Feedback - Crafting - Update 10, Patch 1

[~angelamm]

Aren't the success boosters enough of a TP sink? I mean I REGULARLY fail recipes with a 65% chance success and I've even failed with an 85% chance 3x in a row. That's either incredibly unlucky or the %chance success isn't really what it says it is...

[Requiro]

Everyone,

The train has been stopped. The patch will not ship in its current state.

I will update (probably via a separate thread) when I have more news, but I can say this:

We will NOT require raid loot as ingredients.

We will NOT require bound named items as ingredients.

Many ingredients, and the *amount* of some of these ingredients were out of line.

These changed recipes should have been reviewed by various designers, but weren't (a hole in our process that we have identified and corrected to avoid for the future).

Mournlands did not have an opportunity to see or comment on these changes.

Again, I'll post more info when I have it.

Our sincere apologies for causing panic, and many thanks to all players who offered their well-thought out and constructive feedback on this issue and tried the changes on Lamannia.

"MudFloyd"

Meh... Classic "Door in the Face" technique

[oradafu]

Just as not everyone wants to make a caster, not everyone has or is willing to make a trap the soul weapon, nor has the plat to purchase soulgems from others players. But everything else currently required (except mystical ingredients) can be acquired on any class, at any level, in just about any content. Perhaps, I was focused on the class perspective but as I said many, many pages back that crafting was supposedly to allow us to craft things we could use as we leveled, to gear us so we could apply to raids and maybe the easiest epics. At this moment Cannith Crafting is open to anyone willing to put in the effort without REQUIRING any particular class, or raid, or epic capability. That may change.

I am on the fence now as to the use of soulgems. Yes the synergy is there, thematically soulgems for Bane recipes makes sense. However, unlike any other current ingredient (except mystical) soulgems would require either access to a particlar class OR particular content OR a possibly large investment of plat. Yes soulgems can be "freely traded" but should they become requirements in this crafting likely they would only be free among friends and guilds. The idea still makes sense; the willingness to overcome anyone of the methods by which one might acquire the necessary soulgem is the crux of the situation. It can be said, and should that if the devs make rare collectibles the chokepoint of the sytem the likelihood of farming or getting what you need randomly is more difficult and ppl will often still need to purchase some off the AH. So those extremely rare collectibles might actually become MUCH MORE expensive than the easier to acquire soulgems. I never said I was flatout against soulgems only that I can see how some people might find it onerous.

I would argue that "the issue the devs are addressing is making it too easy to make Bane shards" is really only one small portion of the problem. A +1 Bane or even Greater Bane weapon is no bigdeal, minimum level 4 or 6 respectively (non RR) and should not be such a hurdle to achieve or acquire. It is the combination of Bane/Greater Bane, with Holy/Holyburst on the appropriate metal weapon, that ppl have been shouting makes the precious MinII from Shroud obsolete. I would disagree with that idea but without taking a poll it would be hard to say how the majority feel about this subject. MinII being versatile against many, Holy/silver/GB vs one race. I would also argue that if the highest level content had a greater variety of mob/boss races this wouldn't be such an issue but that is another discussion altogether.

I'll clarify what I said in an earlier post about making Soul Gems available for people who can't create them; especially since I was just writing something off the top of my head. Soul Gems could be added to the loot tables and included in the current Essence drops. So in slots where a Greater Good Essence or Greater Earth Essence drops, there's also a chance that a Halfling Soul Gem or Strong Earth Soul Gem could drop. Even have them drop in the stacks of gold seem to contain only level 2 scrolls and masterwork arrows.

This would give people a chance to get a soul gem who don't want to:
1) play a caster
2) go through the effort of making an Epic Souleater or GS Vacuum
3) use the AH
4) ask a friendly caster for help in obtaining a soul gem
5) barter with other players to get a Soul Gem

It will be random, so it will be harder for them to get the one they want. Sure, casters would be able to get the ones they want by farming them more easily, but they need to by spell components and successfully use the spell. People with Epic Souleaters will have a slightly harder time farming, since the Trap the Soul isn't reliable all the time. People with GS Vacuum weapons will have an even harder time since the TTS is less reliable than the Epic Souleater.

But this way everyone gets a chance at getting a Soul Gem, just like everyone gets a chance at pulling a Silver/Cold Iron/Adamantine/Flametouched/Densewood weapon that they seek. Besides, the Essences that you crunch are completely by chance also. You don't always get an item that contains the Essence you want when you run a quest. This would be similar.

[societal]

In theory, crafting will create some amount of a mercantile system.

The person needs items to create items.
They farm them themselves or they buy them from others as part of the process.

Crafting was never meant (in theory) to be required to be in house by 1 player, start to finish. I disagree that soul gems pose an issue. If the demand is there, people will make them and sell them. If the demand is not there, people will not make them and sell them. Same for the crafting of items. Some part of the process will have to be handled by the crafter but at least some of it should be allowed to be handled by others. Pretty much every crafting system allows for this and this one should as well. The less you allow 1 person to do it all, the more of a system you create that spreads throughout the game (which they are currently failing pretty miserably at).

[Gremmlynn]

I'll clarify what I said in an earlier post about making Soul Gems available for people who can't create them; especially since I was just writing something off the top of my head. Soul Gems could be added to the loot tables and included in the current Essence drops. So in slots where a Greater Good Essence or Greater Earth Essence drops, there's also a chance that a Halfling Soul Gem or Strong Earth Soul Gem could drop. Even have them drop in the stacks of gold seem to contain only level 2 scrolls and masterwork arrows.

This would give people a chance to get a soul gem who don't want to:
1) play a caster
2) go through the effort of making an Epic Souleater or GS Vacuum
3) use the AH
4) ask a friendly caster for help in obtaining a soul gem
5) barter with other players to get a Soul Gem

It will be random, so it will be harder for them to get the one they want. Sure, casters would be able to get the ones they want by farming them more easily, but they need to by spell components and successfully use the spell. People with Epic Souleaters will have a slightly harder time farming, since the Trap the Soul isn't reliable all the time. People with GS Vacuum weapons will have an even harder time since the TTS is less reliable than the Epic Souleater.

But this way everyone gets a chance at getting a Soul Gem, just like everyone gets a chance at pulling a Silver/Cold Iron/Adamantine/Flametouched/Densewood weapon that they seek. Besides, the Essences that you crunch are completely by chance also. You don't always get an item that contains the Essence you want when you run a quest. This would be similar.

Actually, some would have the chance to get the soul gem they want and for others it would pretty much be a given. So using them really puts no limits on those shards while causing some difficulty for some and just a pointless hoop to jump through for the rest.

I don't see anything positive this would add to the game.

[auximenes]

Leave Cannith Crafting as is: no Raid Ingredients, no Soul Gems, just collectibles and shards.....

/signed

[Rumbaar]

What is the point of Mournlands again? So Lammania's is the Alpha, Beta and Testing 'live' server now?

[EllisDee37]

I'll clarify what I said in an earlier post about making Soul Gems available for people who can't create them; especially since I was just writing something off the top of my head.

Using soul gems is a bad idea, plain and simple. The answer to the question "what's the best class to make your crafter?" should always be "it doesn't matter." Using soul gems makes arcanes far and away the best crafters, which in and of itself would be a bad thing.

[waterboytkd]

The problem I have with soul gems being used for crafting is it requires either:

A) a caster to be involved in the crafting process somehow, or

B) a toon with raid/epic gear to be involved in the crafting process.

The problem with A is that this is a mechanic that is only really useful to melees. Sure, you can make some clickies that casters like (sup Radiance 5 is pretty snazy for FvS and Clr), but the items that are causing the commotion are weapons (holy burst greater banes on the appropriate substance). Forcing casters to become involved seems to be adding more salt to the post U9 wounds melee players are suffering from.

The problem with B is that crafting is supposed to be a slightly weaker substitute for getting raid/epic gear. Requiring said epic/raid loot to do the crafting is...awkward.

Now, the issue that these +5 holy burst dr breaking greater banes are better than end game gear is more an issue with our end game gear. If an epic is designed as a DR breaker, then maybe it should be given some kind of permutation that makes it a bit better than these crafted beaters. If it's not a DR breaker, then who cares if the DR breaker greater banes are better? They should be. It's their entire purpose.

Now, if the complaint is that they're better than Min II's...well, that's a whole different topic. Because, let's face it, Lit II's are better than Min II's against normal harry/sully/horoth. Most veteran players I know consider Min II's a waste of shroud mats. So, this crafting system being better than Min II's...not an issue in my mind, as Min II's seem like expensive jank. ;P

I like it that my Lit II khopeshes are the my universal trash killers, while my crafted beaters are better against their targeted foe (I made devil, demon, and construct beaters). Still need to craft triple positive khopeshes to be my undead beaters (and give me raise clickies and access, if only temporarily, to healing amp 30%).

[Aelonwy]

Actually, some would have the chance to get the soul gem they want and for others it would pretty much be a given. So using them really puts no limits on those shards while causing some difficulty for some and just a pointless hoop to jump through for the rest.

I don't see anything positive this would add to the game.

Good point. As i said before it was the synergy of soul to bane that made it appealing. This just brings it right back to making the rarest collectibles the chokepoint of the sytem so that the likelihood of farming or getting what you need randomly is more difficult. Things like the small/med/large eberron shard fragments, Tome of History of the Houses, Ritual Athame, Stellar Orb, Crystal Decanter, Tear of Vulkoor, etc.

[The_Phenx]

I would like to see raid items able to be used... just not necessary.

I mean why cant I deconstruct one of the 6 dreamspitters rotting away to make a greater evil outsider bane shard, or a base crystal staff.

Have it as a more powerful alternative.

My $.02

Oh and +1 for using soul gems.

[Darkrok]

I would like to see raid items able to be used... just not necessary.

I mean why cant I deconstruct one of the 6 dreamspitters rotting away to make a greater evil outsider bane shard, or a base crystal staff.

Have it as a more powerful alternative.

My $.02

Oh and +1 for using soul gems.

I'll pass on that. In fact, I'd pass on the game with that period. It just leads to everyone keeping every raid item that drops in their name which significantly reduces the chance you'll ever see a raid item up for roll and encourages people to behave greedily. Not the game I'm interested in playing.

[Darkrok]

Oh, and the update is back on with changes 'based on the feedback of the community'...but it's going live before we even get the chance to comment or even see it on Lammania.

Time will tell (less than a day's worth of time to be exact) whether they've truly 'listened to the community' or just decided to ram an update the community doesn't want down our throats anyways.

Personally, as long as they leave raid/bound loot out of it I'll still be in the game. I still think it's a development mistake to make the shards themselves harder to craft - I think the difficulty should be on the shard of potential end instead of the random shards themselves - but it won't break any of the game outside of crafting if they leave out loot desired outside of crafting.

I fully expect though that things like Spectral Gloves will be left in. I disagree with that change as well but don't view it as something that will hurt the community. It'll just make the economy itself ridiculous, with any desired item shooting up in value to crazy levels. Time will tell on that though and as long as they stick to their promise of no bound raid/named items I'll still be around to witness it.

[dingal]

- I think the difficulty should be on the shard of potential end instead of the random shards themselves
.

This

Anyone who thinks the recipes are too cheap has lost perspective on what its like being a newer player. People dont have millions of plat laying around, most dont anyway. The few who do already have epic items etc that fill the slots being crafted.

I've got resources and the only thing I've crafted for my higher level toons are Holy Burst Outsider Banes that I use in Amrath, TOD, Vale and DQ. That leaves about 95% of the game unchanged by what I've crafted.

[Darkrok]

This

Anyone who thinks the recipes are too cheap has lost perspective on what its like being a newer player. People dont have millions of plat laying around, most dont anyway. The few who do already have epic items etc that fill the slots being crafted.

I've got resources and the only thing I've crafted for my higher level toons are Holy Burst Outsider Banes that I use in Amrath, TOD, Vale and DQ. That leaves about 95% of the game unchanged by what I've crafted.

I've put this in the other thread but it's pertinent to what you mentioned.

I decided to do a test with crafting on my son's account. He had a level 9 sorc first life sorc I wanted to level to 20. I decided that I'd level his crafting at the same time. This was after they added xp for deconstructing. I deconstructed every single item that dropped for him unless I needed it. Nothing was vendored. Then I took all the essences I'd gotten and grinded for crafting xp in the most efficient way possible that didn't involve the cheesy '200,000 clicks to 100' method.

During the leveling process from 9-20 I made it to high-20's/low-30's across the board in crafting. This is what your newer player without millions of plat lying around would be doing to level crafting. This is far from broken. I also wouldn't label it as too hard either. Leveling crafting should be difficult and I think my test showed that it actually is for an average player.

That said, once I've leveled crafting it's far to easy to churn out as many items as I'd like for all my toons (assuming I'm one of those people with basically limitless plat). Putting in some non-buyable items as a limiting factor for the shards of potential (items like epic tokens at the high end) would go a long way toward stemming the flow of those high end items into the game.

My biggest complaint now, assuming they didn't completely go back on their word and leave raid/named bound items in crafting, is that they didn't take the time to really think this thing through. They've obviously made up their mind and barring some coding that's beyond anything I could do (and I'm a heck of a coder) they haven't revamped things. They've just done enough to avoid a mass exodus from the game. Given the large amount of quality feedback in this thread that's a darned shame.

[Cyr]

This

Anyone who thinks the recipes are too cheap has lost perspective on what its like being a newer player. People dont have millions of plat laying around, most dont anyway. The few who do already have epic items etc that fill the slots being crafted.

I've got resources and the only thing I've crafted for my higher level toons are Holy Burst Outsider Banes that I use in Amrath, TOD, Vale and DQ. That leaves about 95% of the game unchanged by what I've crafted.

I find it funny when people think that crafting is too cheap. I know people who have spent more on crafting then they have on the most expensive items in the game (marilth chain scroll/chaos blade scroll....) to be able to make boss beaters for their toons. If they could make holy burst of greater bane shards for other people sure it might matter what the one time costs were on these items, but as long as the unbound recipes are adjusted to be costly then there is little real worry that the guy who has bought out the AH could make some boss beaters for their own toons.

If leveling a crafter involved a trivial cost then this would be different, but anyone who has leveled a crafter knows that this is anything but a trivial cost.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Anyone who thinks the recipes are too cheap has lost perspective on what its like being a newer player. People dont have millions of plat laying around, most dont anyway. The few who do already have epic items etc that fill the slots being crafted.

Agreed. And anyone who claims to have gotten to level 70+ in each school while spending less than 100kpp is either full of it, or they got their entire guild (and it would have to be a good size guild) to funnel them all the mats and junk loot they all pulled since crafting came out. Crafting is not cheap.

Additionally, I'm very much not looking forward to tomorrow's patch. The fact that they're not showing us the new changes beforehand screams that they're still raising the cost of crafting, and very likely keeping the use of unbound named items, tomes, and astral diamonds. It's going to kill crafting for a lot of people (probably including myself), and further bloat the already outrageous prices on certain items such as spectral gloves. The cost of making worthwhile equipment is about to skyrocket, I'm afraid.

Also, I have no interest in hoarding every named item I come across, even if it would serve no apparent purpose for me. Inventory space is too limited for that as it is, even with a bunch of mules.

It's all very concerning.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

During the leveling process from 9-20 I made it to high-20's/low-30's across the board in crafting. This is what your newer player without millions of plat lying around would be doing to level crafting. This is far from broken. I also wouldn't label it as too hard either. Leveling crafting should be difficult and I think my test showed that it actually is for an average player.

That said, once I've leveled crafting it's far to easy to churn out as many items as I'd like for all my toons (assuming I'm one of those people with basically limitless plat). Putting in some non-buyable items as a limiting factor for the shards of potential (items like epic tokens at the high end) would go a long way toward stemming the flow of those high end items into the game.

My biggest complaint now, assuming they didn't completely go back on their word and leave raid/named bound items in crafting, is that they didn't take the time to really think this thing through. They've obviously made up their mind and barring some coding that's beyond anything I could do (and I'm a heck of a coder) they haven't revamped things. They've just done enough to avoid a mass exodus from the game. Given the large amount of quality feedback in this thread that's a darned shame.

High 20's to low 30's are very easy levels to reach with little cost or effort. But once you hit 40+, costs really start going up massively. Leveling through the 10's and 20's and 30's really has no resemblance to the difficulty of grinding through the 50's and 60's and 70's, let alone capping. The few who are crying for more expensive costs don't realize this fact, because I'm sure none of them have actually done it themselves. And yeah, I'm worried too about what tomorrow's patch will bring. Chances are they're only making things harder when they were probably already too hard to begin with, and screwing up the economy with named items at the same time.

I'm beginning to believe those who said the introduction of raid loot to crafting on llama was intentional, just to make it easier for people to accept the giant nerf that they actually wanted to push through. Simply make it look tame in comparison to the threat of something ridiculous that was never actually intended at all, and the masses will heap praise on them in exchange for being nerfed.

[MadFloyd]

High 20's to low 30's are very easy levels to reach with little cost or effort. But once you hit 40+, costs really start going up massively. Leveling through the 10's and 20's and 30's really has no resemblance to the difficulty of grinding through the 50's and 60's and 70's, let alone capping. The few who are crying for more expensive costs don't realize this fact, because I'm sure none of them have actually done it themselves. And yeah, I'm worried too about what tomorrow's patch will bring. Chances are they're only making things harder when they were probably already too hard to begin with, and screwing up the economy with named items at the same time.

I'm beginning to believe those who said the introduction of raid loot to crafting on llama was intentional, just to make it easier for people to accept the giant nerf that they actually wanted to push through. Simply make it look tame in comparison to the threat of something ridiculous that was never actually intended at all, and the masses will heap praise on them in exchange for being nerfed.

We are worried that the grind is too much around the high 30's onwards and need more feedback on this. In the past we've underestimated player's abilities and it doesn't help when we see players cap their crafting levels within a day of us raising the limit.

As for your second paragraph, I think we have a smarter than average player base who wouldn't fall for that sort of tactic, nor do I think it is in anyone's best interest to operate like that.

[stainer]

In the past we've underestimated player's abilities and it doesn't help when we see players cap their crafting levels within a day of us raising the limit.

That would be less than 5% of the player base though. You should expect those kind of outliers.