powerful character (in the mind of each player) and to get as much powerful "stuff" as possible. The only challenge is how much time (and hopefully money) you put into it. That's what most are willing to spend money on, not something they may or may not be able to achieve depending on their individual abilities. But something that everybody wins at, those with the most ability simply win faster.

[Therigar]

If there was no gap between the hardcore and the casual (which is, more than anything else, a difference in time invested) then that would mean that there is no reward for putting more than a small number of hours into the game per week. Such a situation simply does not make for a good game in this genre - it would mean that it's too easy to progress to the end of your character's path.

I'm sorely tired of seeing people make economic arguments based on the most superficial reasoning. If anything, the gap between casual and hardcore is unusually small in DDO, as a great amount of the appeal is based on the path from level 1-20 (as opposed to many other MMOs in which the main focus of the game is the endgame), a character's build/customization is more important than gear in determining effectiveness, and the gear needed to contribute meaningfully at any stage in the game is generally easy to acquire.

Finally, it's incredibly arrogant to suggest that Turbine simply does not care about its players. In one sense, it is a meaningless statement - a business is an abstract concept incapable of caring, irrespective of how the people working for it feel. In another sense, it's just false - it would be statistically absurd to propose that of all the people working on the game, not a single person cares about whether or not the result of their work is actually enjoyed by people (as long as the money rolls in).

I appreciate your POV and obviously I disagree.

IMO DDO is not different from other MMO games as evidenced in the forums themselves whenever discussions come up about content or character builds. There is a sizable and vocal population that advocates the principle that the only thing that matters is the end game -- L20, raids and epic content.

Irrespective of its actual size, it is this population that Turbine as a business does care about because it is the driving force for DDO. It is this group that explores the limits of character builds, tests the reaches of weapon and spell combinations, attempts record-setting feats and so on. And, it is this group that the remaining players strive to be like.

If Turbine were to alienate this group of players then there would be a decline in the gap between the haves and the have nots. It would be a situation where getting the exceptional was not occurring and where getting the merely difficult occurred instead. The bar, as it were, would be lowered.

And, with a lowered bar it would be easier to achieve and no longer be so special. By being within reach of the larger population the "reason" to play would cease. Why play if that -- whatever that is -- is easily achieved? Where is the challenge?

Turbine as a business entity doesn't need to care about the people striving to attain because there are millions of people still available to try the game. What they do need to care about are the few thousand who set the bar very high and create the targets and goals that the rest of the players aspire to achieve.

The principle of supply and demand is at work here. If the supply is too great there is no demand. Thus, it is not in Turbine's interest to make crafting easy or accessible. Instead it is in their interest to make it appear to be easy and accessible in order to fuel demand but then make it difficult. How difficult is the trick. It must be difficult enough that not everyone achieves it but not so difficult that nobody can succeed.

The power-gamers have already succeeded with crafting. They will post their builds and crafting successes and that will fuel desire. Desire leads to demand. Altering the materials and recipes means that Turbine controls the supply. And that allows them to fix the prices.

Thus, there is always an economic reason for the decisions being made. The goal state is to sell to the casual player who exists in the tens or hundreds of thousands but to manage it in such a way that they are always just short of actually achieving their success.

Look at greensteel items. Do you think it is by accident that you can buy small ingredients but not larges? Or that you cannot by funk, pebbles, etc. -- or pie pieces?

But, if you've ever spent time crafting greensteel you soon figure out that getting small ingredients isn't the hard part. So, why are those what is available?

While I understand your perspective I cannot agree with it. Nothing in real-world business suggests that Turbine would exhibit any behaviour you suggest.

As to the feelings of Turbine's employees -- that is entirely irrelevant. But, in the end it is just a job for them.

[Hafeal]

Yes, to me the game is about 'entertaining' challenges - the challenge to succeed and a sense of achievement in doing so. The beauty of DDO, tracing it back to its pnp roots, is that it was the imagination at work which made the game fun. Taking your thought, below:

The point is to jump through whatever hoops the devs place in it to make the most powerful character (in the mind of each player) and to get as much powerful "stuff" as possible.

... reveals a simple extension of mine. New powers, skills and abilities for characters levelling up require new 'entertaining' challenges. What is the point of having powerful characters if there is no sense of achievement in it? This is the bane of Monty Haul. If the challenges become too easy, it is like eating too much candy - you get sick and stop.

I don't think this dichotomy is limited to DDO, I think it applies to all MMOs. Some handle the dichotomy better than others. I just hope the DDO devs can find a way to smooth out the divide between player styles and break the mold.