Need Assassin build advice.

[Roguish_Existence]

I have played DDO for about a month now and come to the same conclusion I have in every MMO, I enjoy playing a Rogue more than any other class. I have scoured the forums for information on builds and tried to make sound decisions, however, my knowledge of DDO is still very limited so I would like the feedback of experianced players concerning this build. If I do this, I want to get it correct the first time. I intend to start with a 32 point build and if by level 7 I am loving how things are going I will use a +2 tome for all stats. From starting stats, to feats, progression, and enhancements, please provide any constructive criticism you believe will help. Thank you.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
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Deadly Shadow
Level 20 True Neutral Halfling Male
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 20
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    16
Dexterity            16                    24
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         16                    20
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    30
Bluff                 3                    33
Concentration         2                     3
Diplomacy             3                    23
Disable Device        7                    28
Haggle               -1                     0
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  7                    42
Intimidate           -1                     0
Jump                  5                    28
Listen               -1                     2
Move Silently         7                    40
Open Lock             7                    30
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                3                     5
Search                7                    28
Spot                  3                    23
Swim                  2                     3
Tumble                4                    20
Use Magic Device      3                    23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
Enhancement: Halfling Guile III


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning IV


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Halfling Guile IV


Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost IV


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow

[Hobgoblin]

you might try the same stats, but put your levels into str.

with rogue dex + halfling dex you go to 21 dex instead of 24., but you have a str of 21.

you will still get decent damage on nonsneakable things this way

hob

[hcarr]

I would swap your con and int score. 20 hp is better than +1 dc, search and disable from 4 build points. dc will be rarely used and you will still disable all but maybe two to three traps on a one at level if you have level appropriate gear and buffs.

+2 int tome is the only tome that makes a difference at level 7 and that is for the skill points. may save you some turbine points. you will have the dex for the full twf line from level ups.

[Artos_Fabril]

I would swap your con and int score. 20 hp is better than +1 dc, search and disable from 4 build points. dc will be rarely used and you will still disable all but maybe two to three traps on a one at level if you have level appropriate gear and buffs.

+2 int tome is the only tome that makes a difference at level 7 and that is for the skill points. may save you some turbine points. you will have the dex for the full twf line from level ups.

This, but drop int to 12, drop dex to 15, increase str to 15 (ending 22 base with +2 tome; 30 with +6item and rage pot)
Drop ranks in Jump and Tumble to pay for the int loss. (A jump skill of 10 and a tumble skill of 1 is all you really need. more points are just gravy.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

I would not go 16 INT, unless you're going all-out for Assassinate DC's. As was suggested swapping INT and CON would be one way to go. All levelups in STR.

[Roguish_Existence]

So if I am following everyone correctly, I should focus on being a Strength based rogue and my starting stats should look more like...16,16,14,12,8,8. I should take 4 stat increases in STR and 1 DEX (L20) + 1 DEX enhancement would give me 20 and my final stats with the tomes would look like 22,20,16,14,10,10. So I am guessing I would drop Weapon Finesse but what would I pick up, OTWF and use two rapiers or something? Help me out here.

[TheDearLeader]

So if I am following everyone correctly, I should focus on being a Strength based rogue and my starting stats should look more like...16,16,14,12,8,8. I should take 4 stat increases in STR and 1 DEX (L20) + 1 DEX enhancement would give me 20 and my final stats with the tomes would look like 22,20,16,14,10,10. So I am guessing I would drop Weapon Finesse but what would I pick up, OTWF and use two rapiers or something? Help me out here.

5 Levelups into Strength. You'll end up using Epic Items/DT Slots/ToD Rings to even out your odd stats. And yeah, OTWF and Rapiers sounds about right.

[hdogan]

I LRed my dex based halfling rogue assassin to str based one about 3-4 months ago. Difference is significant (I mean DPS).

Starting with 16,16,14,12,8,8 stat distribution is good (as Roguish_Existence suggested) and put STR on all level ups (as TheDearLeader suggested). Pumping INT for assassination DC is not a good idea. And you always won't use your active assassination skill.

I dropped Weapon Finesse and took Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, and she's using rapiers. (and also I took Power Attack).

She end up with 30 STR and 30 DEX.

STR: 16 base +5 level +2 tome +7 item (crystal cove)
DEX: 16 base +2 tome +6 item +2 exceptional +4 enhancements

She rarely misses even power attack on (except some raid bosses).

[Roguish_Existence]

Ok so I have further considered everyones suggestions. I am now comfortable with the base stats and feats, what about the rogue feats and any enhancements or the levels at which I have chosen them? So far, this is what we have worked out together...

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
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Deadly Shadow II
Level 20 True Neutral Halfling Male
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 18
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    23
Dexterity            16                    20
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         12                    16
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               7                 28                   28
Bluff                -1                  0                    8
Concentration         2                  3                    3
Diplomacy             3                 23                   23
Disable Device        5                 26                   26
Haggle               -1                  0                    0
Heal                 -1                  0                    0
Hide                  6                 28                   38
Intimidate           -1                  0                    0
Jump                  3                 17                   19
Listen               -1                  0                    2
Move Silently         7                 28                   36
Open Lock             7                 28                   28
Perform              n/a                n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                  3                    3
Search                5                 26                   26
Spot                  3                 23                   23
Swim                  3                  6                    6
Tumble                4                  6                    6
Use Magic Device      3                 23                   23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
Enhancement: Halfling Guile III


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning IV


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Halfling Guile IV


Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost IV


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I

[hdogan]

It looks OK. But I'd prefer bluff instead of diplomacy. (it may help when soloing).
As for enhancements, I'd prefer rogue dex II and halfling dex II. (drop haste boost?) But it's not a problem to they can be reset.

[Roguish_Existence]

It looks OK. But I'd prefer bluff instead of diplomacy. (it may help when soloing).
As for enhancements, I'd prefer rogue dex II and halfling dex II. (drop haste boost?) But it's not a problem to they can be reset.

I have read that bluff is somehow broken or less usefull and that most people focus on taking diplomacy because it makes the mob turn away from you and back onto the tank. While I know when you solo this is useless, how would you find it beneficial overall or justify taking over diplomacy?

[delsoboss]

I have read that bluff is somehow broken or less usefull and that most people focus on taking diplomacy because it makes the mob turn away from you and back onto the tank. While I know when you solo this is useless, how would you find it beneficial overall or justify taking over diplomacy?

Oh they changed bluff, and boosted it: before you had a long animation were you should stand still and point your finger and say "hey look behind you the dragon!" and get 1 sneak attack, waste of time; now the animation just delays a bit your next attack and you get 4 seconds of sneak attacks against the bluffed mob. Furthermore now bluff gives you a short time reduction in the hate generated by your swings. The mayor drawback right now is the 15 seconds cooldown that it shares with diplomacy.

And many players suggest to take bluff for soloing because if you use it on a monster in a pack while stealthed only that monster will come to you, so pull with bluff, get behind a corner, kill the monster, rinse repeat untill the 5 mob group is a lonely mob wondering why all his friends went away.

EDIT: Oh where are my manners ... Welcome in our thieves guild mate!

[Roguish_Existence]

Oh they changed bluff, and boosted it: before you had a long animation were you should stand still and point your finger and say "hey look behind you the dragon!" and get 1 sneak attack, waste of time; now the animation just delays a bit your next attack and you get 4 seconds of sneak attacks against the bluffed mob. Furthermore now bluff gives you a short time reduction in the hate generated by your swings. The mayor drawback right now is the 15 seconds cooldown that it shares with diplomacy.

And many players suggest to take bluff for soloing because if you use it on a monster in a pack while stealthed only that monster will come to you, so pull with bluff, get behind a corner, kill the monster, rinse repeat untill the 5 mob group is a lonely mob wondering why all his friends went away.

EDIT: Oh where are my manners ... Welcome in our thieves guild mate!

But does this justify taking it in place of diplomacy? As it stands I only have enough for one unless I drop something like hide or move silently which I have read are also not entirely necessary skills for this game?

[delsoboss]

But does this justify taking it in place of diplomacy? As it stands I only have enough for one unless I drop something like hide or move silently which I have read are also not entirely necessary skills for this game?

Oh well now that's a good question: if you usually play in pugs or with firends or guildies or whatever, don't solo much and trust in the tank hate generation and your hate reduction then diplomacy is probably better, to use in the "oh s**t" moments when the tank rolls a 1 on intimidate, gets held/stunned/whatever. And even if you solo you can always bring along an hireling and dump the hate on him/her with diplomacy, so all-around probably diplomacy is sill better except for dedicated soloers.

I have both skills but if you have points just for one go for diplomacy.

[Relenthe]

never drop haste boost.

[delsoboss]

Enhancement wise (if you care about DPS and having more APs) you may consider to drop Rogue Damage boost IV since it's not needed to qualify for anything and as was explained to me it isn't a good boost to dps since the activation time will cut your swinging time and make you lose more than you gain (the same CAN'T be said for haste boost that is always a gain DPS wise). Dropping the damage boost gives you 4 APs to use elsewhere.

Feat wise you may consider to change the order of your low level feats: i'll go with toughness at first level, twf at third level and otwf at sixth level. The reasoning behind this is that twf at low level sucks because of the -4 or -2 penalty to both hands (depending on weapon usage) on a class without full bab and because of the low percentage of offhands proc you get (40% with twf), and more hps always help, maybe more at low levels where you can't wear gs hp items superior false life items exceptional con items and such. So for low levels go with a two hander (since you're strenght based too) or weapon and shield and then switch to twf when the benefits are more than the drawbacks.

[TheDearLeader]

(drop haste boost?).

Wat?

never drop haste boost.

Ah... that's much better.

[Infant]

This might sound silly, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Skill Mastery is a better choice instead of Slippery Mind as the last Rogue Bonus feat -- +1 to all skills including UMD is just nice.

You could also consider rearrange your stat points to get a higher starting charisma in order to get 39 UMD at level 20. But that strongly depends on what gear is available to you.

Infant

[Roguish_Existence]

Ok, I have made suggested changes to feat progression and enhancements accordingly. I dropped Damage Boost III and IV for more will saves and hate reduction. Moved Haste III to level 12 and Haste IV to level 17. Overall I think this scales a bit better. As for taking Slippery Mind over Skill Mastery, my train of thought was more saves or an extra chance at making a save in a department rogues are already lacking is better than a simple +1 skill boost but I could be wrong, I am not a number cruncher. So lets review said build...

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Deadly Shadow II
Level 20 True Neutral Halfling Male
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 18
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    23
Dexterity            16                    20
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         12                    16
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               7                 28                   28
Bluff                -1                  0                   10
Concentration         2                  3                    3
Diplomacy             3                 23                   23
Disable Device        5                 26                   26
Haggle               -1                  0                    0
Heal                 -1                  0                    0
Hide                  6                 28                   40
Intimidate           -1                  0                    0
Jump                  3                 17                   19
Listen               -1                  0                    2
Move Silently         7                 28                   38
Open Lock             7                 28                   28
Perform              n/a                n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                  3                    3
Search                5                 26                   26
Spot                  3                 23                   23
Swim                  3                  6                    6
Tumble                4                  6                    6
Use Magic Device      3                 23                   23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
Enhancement: Halfling Guile III


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning IV


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Halfling Guile IV


Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) II

[brzytki]

I'd drop Damage Boost III and IV since it's a waste of APs and u probably won't be using it (i hope) and take more Subtle Backstabbing (w/o it u'll be pulling aggro pretty fast, especially if u use haste boosts and that's when diplo comes into play) and maybe Extra Action Boost.

I'd change the order of rogue's special feats as well. imp evasion->opportunist->crippling strike/skill mastery. Slippery Mind won't do u any good so u can drop it as well.

I'd rather have both diplo and bluff on my assassin (and i do) but if i were to choose between the two i'd take diplo. You might want to not max open locks and put no points into jump to take both. Jump caps at 40 and the spell gives u 30 points in it, add ur STR mod and there is absolutely no reason to put any points in jump.

EDIT: Ha, u beat me to it with ur new build. However, some of my points still stand. Slippery Mind would be more beneficial to u if u took it at mid levels but it's obviously not better than imp evasion or opportunist, so taking it at lvl 19 won't give u much unless u plan on soloing, which is highly unlikely since u've played for a couple of months only.