"Wrong Race"???

[Flavilandile]

Hello, I've been playing for a while and currently I'm playing my horc sorc (love saying that) yet for some reason I keep getting tells from people telling me that my char is "gimp" and that I should reroll, I don't really feel like wasting the money I spent on buying half-orcs so I'm asking you guys, why does race matter so much? should I not be judged on my ability to play and not by what choices I made when I made MY character?

I didn't read much of the thread beyond the first few posts.

I'm going to add my two (euro)cents to the thread...

Some people tend to measure e-peens by how your 'build' work. ( as they can't decently measure it against each other through the almost non-existant unbalanced PvP )

If you did not minmax and plan your character from LVL 1 to LVL 20 you will be a gimp to these people because you will do poor choices along the way.

For example I have a nice Halfling Cleric with the full set of Dragonmark of Healing... and no quicken, no toughness, Con 12. She is by their definition a gimp [ low HP, no quicken ] but she still has lots of hjeeelage powah when she is out of mana, and if the melee do their job, of keeping mobs off her, well she is great at destructing things as well as healing. In my case it was deliberate. ( but I have other gimps [ still by the definition of the minmaxers, like the one in my sig, that can survive quite well in Epics... )

The point of all the above is people will look at you from the minmaxing point of view, and anything that is not minmaxed will be bypassed in PUGs.

Personally, I come from PnP, and my main PnP Game is Rolemaster... where Minmaxing is a nightmare when it comes to character development. So I just create and level my characters the way I feel them. Sure a good number of them are gimps from the PUG minmaxer point of view, but as I play mostly in guild or in groups with friends from other guilds it doesn't matter, as long as I can handle myself, do what I'm expected to do when I'm expected to do it.

All in all, what really matters is if your having fun with your character. If you do find people willing to group with you, and eventually, if you're not already in a guild, find a guild with the same play style.

[NoidRoid]

Meh, I don't really see this as an issue of min/maxers being snobby elitists. You've chosen the worst possible race for your toon and people are judging you based on that fact. They're assuming that you're a bad player or a casual/fun player who wouldn't fit in with Vet/TR zerg lfms and declining you from said groups.

One of the two is probably true and I would decline you from my zerg groups as well, based on the preceding assumption. Unless of course I knew you to be a good player who rolled that toon for.. some reason..?

[MindCake]

should I not be judged on my ability to play and not by what choices I made when I made MY character?

How's your ability then? Please excuse, but I doubt you're better than an average pugger. And you're weighted down by your build.

If you were any good, I figure an average bystander would think "it's probably some pro with account full of capped chars doing silly things because they're bored", or ask you "how does that build work?", instead of telling you about rerolling.

[soulaeon]

WF (more HP, self healng, -2 penalty to CHR)

How is this best for a sorcerer compared to the others? They have the same exact penalty to charisma, which means they are exactly as efficient as a half orc, as far as spell DPS.

[Kalari]

Gonna ignore any other advice and speak to the OP

Are you having fun with your sorc? Are you doing your best and bringing what you can be it nuking survivability or what not to your party when you join?

If you can say yes to this especially if your having fun and are happy to heck with what others send you in tells. I feel bad for people who can't keep their views on how to play ddo to themselves. Unless you ask people for build advice do what I do cause I go threw the same with my elves let it go in one ear and out the other or squelch if they become rude.

No one can pick your path to fun, no one should tell you what race+class combo you can use to be viable if you find a way to make a race you like work. Sorry if I seem fired up but threads like this make me angry it makes me disappointed in players who choose to harass their fellow players for this to.

OP I hope your enjoying the game your way and don't let people like that bring you down.

[Solidsteak]

Thank you kalari, you reply was kind and helpful, yes I do try to do my best and yes I very much enjoy it.

[Kalari]

Thank you kalari, you reply was kind and helpful, yes I do try to do my best and yes I very much enjoy it.

Np I get fired up when people are criticized by the "better then thou's" who can't see outside whats fun or optimal for them. Who dont bother to understand that not everyone approaches DDO the same way. It bothers me when people are harassed for their choice in fun by those worrying about "end game" if you need the perfect race/class combo for end game I dont think your as elite as ya trying to come across

Glad you enjoy yourself and keep your head up the game is fun and playing your way more fun then conforming believe me

[stille_nacht]

How is this best for a sorcerer compared to the others? They have the same exact penalty to charisma, which means they are exactly as efficient as a half orc, as far as spell DPS.

the whole "self healing part" makes WF sorcs insanely survivable.

anyway, you will be fine if geared and whatnot, only 2 cha and a feat behind humans. so really, a maximum of 2 dc behind, not game shattering.

the main problem is that people will assume that since you are a H-orc that you are either:
A- a fleshie melee sorc (people dont like this)
B- a noob who doesnt know about sorc (true or not, this might be assumed)

its more about the assumptions than anything.

[Zerkul]

Hello, I've been playing for a while and currently I'm playing my horc sorc (love saying that) yet for some reason I keep getting tells from people telling me that my char is "gimp" and that I should reroll, I don't really feel like wasting the money I spent on buying half-orcs so I'm asking you guys, why does race matter so much? should I not be judged on my ability to play and not by what choices I made when I made MY character?

Well confronted to a human or drow you have -2 to all DCs like a warforged does but without the wf self-healing capability. For sure there are better races for sorcerer than half-orc, but, since it's a game and the fundamental thing is to have fun, stylish solutions like yours can be fun to play. Remember you can get to a 38 DC with yugoloth pot and ship buff on all spells without any spell focus feat, so if you play clever you will be able even to CC most of the endgame content (debuffing is always the way make sure you have a good Spell penetration check). But only if your skills is high enough to compensate ... have fun!

[Gkar]

How is this best for a sorcerer compared to the others? They have the same exact penalty to charisma, which means they are exactly as efficient as a half orc, as far as spell DPS.

Incorrect. They have the same downside as half orc, but while the half orc str boost is of use only to Melee Casters, the ability to self repair is invaluable on a caster. You can take a heck of a lot of agro and a quickened reconstruct will get you out of it most of the time. Also, unlike horc, you get the minor benefit of all the WF immunities. You can even wear armor at low levels without spell failure or taking a feat for just a couple APs.

WF give up 1 or 2 DC but get a heck of a lot in return.

Horc gives up the same DC and gets... um... a cpl points of str.

[Standal]

OP,

I think you should strongly consider rerolling. If you insist on Horc, do some research and choose a class that has synergy with Horc. If you insist on Sorc, do some research and select a good sorc build.

I've made and had to abandon bad builds before. I've watched my guildies push builds until they just totally broke and were completely ineffective. You're going to be very short of HP. You're not getting any benefit to your sorcerer abilities by being a Horc.

I want you to have fun with DDO. Unfortunately, I think the thing that will cause you to have the most fun is to abandon your current toon and start over.

[Antheal]

Thank you for all the replies, just so you know i've got 17 cha base at lvl 6, that is bumped up to 20 with some buffs and a lvl 10 con base.
Also I play this character for fun and not really for whats best, I've had enough elitism in WoW...

Forget the Charisma, having 10 Con will seriously damage your ability to have fun playing your character because you'll be dying all the time.

[stoerm]

I'd also recommend the horc warchanter, perhaps try it as an additional character to your sorc. I've played with some and they are very powerful. To my understanding the trick is not to max out cha, but focus on str and con instead. I'd recommend you take a look at the bard builds on the forums for details.

As a final word, I kept rerolling my characters as I became more aware of the mechanics and saw what I had done wrong. In hindsight I could have played almost any of those deleted characters to cap. There's no need to strive for perfection in the beginning, but on the other hand playing a bad build can be painful at higher levels. It's about finding a balance. If you start feeling the pain, you know it's time to reroll or reincarnate.

Good luck and enjoy the game!

[steelblueskies]

Please see the threads on- instant death in epics, casters are overpowered, and dots.
These individuals would like to ensure that not being min max is non viable, either intentionally or as a side effect of their experiences. Horc is not min/max. You will be weaker at instant death which they would remove, the dots with no dc based save they want to drum into dirt, and they wish to drop your other dps and sustainability as well.
Make sure to chime in at all three with your scenario and how they aren't accounting for players like you.

[pHo3nix]

How is this best for a sorcerer compared to the others? They have the same exact penalty to charisma, which means they are exactly as efficient as a half orc, as far as spell DPS.

+2 CON, +2 CON from racial enhancements, 4 racial toughness, wf immunities, quicken reconstruct and docent of defiance: i think it's more than enough to compensate for a -2 DC

[Kmnh]

Unless you are really enjoying the half-orc benefits, reroll. People are stupid, and fighting against stupid to get to play a game is way too much.

I can see a half-orc melee sorcerer delivering the beats, though

[DoctorWhofan]

Hello, I've been playing for a while and currently I'm playing my horc sorc (love saying that) yet for some reason I keep getting tells from people telling me that my char is "gimp" and that I should reroll, I don't really feel like wasting the money I spent on buying half-orcs so I'm asking you guys, why does race matter so much? should I not be judged on my ability to play and not by what choices I made when I made MY character?

<<looks at her own sig.>>

Drow cleric? check.
WF cleric? check.
Horc cleric? check

Rolling out clerics outside the racial comfort zone...priceless.

meh.

THey are not the BEST, but they are fine. DDO has fudging room in that regards. Besides, even playing all the same type and class, I have to spice it up a little. They work just fine. Anybody pre-judging you before you play have their own issues.

[Oracle_Gil]

Hi Solidsteak,
I have only read your post and not rest of the thread. Dont listen to those who use the word 'gimp'. It is abused and over-used word, a fad to label and put down someone.
Now this will be a long post with some details.
That aside, why others dont want you in their party?

At low-level
That is because most of the groups are set. They play the quest in a set way, and they dont want to change their playstyle. So they want a melee swinging sword with so-called dps, healer behind the tank to heal, sorcerer even further behind casting crowd control which melee cut down... or something those lines. Such groups are common at low level content.
You having less DC means your spells will fail more often. You would charm but kobold will have a save. And -2 DC means a lot more than -1 DC as probability Vs save graph is arrhenius (bell shaped). This means that having -2 DC will mean 1.3 (hypothetical number) times more failures than -1 DC. So if at 0 DC you fail 10 time, at -1 DC you will fail 11 times but at -2 DC you will fail 13 times. (numbers are hypothetical but you get the idea).
Pratically, this will mean that your spells points will drain very very fast compared to 0, and very fast compared to -1. So you will find yourself lot into situation where you have no SP left and are "dead weight" to party according to those people (not me). That is why you are refused and the reasons are logical.
However, if you are a good player, you can turn your weakness into strength by thinking out of box. How? There are many many ways, however I havent ever tried that flavor, I can only suggest. Because someone before has not done this, you are not buying a house, but building a house. If somebody wants a melee cleric, its done by somebody else, so they can just see that build and create (*copy... shhh...*) the build.
In your case, you need to know a few points:

1) Buffs have no DC. So buff yourself up, take a large bat and beat the mobs. Take the points off CHA as you wont be casting many cc spells - but keep enough for these no-fail spells, put them to str and con. I think there is a sorcerer build which can act as a tank somewhere in forum. Try to look for it. They say it is very tight but do-able. That person also would have put a lot of hard work into making it which people would usually joke about. Look into special feats of orcs to see how can you make use of them. If orcs are brutes then their sorcerers would not be casters but brute spellclubbers or something. So feats should fit like that.

2) If you dont want to do that, (because even if it is intresting, it is very difficult for us new people to game - at least for me) then know your weaknesses. If you want to cast, find items to increase your deficient stat. Get more SP bar by grinding for items. This will be time-consuming and grinding, but if you like your toon, you would grind for that. And in current game, most of the so called gimped builds can be made so-called not gimped but items/pots and farming. For example, look into collectibles list from house D or favor pots from house P. Very few players use that because game is easy enough to not use them.

At high level:
A) Make some friends in game. Later quests a lot of PUG fail and would be very frustrating for you when all the blame would be shifted to you for the party wipe, very unfairly. So know what players are levelling with you. Here you have a plus point. Because your build is different, they will remember you. If you would be levelling along with me, I would always accept you invite later and joke around with you about build, because that is very good time-pass while waiting for players to get buffs etc. Have a sense of humor and enjoy the game.
B) At high level content, you would be asked about certain roles... sometime, just 'you should know the quest' etc. Sometimes there are certain roles. If you have a flavor build like in 1 I said at low level part, your selling point would be, I can easily tank XX boss on elite, etc.
3) Some items in end game are very unique and may help you. For example bracers which when hit give you sp back on each crit, etc. Such items would be helpful if you want to melee etc. However to do that stuff you would need lot of knowledge of game and would need to ask some'elite' players in game. From elite I mean who know a lot and are helpful. If you join a good guild u can sure find such players. or somewhere else.

Most elite players I interacted with always say two things:
- The game is very easy and any gimp chatacter can be capped.(though good thought out builds will cap easily)
- TRs are overpowered, once you TR you can solo most of the content at level on any class.
(Because I am relatively new, I ask a lot of questions)
- (third said to me once only) Barbarians not using great cleave regularly are missing something important.

Take any comment/advise with suspicion and try to know more about it.

So in the end I would like to summarize:
"Wrong Race"??? - No, not wrong. But nobody has worked with it before. So as first time working with it, you can take a long route (point 2 discussed above) or a smart-cut(short-cut) [point 1]. Long route means lot of grinding, smart-cut means lot of thinking about build and testing. Both would be grinding but when you succeed, would be exceptionally rewarding (like man reaching the moon )

[my horc sorc (love saying that)] If you really love it, you wont mind frustrating hours and those would be 'good hours of hard work' for you - for your horc sorc.

[people telling me that my char is "gimp"] Forget them. Be thick skinned. These kind of things are fad. When you hear one word a lot, you like to use them everywhere trying to exaggerate the situation. Try to find friendly people in game who are more tolerant. I usually avoid people who I think are control-freaks. I follow soverign host so I try to be soverign myself (jk)

[that I should reroll] People re-roll because they find that it would be easier to level a 16 CON sorc rather than 10 CON sorc. They just want to level quickly. Is that your goal, to level as quickly as possible? Then re-roll. But if you want to play horc-sorc and dont mind a bit of grinding (because during grinding too, you are playing something you love) then ignore these things. I personally like humans and make all my characters humans. If they introduce devil or demon with -4 INT, I will still make a wizard. But perhaps because I cant make a crowd control wizard, I might make a vampire-demon wizard. DDO is very customisable. You can even try to make a paladin healer(maybe splash a sorcerer or something for SP). It may not be best but with trial and error I can make it workable.

[judged on my ability to play] This is how people who have already quested with you once will judge you, not those who never quested with you. They may also respect you for your strength or make fun of your shortcoming. And so because they know how you play, together your team would be better than two strangers put together.

[not by what choices I made when I made MY character] These are also very important. How you made your character means how you will play. Rangers get TWF feat even with low dex. If you dont know that and put all points needed in DEX just to get TWF feat, it is not optimal. This means you have not worked hard to make your build. However you are your own judge of that, so listen to everyone, but dont think of their opinions as facts. Learn about them.

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-- From a person who is not that good player himself - my only skill is that i die last when party is dying because i am good at 'escape' skill[perhaps I am a potentially good piker] , but has seen very good players, e.g...
drow clerics who keep everyone alive, are not TR and lead in kill count in TS raid. Ranger who sneaked the claw of vulkoor when assasin rogue with uber hide/silent failed. A cleric who sneaked around beholders to grab our stones to shrine (everyone knows cleric are skill point starved and wear armor with penalties). Rogue who acted as a healer in reaver refuge run - good healing and assassinations. A wf wizard rasing dead, and using heal on party - arent they supposed to have low CHA and no need for UMD?. An AA who anoyyed all the melee and casters because he kept slaying the 'durams' - one or two shot and DOOM!!! and they are supposed to be 'gimp'.

The possibilities in this game are endless. Dont be restricted. Go play. And enjoy
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And if you dont agree with my opinion, very good. You should form your own opinion. Have fun!

[Iaga]

Np I get fired up when people are criticized by the "better then thou's" who can't see outside whats fun or optimal for them.

Why should your fun ruin my fun?

I have no problem with people playing fun builds, just don't be surprised when you get declined to groups because you're playing an off color build.

[Gkar]

<<looks at her own sig.>>

Drow cleric? check.
WF cleric? check.
Horc cleric? check

Rolling out clerics outside the racial comfort zone...priceless.

meh.

THey are not the BEST, but they are fine. DDO has fudging room in that regards. Besides, even playing all the same type and class, I have to spice it up a little. They work just fine. Anybody pre-judging you before you play have their own issues.

Drow, WF, and Horc all add something to a cleric while not harming the primary casting stat. It's not quite the same thing.