"Wrong Race"???

[Kalari]

Why should your fun ruin my fun?

I have no problem with people playing fun builds, just don't be surprised when you get declined to groups because you're playing an off color build.

So your saying his build will ruin your fun without playing with them? Yeah there are people who dont know how to build they have to learn and they want to have that comfort of doing so.

To me when I read stuff like this I understand the mentality I still don't agree with it. You are the same type to me who send tells when I am playing my elven fighter saying "you know you get -2 to con right?" or "A half orc would have been better.."

Seriously? So because in your world efficiency and speed is best there is no elbow room at all for people to play their way? There are plenty of ways to avoid in this game people who you feel will take from your fun. It doesnt give anyone the right to keep sending tells and messages to someone to re roll that to me is a hell of a lot different then just accepting people into parties.

Lack of respect for peoples want to approach the game is where I draw the line its simple as that. You may not like his build but you have plenty of options including avoiding him. he has options including finding friends or a guild to enjoy the game his way. Its when people dont understand that and start using words like gimp, re roll your not going to have fun because I can only see the game from my own perspective that gets me so mad. Fine he may not get to roll with the big dogs but maybe thats not why hes playing. I wonder how many posters keep that in mind when they come with their "re roll advice?"

[insaneuou]

There is always reroll or Tr, jst have fun

[Cyr]

Couple of things OP.

• Your toon your build I can understand that, but also remember that others have every right to reject questionable builds from their parties under the their party their way also.
• Horc IS a poor racial choice for a sorc. Unless you are building a melee sorc (not that I recommend this) I can not think of a worst racial choice. Taking a hit to your primary stat (cha) for pretty much no gain in the build really hurts.
• 10 Starting Con is actually a bigger deal then horc...see the next point.
• The player behind the toon is the most important thing, but even the best players play better the better their toons are. The game is a numbers based game and pretending otherwise always gets people in trouble. That said, different builds often play better depending upon the skill of the player behind the toon. Most players need the extra buffers that self healing and extra hp provide on a sorc. Hit points are incredibly important on any build. Often the difference between success and failure in quests is the survivability of an arcane or divine build.
• People will often flock to the 'flavor builds' defense on the forums. It often becomes a defacto 'right to self determination' that players feel is being attacked. In some cases it is, but in most cases instead it is merely those with lots of game experience trying to help people avoid mistakes that can and do make their toons worse then they can be. Many of us remember our early build mistakes and remember that re-rolls are not fun nor are toons that are outclassed due to build choices.
• The assumption often is (and statistically is more often correct then not) that a player behind a build with dramatic build weaknesses (such as a horc sorc) is a less knowledgable and less skilled player. This can lead to less group invites and longer fill times on groups you put up yourself. Often this becomes an issue near end game as most of the time people don't much care how gimped their party members are before then since they generally could have just soloed the quest instead of putting up the LFM for some company.

[Kalari]

Couple of things OP.

• Your toon your build I can understand that, but also remember that others have every right to reject questionable builds from their parties under the their party their way also.
• Horc IS a poor racial choice for a sorc. Unless you are building a melee sorc (not that I recommend this) I can not think of a worst racial choice. Taking a hit to your primary stat (cha) for pretty much no gain in the build really hurts.
• 10 Starting Con is actually a bigger deal then horc...see the next point.
• The player behind the toon is the most important thing, but even the best players play better the better their toons are. The game is a numbers based game and pretending otherwise always gets people in trouble. That said, different builds often play better depending upon the skill of the player behind the toon. Most players need the extra buffers that self healing and extra hp provide on a sorc. Hit points are incredibly important on any build. Often the difference between success and failure in quests is the survivability of an arcane or divine build.
• People will often flock to the 'flavor builds' defense on the forums. It often becomes a defacto 'right to self determination' that players feel is being attacked. In some cases it is, but in most cases instead it is merely those with lots of game experience trying to help people avoid mistakes that can and do make their toons worse then they can be. Many of us remember our early build mistakes and remember that re-rolls are not fun nor are toons that are outclassed due to build choices.
• The assumption often is (and statistically is more often correct then not) that a player behind a build with dramatic build weaknesses (such as a horc sorc) is a less knowledgable and less skilled player. This can lead to less group invites and longer fill times on groups you put up yourself. Often this becomes an issue near end game as most of the time people don't much care how gimped their party members are before then since they generally could have just soloed the quest instead of putting up the LFM for some company.

Cyr I can respect what your saying and its true a lot of people do come from that perspective they come with the thought that I know the pain of having to even delete builds I thought would be fun (ya know before the whole LR, GR and TR thing was introduced).

But there is a line between friendly advice from people who want to help the op and those who send him tells saying re roll

there is even a difference of people who constantly come in with their talks of dc's/ usefulness to parties and what not.

without knowing this persons play style what they are expecting out of the game cause hell they may even just be a role player. I think its pretty unfair for those who cannot think outside their fun to tell him not to build around a race he likes. I know what makes me un comfortable build wise I just dont do it I dont make it where others can't and thats what I see a lot in peoples advice. They may mean well but were turning our game into an "you must play this way to succeed place" and I dont like that at all To me it was more fun in the earlier days where even if you made a build that screwed up you were still free to do so. Whatever happened to letting people learn? Or letting people have fun their way? I find that is becoming lost and its sad.

[stainer]

@op
With the way you described your build, you may be unhappy with it at higher levels. Your DCs will cause you to struggle to land spells in higher level content. Your con could cause you some issues since casters tend to draw agro. You could end up frustrated at times.

That being said, I have a friend that has a Horc Cleric that I would put up against any cleric in game. Of course it is a third life TR (cleric,fvs,cleric) and some extra build points.

Unusual class/race choices do not scare me.

[aristarchus1000]

Your character, your build, your game. But also remember their character, their build, their game. Both sides need to be sensitive to what the other player may be looking to do.

If they are heavily reliant on you filling a particular role in a group, they have the right to be selective so that they can have what they consider fun. If you choose to play an abnormal build or less-than-optimal one, then you should be ready to handle the relative stereotypes they carry.

The veterans often try to guide newer players, and I don't think you should always assume it is elitism. I've suffered the pain of leveling up a weak build on my first character and the frustration of feeling like I've wasted months of play. I've seen many in-game friends leave due to that frustration, because they weren't willing to throw away that time and start over.

Personally, I tend to recommend new players to play relatively well accepted builds until they have one character reach 20 and they get a good concept of life at level 20. It is not because of some min-max elitism, it is simply because I think they'll enjoy the game more and that they are less likely to just quit in frustration later. Experimentation if fun and good, but like many things, you need to master the basics first.

[Cyr]

Cyr I can respect what your saying and its true a lot of people do come from that perspective they come with the thought that I know the pain of having to even delete builds I thought would be fun (ya know before the whole LR, GR and TR thing was introduced).

But there is a line between friendly advice from people who want to help the op and those who send him tells saying re roll

there is even a difference of people who constantly come in with their talks of dc's/ usefulness to parties and what not.

without knowing this persons play style what they are expecting out of the game cause hell they may even just be a role player. I think its pretty unfair for those who cannot think outside their fun to tell him not to build around a race he likes. I know what makes me un comfortable build wise I just dont do it I dont make it where others can't and thats what I see a lot in peoples advice. They may mean well but were turning our game into an "you must play this way to succeed place" and I dont like that at all To me it was more fun in the earlier days where even if you made a build that screwed up you were still free to do so. Whatever happened to letting people learn? Or letting people have fun their way? I find that is becoming lost and its sad.

I agree, sending tells is a ...well I don't feel like getting an infraction for an accurate description of how I feel about that.

I don't think there is huge value in letting people fail on their own though or 'fun' in their own way by keeping silent. LR's don't correct racial choices and cost money or more plat then a new player is likely to have. Explaining these things to new players is helping them learn. You shouldn't be mean to people, but yeah it is helpful sometimes to inform players of things they might not know. In the case of the OP, sending them unsolicited tells out of party not so nice...if the OP was in party complaining about their spells not landing or how they kept dying then that would be a more appropriate venue to discuss these things. In this case the OP made a thread about this so it's the perfect place to discuss these things.

As always I enjoy the back and forth Kalari. Nice to see you posting again.

[Kalari]

I agree, sending tells is a ...well I don't feel like getting an infraction for an accurate description of how I feel about that.

I don't think there is huge value in letting people fail on their own though or 'fun' in their own way by keeping silent. LR's don't correct racial choices and cost money or more plat then a new player is likely to have. Explaining these things to new players is helping them learn. You shouldn't be mean to people, but yeah it is helpful sometimes to inform players of things they might not know. In the case of the OP, sending them unsolicited tells out of party not so nice...if the OP was in party complaining about their spells not landing or how they kept dying then that would be a more appropriate venue to discuss these things. In this case the OP made a thread about this so it's the perfect place to discuss these things.

As always I enjoy the back and forth Kalari. Nice to see you posting again.

thanks its good to be back and I agree with help I just dont want to see ddo become a game where no one feels free to try and experiment. It may seem like a burden to some but I viewed it as a luxury. I remember the days of putting together builds that looked good on paper but playing them made me realize nope this wont work. I remember my archer rogues/ fighter wizards/ cleric rogue types many didnt get passed the goodblades but I had fun building them. The few that made it to twenty (archer rogue lol) Now got the benefit of actual TR into something else but I took it as yes I learned hands on what not to do and my comfort zone.

People always think meaning well means more then what their advice does. Its like going up to a heavy person and saying "you know you'll live longer if you lose weight." Sure its a fact and true and helpful but it also can be taken as mean to the person getting the advice especially if they are not soliciting such. I took this OP as is it fair that I am getting tells from people who just see my race and class mixture and telling me to re roll. And I agree if his thread had been "well I made a half orc sorc but I am not feeling effective what did I do wrong?" That would be a perfect opening for "re roll" or here is why your not effective. DDO is a big game and many players approach it differently its why we have perma death, role paying guilds and the like. I love our unique blend of personalities and fear the days our game becomes a power our way threw everything environment.

Sorry if I seem fired up but coming back to the boards ive been worried about the stuff thats been bandied about as the norm now.

[Doganpc]

I still have nightmares about the # of Sibery's I spent "fixing" my Drow Rogue/Wizard. Which reminds me...
Drow Rogue/Wizard with 12CON, Repeater Spec'd: Check!
Drow Rogue/Monk with 14CON, Two Weapon Fighting w/ Shortswords: Check!
Elf Pally/Monk with 14CON, Two Weapon Fighting w/ Longswords: Check!
Elf Pure Cleric with 12CON, Arcane Archer Spec'd without Monk: Check!
Half-Elf Bard with Paladin Dilletente: Pending 50% Helf Sale.

If you got this far, my point is none of this really matters until you're grinding epics.

Dogan
So far all I've played is "Gimp"

[soulaeon]

To play devil's advocate, I have to say there are some cases where someone's build can ruin my fun. For example, rolling 10 Con or less because one thinks they dont need more tends to annoy a lot of people when they join their raids.

[azmodeus1]

sorry not going to sugar coat it for you, you're a gimp.

all these people saying 'oh well play how you like' and 'it doesn't matter your build as long as you're having fun' are lying to you.

it does matter...IF you are planning on playing with other people in this mmo. as for experimenting, forget it. all the information is on this forum. there are dmg calucators feat/build optimizations, people have worked this game out and have experimented already, feel free to read about the builds until you find a decent one you like and are interested in trying.

currently you will be disciminated against, squelched, insulted, kicked from parties, shunned from end game raids/epics...not necessarily by me, but it will happen, and i don't think it will be much fun for you or make you enjoy playing your horc sorc.

im not against your build. as the game currently stands a mediocre horc sorc will probably outlvl a multi tr'd well geared melee, and be of more use whilst levelling. i personally want to tr my cleric to a horc b.cleric using blue dragon armor, cus it would look very cool and be decent enough at healing, but i will not...at least until i get enough extra cash to make the armor expense trivial.

[Aztek]

This may seem slightly off topic, but it's not. I built a toon who is to be my bestest haggler. I decided to make this my light repeater build b/c i have such a fun collection of banishers, paralyzers, burst, greater banes, etc. Pure bard. Sword-and-board when not repeating. He's more of a utility build and not uber DPS by any means. And he's drow. which is good for CHA, but not good for melee since i was trying to get really high dex and cha, but not dump con, etc. which means his STR is less than I'd like it to be etc. and INT is auto.

the point being is... i've played around with enhancement choices and got him now to pretty decent utility build (crowd control, healing, UMD for other buffages, spellsinger) but he's not a great soloer etc. if i'm trying to go fast. Slow and in control, he does OK. So he's still 14. Unless I restart or add rogue levels etc. for the new mechanic stuff, I think I am just going to have to run with my friends and guildies for the most part unless a group is just looking for bard buffs/songs/etc.

So you can play builds that many will shun or poo-poo, but you might have to (as others have suggested) play with people with similar playstyles or who are willing to help you out with a little more support than they might have to give other builds. But again, the player does help too. I've seen uber-geared players with copied-right-off-the-forums builds that die way more than my utility (Batman) builds I've had and tweaked since my first build (a really bad Paladin who was a great Healing Amp trapsmith until they nerfed it a bit a mod or two ago).

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This your first toon. Play him as long as he is fun to play. If you decided you would like to play something else, then make another.

There is only one thing wrong with a Half Orc Sorc, -2 Cha.
And yet people love playing WF Sorcs that also have -2 Cha.... go figure.

I think it's kinda cool actually.

My first Sorc was an Elf. (the worst race. ) and I love playing her. I did GR her at lvl 20 and made her more sturdy.

In fact, I have GRed/LRed almost all of my old chars at around lvl 18ish. The game changed along the way, my understading of the game changed too....etc.

I say keep on going and see what you want to do with him later.

(now go out there and say "Half Orc Sorc" three times fast! )

[Sirea]

I find it really rich that there are people condemning H-orc sorcs on the basis that they will have bad DCs, when the same people probably wouldn't think twice about recommending a WF sorc, when WF get the same exact penalty to DCs that a H-orc would.

And before you say "well WF sorcs can self heal" guess what, so could a H-orc sorc with enough of a gear investment. It wouldn't be quickened reconstructs but it'd be better than nothing.

Simply being a H-orc wouldn't be enough for me to tell someone they're gimped as a sorc. If they splashed levels of, oh I dunno, wizard and cleric, and had say a 12 CHA and maxxed DEX and WIS, then yes I'd say they're gimped.

[Dispel]

Horc CHA:
16base +7item +4tome +3enhancements +5leveling +3exceptional +2ship_buff =40

This is not counting yugo pots, etc. I always plan for a +2 tome and +6 item, then replan if I get higher.

[Kalari]

I find it really rich that there are people condemning H-orc sorcs on the basis that they will have bad DCs, when the same people probably wouldn't think twice about recommending a WF sorc, when WF get the same exact penalty to DCs that a H-orc would.

And before you say "well WF sorcs can self heal" guess what, so could a H-orc sorc with enough of a gear investment. It wouldn't be quickened reconstructs but it'd be better than nothing.

Simply being a H-orc wouldn't be enough for me to tell someone they're gimped as a sorc. If they splashed levels of, oh I dunno, wizard and cleric, and had say a 12 CHA and maxxed DEX and WIS, then yes I'd say they're gimped.

Careful there when saying stuff like that were sugar coating. Were promoting stuff that is against the "norm" ugh I didnt want to take over the Op's thread and made my own but its simple as this if hes having fun not hurting party with his builds who are we to tell him his class/race combo should be re roll?

yet by the thread I created no ones doing this no one is telling people end game is the only way to play ddo. No ones telling folks that its about being optimal because the game is about grind../sigh

I still maintain what I told the OP and I hope he continues to have fun and ignore those who cant see past their own standards, he didnt ask for build advice he asked why people are sending him tells that hes playing the wrong race non solicited advice sucks in my opinion.

[Kelavam]

Hello, I've been playing for a while and currently I'm playing my horc sorc (love saying that) yet for some reason I keep getting tells from people telling me that my char is "gimp" and that I should reroll, I don't really feel like wasting the money I spent on buying half-orcs so I'm asking you guys, why does race matter so much? should I not be judged on my ability to play and not by what choices I made when I made MY character?

i have not had the pleasure of reading the entire thread yet, but let me tell you - regardless of what you choose, you will recieve some flak from someone. 1- you are not munchkined enough. 2- you are too munchkined, (less likely to be heard, by far) 3- your gear stinks..

Personally, I think it's great that you chose something different. I hate the whole "min/max" aka munchkin mentality. You are here to have fun, so have fun. If people limit you joining groups because you have something different, then that is not a playstyle you want to be included in anyways, as they they are typically going for a fast completion. Honestly? Find a like minded guild and run with them. Forget the puggers that shun your unique choices.

I would not reroll, I would play the character and prove as many people wrong as possible.

[stainer]

I find it really rich that there are people condemning H-orc sorcs on the basis that they will have bad DCs, when the same people probably wouldn't think twice about recommending a WF sorc, when WF get the same exact penalty to DCs that a H-orc would.

When I said it, I should have been more specific that with all the choices the op made, it would be a difficult character to play at end game. Extremely difficult for a new player.

I was trying to say it as respectfully as possible too.

ps <--capped a WF Sorc.

[countfitz]

The real problem here that nobody has pointed out isn't that Horc Sorcs = gimp (they do, but not the point) but that the OP dumped Con on a Horc to get more intelligence for skills. Now, if you want a Horc Sorc for flavor, roleplaying, go for it, but at least try. As in, play to its strengths (or strength). Battle Sorc would be an idea here. Now, why do I mention the problem being Int? Dumping Con, which you NEVER do, for Charisma or Strength would be UNDERSTANDABLE (still gimp) because you either want to be a better caster or melee. But you failed to realize you can't melee or survive without Con. BUT, to do it for Int on a Horc makes no sense. Horcs get 1 skill point for 6 int. 1 Skill point for 8 int as well. So you'd need FOUR build points to be starting out with the score a Human or Drow would simply start with.

That is where the real problem lies, the lack of understanding stats, builds, strengths and weaknesses, etc. Four build points, in my opinion, being squandered, is much worse than a flavor build.

[Rakian_Knight]

With the low con, I'd go ahead and drop the dime and get a lesser reincarnation. Bare minimum would be 12 con, preferably 14 or 16 if you have the spare points. You can probably find a tome or two on the AH to get your Int and Cha up.

I will say this, and even though most of you won't believe me when I say this. If you know what you are doing, and aren't a front-line melee character, you can live with just 10 base con with only a +2 tome even in epics. I've done this with my wizard, cleric, and rogue. You just need to know how to play those types of characters.

Ask yourself this? Do you like your character? If you do, learn how to play it and have fun and you'll do better than most of those who are sending you tells saying you did it wrong. Still reminds of a Rage Mage I made in pnp. That was fun.