Sarlona Still Undervaluing Sorcs... So Here We Go Again

[Draiden]

My CC Wizard and DPS toon go on timer, and like clockwork, anytime I click on the eChrono LFM there is hesitation and the expected tell... "What are your DCs?"

Okay, Sarlona. I've got you. Just like we did in arguably the best Shroud run ever, we're going to run an all-sorcerer eChrono run. Back up and re-read that last line if you think you read it wrong. Or I can type it out again... an all-sorcerer eChrono run.

This run is going to be incredibly successful based on five basic premises...

1. Sorcs have a rediculous SP pool to draw from and can spam debuffs and CC to get past the slightly lower DCs.

2. Sorcs have faster cool-down timers, so can rinse and repeat debuffs and CC faster than a wizard.

3. A savant's spell DPS is WAY hotter than a melee. And given a big, ugly, purple-named orthon, a sorc can load up on their favored DoTs and elemental awakening for some really sickening DPS that will blow your mind. Go ahead and teleport away, Razorarse.

4. Adding to point #3, it doesn't matter how long epic trash mobs stick in the CC when 12 savants are spamming 1,000+ pt spells.

5. Casters don't have to stand toe-to-toe against an end boss and get blasted with inferno. Run around and DoT away. I think even you sorcerer type players will be amazed.

1-5 Summary. SORCERERS AREN'T ABOUT DCs, but they are VERY GOOD AT WHAT THEY DO.

This event is tentatively set for Friday at 5pm EST. Please post your prefered runtime on this thread and not via private message. Thanks!

Afterthought: I can't believe that I still click on Shroud LFMs and ppl say, "Sorry... already have 2 casters." Break the old mindsets, people. Raid groups are a lot more versatile in makeup than you think. (Yes, party leaders are more than welcome to build a party the way they see fit, but that's not what this is about.)

[TheDearLeader]

Well.. technically, a Sorcerer *can* be about DCs. Now, definitely, they should be about the DCs of their Evocation spells... I mean, Ball Lightning works better when things fail the save.

But still, there are plenty of Enchanter Sorcs that did well for themselves. Naturally, the more past lives of stuff to stack on, the better they tend to be.

Still... I like the thought. All-Sorc eChrono.

Although if I may make a *small* suggestion, as I made to the all-FvS parties... make a small concession, and bring a Spellsinger? There isn't a better party/raid in the world for them to be in, after all.

[Xenaphon]

Yeah.. why make it difficult. Get an easy button.

[Pallol_One-Eye]

I'd be interested, although I can't make 5pm EST for sure. I'll be available around 8:30 pm EST if you are still running.

Since I set up the Original All Sorc Shroud Elite run, back in the day, I'd love to help out on this one as well.

[Quikster]

Well.. technically, a Sorcerer *can* be about DCs. Now, definitely, they should be about the DCs of their Evocation spells... I mean, Ball Lightning works better when things fail the save.

But still, there are plenty of Enchanter Sorcs that did well for themselves. Naturally, the more past lives of stuff to stack on, the better they tend to be.

Still... I like the thought. All-Sorc eChrono.

Although if I may make a *small* suggestion, as I made to the all-FvS parties... make a small concession, and bring a Spellsinger? There isn't a better party/raid in the world for them to be in, after all.

Because in "All X" runs, there is no room for Y duh.

[Pallol_One-Eye]

Because in "All X" runs, there is no room for Y duh.

Someone has their thinking caps on this morning, thats for **** sure.

[Chai]

I almost wish sorcs WERE undervalued on Sarlona, because it would be easier to grab more for my raids, heh.

I am not seeing this to be the case.

[elricken]

Sorcerer's without quality dcs are what give sorcerers a hard time getting into pug epics in the first place.

If you can't nuke and CC/instadeath on a sorc you are a waste of space (imo of course ).

[GrampaBill]

PappaBill is intrigued since there aren't any portals to beat upon, but unfortunately he is still working at his RL job at the proposed run time. He lifts a Niac's in the group's honor.

[Kages]

Sorcerer's without quality dcs are what give sorcerers a hard time getting into pug epics in the first place.

If you can't nuke and CC/instadeath on a sorc you are a waste of space (imo of course ).

Sadly I agree with Morfane... never thought I'd say that with a straight face...

[moops]

I think a bard ruins it IMHO< we never brought one on our all Cleric or All Sorc raids, but to each their own.

Also there are a few sorcs on Sarlona who can actually tank the last boss, and heal themselves --if you wish to try that option.

[Draiden]

Because in "All X" runs, there is no room for Y duh.

Well said. lol

[Draiden]

Sorcerer's without quality dcs are what give sorcerers a hard time getting into pug epics in the first place.

If you can't nuke and CC/instadeath on a sorc you are a waste of space (imo of course ).

Why? That doesn't make any sense to me, so help me understand. You're saying that every melee spot is a waste of space because they can't CC/instadeath? Or are you saying that a melee will contribute more damage output than a level 20 savant? I see your argument, but I'm looking for the premise.

[Chai]

Why? That doesn't make any sense to me, so help me understand. You're saying that every melee spot is a waste of space because they can't CC/instadeath? Or are you saying that a melee will contribute more damage output than a level 20 savant? I see your argument, but I'm looking for the premise.

There are times for nuking and times for instakilling. The well built sorcs do both where the poorly built ones only focus on one then justify it by comparing their DPS to melee DPS touting absolute superiority, where they merely have situational superiority, and even then, on one thing only.

Comparing sorcs to melee is an apples to oranges comparison. I still dont understand why people continue to insist on doing this.

[Draiden]

There are times for nuking and times for instakilling. The well built sorcs do both where the poorly built ones only focus on one then justify it by comparing their DPS to melee DPS touting absolute superiority, where they merely have situational superiority, and even then, on one thing only.

Comparing sorcs to melee is an apples to oranges comparison. I still dont understand why people continue to insist on doing this.

No... we're not trying to compare. Let's keep the conversation moving straight ahead instead of circles. I'll break it down for you...

Hypothetically speaking (yet it happens all the time) LFM is up for eChrono with 2 healers, a bard, a CC wiz, maybe another caster and 6 melees. There is one spot left. A sorcerer clicks to join and the leader sends, "What are your DCs?" Wait... wasn't he just looking for a character to dish out damage? You respond with, "You already have a cc wiz. I can spam debuffs (crushing despair), dancing balls, and hit PWK or PWS when they're off timer, but I can nuke the bajesus out of single or multiple targets and give you the damage output you're looking for." But the leader's thinking is that the sorcerer is a wasted spot in the raid... when he was initially LOOKING for damage output. He or she declines because your enchantment DCs are suddenly their focus? Is he going to ask the barbarian/ranger/fighter/monk what his or her enchantment DCs are? Shouldn't he change his/her LFM to suddenly say, "LF CC caster"?

I submit to you, that it's an old-school mentality of party balance that is the issue. People are so locked into the "need a caster, healer, rogue, bard and 2 tanks" mantality that they miss the reality of DDO. I've seen bards way out DPS barbarians, I've seen divine casters put out more damage and do better crowd control than arcanes. So let's just get some basics covered, bring a character who is a solid contributor and let's bust open some chests already.

Now... just to be clear, I can chug down Yugo pots and DDO store pots for a 41 DC on mass hold monster, and my build has never been TRd. I'm not trying to defend a one-dimensional sorcerer here, I just don't understand the sudden change of requirements when people see the sorcerer icon trying to join the group. Maybe I don't like playing the CC role and would really like to join a group where my only responsibility is backing up the CC wiz and killing stuff... with a sorcerer. Call me crazy.

[Solmage]

No... we're not trying to compare. Let's keep the conversation moving straight ahead instead of circles. I'll break it down for you...

Hypothetically speaking (yet it happens all the time) LFM is up for eChrono with 2 healers, a bard, a CC wiz, maybe another caster and 6 melees. There is one spot left. A sorcerer clicks to join and the leader sends, "What are your DCs?" Wait... wasn't he just looking for a character to dish out damage? You respond with, "You already have a cc wiz. I can spam debuffs (crushing despair), dancing balls, and hit PWK or PWS when they're off timer, but I can nuke the bajesus out of single or multiple targets and give you the damage output you're looking for." But the leader's thinking is that the sorcerer is a wasted spot in the raid... when he was initially LOOKING for damage output. He or she declines because your enchantment DCs are suddenly their focus? Is he going to ask the barbarian/ranger/fighter/monk what his or her enchantment DCs are? Shouldn't he change his/her LFM to suddenly say, "LF CC caster"?

This is a great summary of the situation sorcerers find themselves in. What are your enchantment DCs? Higher than the bloody **** barbarians, that's for **** sure, and so is my DPS. The fact I have a pretty good enchant DCs (I solo caster a lot) is beside the point. If you're looking for a CC Caster, state so. If you're looking for DPS, we ARE DPS. IF anything we have to invest in threat reduction so we don't steal aggro from the hate tanks.

I'm not even going to go into the casters who can tank just fine. I had to convince a guy to let me into a shroud when he had already 3 casters and he was like "no, we need people to surround harry" and I'm like "yeah, well, I probably have more hitpoints than your average PUG melee, I'll tank harry." Thankfully he listened, so I did.

[Xenaphon]

Its not about DC or DPS. Its about playing smart. You can have the most awesome DPS caster but if you play stupid and get killed or lose contain on epic boss, you are a negative.
As for DC, if you are looking for CC and get less than useful DC, it will matter. But the player should know what he can do and what he can't do and play accordingly( i.e. Playing smart).
BTW, why would you want to join an EChrono run by someone who does not realize Sorcs are DPS?

[Quikster]

Its not about DC or DPS. Its about playing smart. You can have the most awesome DPS caster but if you play stupid and get killed or lose contain on epic boss, you are a negative.
As for DC, if you are looking for CC and get less than useful DC, it will matter. But the player should know what he can do and what he can't do and play accordingly( i.e. Playing smart).
BTW, why would you want to join an EChrono run by someone who does not realize Sorcs are DPS?

Yes and dont forget to read party chat

[Raolin_Darksbane]

Yes and dont forget to read party chat

ESPECIALLY if you're one of those types that seemingly ignores everything spoken in voice chat like some of the recent people i've encountered in random pugs

I understand some people are listening to music etc while playing but if that's the case, at least l2reEd.

[Tirisha]

Why? That doesn't make any sense to me, so help me understand. You're saying that every melee spot is a waste of space because they can't CC/instadeath? Or are you saying that a melee will contribute more damage output than a level 20 savant? I see your argument, but I'm looking for the premise.

*evil eyes* Melees are pretty much a waste of space /derail....



On a serious note in regards to the OP. It is extremely difficult to build a sorcerer with good (not saying enough to get the job done) DCs for Epic Chrono and even then you'll likely not have a comfortable Spell Pen unless you have multiple Wizard past life feats.

I don't even see a good reason to waste a feat on Enchantment focus on one of the most feat starved classes in the game. When Necromancy is a much more powerful school in most quests.