Death to New/Casual Players

[KyrzaBladedancer]

Well your intiial thought was blantantly wrong.

It is an INSANEly more difficult, longer and harder grind to get crafting levels up to level of creating near-GS equivalent stuff. (EG: Holy burst, Greater banes)

Talking in the hundreds of hours, and/or tends of millions of platinums to reach those levels.

So no, crafting things on the level of T3 GS was never within the reach of casual players anyways. T3 Shroud gear was and is far easier to get for casual players.

Now some more basic stuff may be within reach - holy/regular bane sure - but thats no where near GS level.. Thats roughly a ~5-10 hour grind, and 1-2 million platinum. The higher stuff is exponentiially far more difficult.

I'm sorry, but no. Only people who wanted to hit crafting level 100 NOW took millions and millions of Plat to reach that level. My brother is currently making those GS equivalent weapons with 8-10 hours invested into the crafting hall and having spent no money at all on items and I am sitting at over 50 in all school, all we did was Decon EVERYTHING we got. The only reason I am not higher is cause I stopped crafting after about 3 hours of crafting hall time.

And if you are counting the time you spend Deconing as part of the time you spend making shards, then you must have the most full DDO schedule ever, cause I know I can find 5 minutes between a raid and decon my 20 quests worth of equipment.

[Eladiun]

Disagree.

DDO was a 100% hard-core ONLY game for the first ~3 years of it's life.

Solo'ing was impossible.
Tough mobs would 1 shot players.
Raids took months to beat. (Titan...)
Elite was to be feared.

It was hardcore, It was fun, and it never died.

Uhhhh... nice revisionist history. Yeah, it didn't die because Dr. House charged in at the last second with a F2P pill to save it.

[My2Cents]

My schedule commitments and frequent/family distractions require that I mostly solo. I am content with the fact that that means everything takes longer for me and several of the features of DDO will not be a good match or be beyond my reach. I enjoy coming to DDO to honor my DnD past, my gaming hobby, and hopefully see some great content and get some great items.

I looked to crafting as a new avenue to better items I would not otherwise get since I don't raid (hirelings not allowed in raids and mine's a hireling based build on top of that.) One other player explained that it costs so much more to craft than to raid and takes so much longer, but I am willing to put in that effort as at least it makes some of these items available to me and I am patient. If I do not have that content available, that limits the entertainment value and things I can strive for in DDO and will hasten my eventual departure elsewhere (no offense DDO, I love the game.)

You are right, I don't have to raid. You are right, I don't have to craft. And you are right, DDO can become a game of only hardcore players.

Am I to be "penalized" because I have life responsibilities and/or because I have had to spend my time meeting real life challenges? I consider myself very fortunate I can even continue to play computer games. I prefer to spend my time in the gaming community that understands this best and welcomes it best.

As a matter of fairness like out in real life I believe the "best" game is one that caters to everyone and that everyone be allowed equal access to fun. As a practical matter, there are a HECK of a LOT of what you call "casual" players who can fork over a few bucks a month for an affordable diversion, funding good development and who can make the community a heck of a lot more fun.

Someday you, too, may find yourself in such a place.

no one asks you to play the game. just like no one asks you to raid. and most importantly. much like you not raiding, you dont have to craft either

not every game /has/ to be for the casual players. sadly turbine has opened this door since it allows more money. sure. but that doesn't mean they have to cater to you. i imagine enough hardcore players have been turned onto the game since it became F2P that turbine can continue to put out DDO content and still make money.

while I agree things like a Dreamspitter and Chattering Ring should not be included in the crafting recipes. I dont mind that they use /some/ raid loot to make it more rare/valuable. now where this line should be drawn on what should be used is another discussion

to all the casual players. just ignore crafting and the game will function as it was before. you will still be able to roll on raid loot(oh right, you dont raid. . .so then it doesn't matter at all)

[ImFour20]

My schedule commitments and frequent/family distractions require that I mostly solo. I am content with the fact that that means everything takes longer for me and several of the features of DDO will not be a good match or be beyond my reach. I enjoy coming to DDO to honor my DnD past, my gaming hobby, and hopefully see some great content and get some great items.

I looked to crafting as a new avenue to better items I would not otherwise get since I don't raid (hirelings not allowed in raids and mine's a hireling based build on top of that.) One other player explained that it costs so much more to craft than to raid and takes so much longer, but I am willing to put in that effort as at least it makes some of these items available to me and I am patient. If I do not have that content available, that limits the entertainment value and things I can strive for in DDO and will hasten my eventual departure elsewhere (no offense DDO, I love the game.)

You are right, I don't have to raid. You are right, I don't have to craft. And you are right, DDO can become a game of only hardcore players.

Am I to be "penalized" because I have life responsibilities and/or because I have had to spend my time meeting real life challenges? I consider myself very fortunate I can even continue to play computer games. I prefer to spend my time in the gaming community that understands this best and welcomes it best.

Someday you, too, may find yourself in such a place.

look at what you're saying. you want something for little or no effort at all. decide not to go into work next week and see how quickly that week's paycheck arrives in your mailbox.

if you're just a casual player soloing stuff. then there is nothing wrong with regular banes. if you want end game loot(crafted or non) prepare to grind for it

[Lissyl]

look at what you're saying. you want something for little or no effort at all. decide not to go into work next week and see how quickly that week's paycheck arrives in your mailbox.

People get paychecks in the mailbox? Really?

Okay, now that my playful quip is out of the way... You're conflating a game (hobby, in my interpretation) with work. Bad analogy. 'Work' and 'effort' are relative terms in relation to a hobby. To some its a 'labor of love' (or extreme annoyance coupled with repetitive xp runs!). To others, its purely entertainment with some amount of effort. Consider model railroading (my uncle used to do that). Some people build this humongous track layout complete with every single tree, person, building, brush, rock, and piece of debris imaginable. They customize their train cars with rust splotches, spend hundreds of hours making it look as completely realistic as possible.

Others put a track together on some plywood and simply enjoy the wonder of the train (okay, I don't get it either, but that's what they all say).

Both of them know that there are 'improvements' they can make. For the high-quality modeller, perhaps he wants to add snow to his entire track layout. Or lighting. To the lower-quality modeller, he wants to start working with terrain height differentials. They both have something to look forward to, and one is DISTINCTIVELY 'easier' than the other.

What's the point? Simple. Without something to look forward to, some incentive, some payoff, there is no purpose for the hobbyist to continue playing. Your point of pursuit may be much higher than his, but trying to tell him to 'be happy with what you have since you dont wanna work for more' is asinine and completely incorrect. The shift in MMO's has come -- once, they were created for the hardcore. This isn't true any longer, regardless of what Shade (for example, not calling you out Shade you're just the one name that I remember this early in the morning ) may remember. Once they were subscription only and f2p was laughable. Those days are gone, and the days of 'hardcore pvp' are gone, the days of 'hardcore raiding' are likewise gone. Some for the better, some for the worse. But saying that a person shouldn't be able to craft something nice because it threatens your 'end game loot' (what is 'end game'? As far as I remember, D&D HAS no 'end') is not only antiquated, it's downright silly.

You're threatening the entire community system of DDO ('passing loot') in the name of greed so you can keep a couple of casual players from having a sword that just may be close to as 'strong' as yours. Think about it.

[PhotoRob]

look at what you're saying. you want something for little or no effort at all. decide not to go into work next week and see how quickly that week's paycheck arrives in your mailbox.

if you're just a casual player soloing stuff. then there is nothing wrong with regular banes. if you want end game loot(crafted or non) prepare to grind for it

Regular banes would be fine except they now require the new shards, too. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=328078 (post 11)

[ImFour20]

But saying that a person shouldn't be able to craft something nice because it threatens your 'end game loot' (what is 'end game'? As far as I remember, D&D HAS no 'end') is not only antiquated, it's downright silly.

no one is saying that. he can choose to put in the work if he wants. its like declining this casual player when you have an LFM up for epic devils assault(because of lack of gear, or proper hp/stats, etc). no one is stopping him from doing that specific quest. but if you dont put the time into your gear and your toon, you're gonna be useless in there.

MMOs are not 'casual only' now, just like they aren't 'hardcore only' but they ALL have an RPG curve to it. you start small, and work your way until you can handle the bigger stuff. you're not gonna bring a lvl 1 cleric into shroud(if it were possible) simply because 'no one is stopping them, they can play how they want'. you gotta gain some xp/lvls. work on your gear, and learn the game.

crying because a lvl 1 casual player can't craft greater evil outsider bane is just silly(exaggerated but still, the same can be said about a lvl 20 casual player. just because you're lvl 20 doesn't give you the right to craft everything you want).

again ill say the dreamspitter and the chattering ring are horrible pieces of raid gear to be used to make end game loot. but having BTC raid gear isn't the end of hte world. i know i'd much rather use that cloudburst that no one rolls for in reavers fate to make a cool item instead of just vendoring it)

[Ryiah]

My schedule commitments and frequent/family distractions require that I mostly solo. I am content with the fact that that means everything takes longer for me and several of the features of DDO will not be a good match or be beyond my reach. I enjoy coming to DDO to honor my DnD past, my gaming hobby, and hopefully see some great content and get some great items.

I looked to crafting as a new avenue to better items I would not otherwise get since I don't raid (hirelings not allowed in raids and mine's a hireling based build on top of that.) One other player explained that it costs so much more to craft than to raid and takes so much longer, but I am willing to put in that effort as at least it makes some of these items available to me and I am patient. If I do not have that content available, that limits the entertainment value and things I can strive for in DDO and will hasten my eventual departure elsewhere (no offense DDO, I love the game.)

Honestly I'm surprised you continue to play an MMO. I'll assume you've already played it, but why not simply play Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2? I don't know if I want to mention Daggerfall or not seeing some of the comments about it on other forums, but at least NWN 1 & 2 were fairly popular. You could probably slip onto persistent worlds and have more fun than you could on here.

If you still prefer DDO or if you've already exhausted the above choices, I'd recommend at least trying to get into speed runs flagging/running the Reaver's Fate. It might take you a while to find one, but the raid is pretty much a pike raid for all but two or three people in the group. You could easily go away from the keyboard while they do it only to step back for the loot.

[blkcat1028]

Well your intiial thought was blantantly wrong.

It is an INSANEly more difficult, longer and harder grind to get crafting levels up to level of creating near-GS equivalent stuff. (EG: Holy burst, Greater banes)

Talking in the hundreds of hours, and/or tends of millions of platinums to reach those levels.

So no, crafting things on the level of T3 GS was never within the reach of casual players anyways. T3 Shroud gear was and is far easier to get for casual players.

Now some more basic stuff may be within reach - holy/regular bane sure - but thats no where near GS level.. Thats roughly a ~5-10 hour grind, and 1-2 million platinum. The higher stuff is exponentiially far more difficult.

With all due respect, Shade. I didn't find it that hard or expensive to craft +4 holy burst + glob. I run my quests, break down the loot I don't keep or sell and craft maybe once or twice a week. I'm in the high 60s in all three schools and have spent a grand total of 3k pp on essences. I did buy one stack of boosters, so that cost a few TP. At most I've spent a couple of hours a week crafting (not counting disjunction time) since it went live. It's well within the range of a casual player, if they have the patience.

[My2Cents]

look at what you're saying. you want something for little or no effort at all. decide not to go into work next week and see how quickly that week's paycheck arrives in your mailbox.

if you're just a casual player soloing stuff. then there is nothing wrong with regular banes. if you want end game loot(crafted or non) prepare to grind for it

I specifically said (I better reread what I wrote?) that I am quite happy to grind, in fact I specifically said how my mode of playing would require substantially more grinding and that I happily accepted that. I do not understand how you can interpret my message as "I want something for little or no effort." And as for employment, I would love to have full-time employment (I have extensive experience) that I could entertain the option of walking from. Consider yourself lucky if you do.

Regular banes are fine for me, and while I don't "need" anything, there is absolutely nothing wrong with my WANTING anything I could possibly have...that's always how I played DnD and computer games. I do not state that I am ENTITLED to anything, but I of course want whatever I can get. If you limit what I can get, you limit how long I will stay. Perhaps you prefer that in your desire to form a hardcore-only community? I'm very hardcore within my limitations.

Whats wrong with wanting to have the most fun in a computer game that I can have?

What exactly is your problem and why are you choosing me as a target? I knew I should not have responded in the first place. I chose to do so for the benefit of other readers.

[Lissyl]

no one is saying that. he can choose to put in the work if he wants. its like declining this casual player when you have an LFM up for epic devils assault(because of lack of gear, or proper hp/stats, etc). no one is stopping him from doing that specific quest. but if you dont put the time into your gear and your toon, you're gonna be useless in there.

MMOs are not 'casual only' now, just like they aren't 'hardcore only' but they ALL have an RPG curve to it. you start small, and work your way until you can handle the bigger stuff. you're not gonna bring a lvl 1 cleric into shroud(if it were possible) simply because 'no one is stopping them, they can play how they want'. you gotta gain some xp/lvls. work on your gear, and learn the game.

crying because a lvl 1 casual player can't craft greater evil outsider bane is just silly(exaggerated but still, the same can be said about a lvl 20 casual player. just because you're lvl 20 doesn't give you the right to craft everything you want).

again ill say the dreamspitter and the chattering ring are horrible pieces of raid gear to be used to make end game loot. but having BTC raid gear isn't the end of hte world. i know i'd much rather use that cloudburst that no one rolls for in reavers fate to make a cool item instead of just vendoring it)

As a total side note, I positively detest the use of 'crying' in a post talking about legitimate (or even perceived legitimate) complaints. It's an (often unintentional) attempt to belittle the argument.

On point, a couple notes. First and foremost, I agree that there is no (or few) 'casual ONLY' MMOs. I never said there were. What I DID say is that there are no hardcore MMO's (with hardcore open for debate...some say EVE is, but I don't do sci-fi so I couldn't say) and that the genre has changed much from the days when they were all hardcore MMO's (Evercrack, need I say more?). Yes, they all have a curve. Yes, you do have to advance your character. C'mon...at what point did you read me talk about ~any~ of this? I never even came close to saying that a level 1 character should be crafting GEOB weapons, or running into the Shroud. Epics I won't touch in commentary -- they are made for the 'hardcore' and I'm content with that. Even the high-quality model railroader I referred to has to have somewhere to go once his snowpack is done, yes?

But since hardcores DO have epic to look forward to, then casuals must have something to look forward to also. That niche is typically (and successfully, in most cases) filled by crafting. The player in question isn't going to be crafting these monumental weapons after running Troglodyte's Stench or Redfang the Unruled; they're going to be doing it at level 17, 18, 19, 20 -- when others are running the Shroud. If there is little difference between GS and highend crafted pieces -- SO WHAT?! They should be approachable by two different avenues -- raiding, and non-raiding. This gives similar options to all playstyles and STILL reserves epics for the hardcore -- something not even Blizzard has managed to pull off. I can't see how anyone could ~possible~ not find this the best alternative, to be honest.

[Satinavian]

do you really need to craft to play this game ?
i don't think so
only elitist players need that

Well, once crafting seemed to be a way to perfectly fitting random loot. By a huge amount inferior to any raid loot of similar level or things like greensteel.

- Exactly what those players who don't like / are afraid of/ don't get accepted to raiding or epics would look for.

And while it would take more loot then what one character from 1-20 would get, it promised to be able to outfit the next one somehow while everything required was only vendor trash. Things, also a casual gamer can collect. Still inferior to named loot and greensteel but good enough for those that do not strife to be the best.

[Ugumagre]

Casual players... there are big differences.
In my friends group we all are casual players, that is, we all work, have family, and so on. So maybe 2, maybe 6, maybe 12 hours a week.

- There is one who wants to "make all the quests till lvl 20" and then more or less leave DDO, and play some other games. The waiting list is long. He doesn't bother crafting, he is having fun, no problems at all.

- There is another guy that doesn´t even bother to optimize his toon. Sick of having him dying all the time, I asked him to give me his password and player name, and allow me to "tune up" his 3 lvl fighter, going to be 4th level.
He had 59 hits. After one hour in my hands, he had 118 hits. Before, 76 plat, after 3000. He did throw away the collectables, essences, gold goins. His collectables bag was not set to autogather... and so on.

- Some other friends only play at the weekends for some hours, no interest in crafting at all. Sell the essences, buy in buyout in the AH, thats all.
- I like to craft, I have fun, I have fun trading in the trade channel, most of the stuff I craft is not really needed. I should play quests instead of crafting, but hey, I am having FUN. PERIOD.

[Yaga_Nub]

I'm sorry, but no. Only people who wanted to hit crafting level 100 NOW took millions and millions of Plat to reach that level. My brother is currently making those GS equivalent weapons with 8-10 hours invested into the crafting hall and having spent no money at all on items and I am sitting at over 50 in all school, all we did was Decon EVERYTHING we got. The only reason I am not higher is cause I stopped crafting after about 3 hours of crafting hall time.

And if you are counting the time you spend Deconing as part of the time you spend making shards, then you must have the most full DDO schedule ever, cause I know I can find 5 minutes between a raid and decon my 20 quests worth of equipment.

With all due respect, Shade. I didn't find it that hard or expensive to craft +4 holy burst + glob. I run my quests, break down the loot I don't keep or sell and craft maybe once or twice a week. I'm in the high 60s in all three schools and have spent a grand total of 3k pp on essences. I did buy one stack of boosters, so that cost a few TP. At most I've spent a couple of hours a week crafting (not counting disjunction time) since it went live. It's well within the range of a casual player, if they have the patience.

I gotta call BS on both of you. I have done nothing but deconstruct EVERYTHING that I get on all my toons and create lots of shards, which I think deconstructed again, and I'm only 42 in Divine, 35 in Arcane and 30 something in Elemental. It most certainly does NOT only take 8 to 10 hours and no monetary cost to get to level 50 in crafting.

[Ironforge_Clan]

i Gotta Call Bs On Both Of You. I Have Done Nothing But Deconstruct Everything That I Get On All My Toons And Create Lots Of Shards, Which I Think Deconstructed Again, And I'm Only 42 In Divine, 35 In Arcane And 30 Something In Elemental. It Most Certainly Does Not Only Take 8 To 10 Hours And No Monetary Cost To Get To Level 50 In Crafting.

Qft

[blkcat1028]

I gotta call BS on both of you. I have done nothing but deconstruct EVERYTHING that I get on all my toons and create lots of shards, which I think deconstructed again, and I'm only 42 in Divine, 35 in Arcane and 30 something in Elemental. It most certainly does NOT only take 8 to 10 hours and no monetary cost to get to level 50 in crafting.

Call BS all you want. It doesn't mean it's not true.

[herzkos]

Disagree.

DDO was a 100% hard-core ONLY game for the first ~3 years of it's life.

Solo'ing was impossible.
Tough mobs would 1 shot players.
Raids took months to beat. (Titan...)
Elite was to be feared.

It was hardcore, It was fun, and it never died.

Today it isn't even close to the same game, but that doesn't mean that such a game isn't viable. Turbine prooved it was.. Well the old turbine, nearly none of the original programmers that created that game are still around.

I joined the game the same time or shortly after GH was released.
at that time, soloing was much harder but nowhere near impossible. it was impossible for me due to
lack of playing ability and lack of resources but that does not mean it was impossible to all.

miss the one shot ability of tough mobs. kept us on our toes and made some people play smarter.

raids, well raids are raids. they nerfed that one before i joined because (IIRC) only one or two groups could
beat it. still glad they got rid of the world message about raid completion or failure.

I miss the challenge and the difficulty of the "old game" but there is a huge difference between
a "hardcore" game and a game tailored only to "hardcore" players. I like others have different priorities.
I'm not going to grind this game 6 hours a day. there is this thing called work and another thing called life.
I know, they're both 4 letter words.

p.s. I don't really care about crafting. if you need the uberest loot (raid or crafted) you should probably
work on your play skills rather than the loot. (last part not directed at shade, i know you've got mad skills )

[Mercules]

look at what you're saying. you want something for little or no effort at all. decide not to go into work next week and see how quickly that week's paycheck arrives in your mailbox.

if you're just a casual player soloing stuff. then there is nothing wrong with regular banes. if you want end game loot(crafted or non) prepare to grind for it

Sounds like he is putting in more "effort" than yourself. As you know anyone can run around with a guild and level and gather loot. In fact a good guild trivializes the content. Running around and doing everything solo is a slower and harder path. So before you try and tell him he isn't working for his rewards maybe you want to think about how hard you are actually working.

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

The thing is that I don't play often enough to join a guild. I play late at night mostly during the year which makes me solo most of the time.

Shade, you are right. Shroud crafting is easier and more efficient than Cannith crafting. However, I don't run Shroud as often as most people who play the game a lot do. Thus, Cannith crafting is more attractive to me because I can casually play my characters dumping my trash to my crafter and craft.

Yes. It takes a long time to level your crafting skill. I'm at like mid/high 30s right now. Still, I'm getting close to at least making some decent weapons for my lower level toons.

And yes, you don't NEED to craft. But for me, I play the game for the advancement of my characters. I like to see my characters get stronger and stronger. Crafting allows you to do that...eventually...which is fine by me since I'm in no hurry. Maybe eventually, I'll be able to TR a character or two.

In any case, since the devs said it was unintentional, we'll have to see what 10.2 brings.

[Veileira]

look at what you're saying. you want something for little or no effort at all. decide not to go into work next week and see how quickly that week's paycheck arrives in your mailbox.

if you're just a casual player soloing stuff. then there is nothing wrong with regular banes. if you want end game loot(crafted or non) prepare to grind for it

Sooo DDO should be a fulltime job if you want to be able to contribute to a party with a bossbeater that didn't take 2 years to gather mats for?

Listen to yourself... please. This is a game, maybe a hobby... it shouldn't be a JOB.