"Wrong Race"???

[Solidsteak]

I know, I mean people wont take you if your gear isn't epic or you're a different spec than usual

[Gkar]

Debatable indeed!

Personally, I see Helves and Humans as the top choices. Everyone always says "But WF can heal themselves! and +CON!!!!" But they forget that with a human sorc, even on a first life 32 point build, you can easily get UMD to a point where heal scrolls are at 90%+ for you. That's some real self-healing there! Helves are even better if you take the FvS Dilletante and spend some AP on it, because then you get all the divine scrolls/wands up to level 10 at 100% no matter what your UMD score is (though, really, what else are you gonna put skill points into? Balance?) And both of these choices offer no penalty to CON or CHA so you can max them both, even on a 32 point toon and start with 18's.

This leaves WF and Drow as second-rate choices for me. WF immunities don't matter much to me, but the fact that you can't wear robes does (which is most of the current caster armor, only a few good docents out there and most of them are VERY recent additions). The additional CON can be useful, but really it doen't give you THAT much more survivability than Human or Helf. Drow on the other hand take too much of an HP/CON hit, and with Savant Tier III abilities having their DC based on CON, this just spoils it for me. I know they're not super useful, but really it's nice for it to work when you do use it.

Horc is right out, though.

Yeah, I almost put "in no particular order" for that reason.

The only issue with self healing is scroll healing in battle is just not the same as hitting a quickened reconstruct spell.

[Enoach]

You will be certain to run into people that will question your choices. The reason for this is the Horc's starting -2 to charisma. Which does come out to about -1(18 base) to -2 (20 base) DC by end game with all things being equal.

Again all things being equal that will place you approx. 52 SP behind.

The only advantage of a WF Sorcerer becomes the access of the Self Healing through Repar/Reconstruct

However, advantage of a Horc is that their starting Strenth without any points is 10 making enfeeblement less of an issue at lower levels.

================================================== ===============
Everyone has fun in different ways - Some by being a Min/Max and others by building to their liking. My feeling is don't play something your not having fun with, it is a game after all.

Min/Max players go for what they see as OPTIMAL power and are usually among the first to complain when things change that no longer makes their path OPTIMAL.

And for the record you would be welcome in any of my Parties until you had proven that you should not be.

[Gkar]

Thank you for all the replies, just so you know i've got 17 cha base at lvl 6, that is bumped up to 20 with some buffs and a lvl 10 con base.
Also I play this character for fun and not really for whats best, I've had enough elitism in WoW...

OUCH.

Ok, the CHR is where I would expect it to be, 4 behind drow, 2-3 behind human/helf, and 2 behind everyone else.

10 con however was a much bigger mistake. There is just no excuse not to start with 14 con - I know its only 40hp difference at end game but as someone who has played a 10con sorc to cap...you need every bit you can get or by mid game you will be hurting the party.

And its not a matter of elitism. If you'd seen my characters you'd know that I'm far from elite :P I'm lucky to have 1 epic item on a capped character.

[Solidsteak]

Ah, I didn't put too much into con as I wanted to throw some into int. Thanks for telling me and I guess i'll have to keep up with con/false life items to make up for it...
And I don't think you're elitist, there's a line between helpful and elitist, you're being very helpful instead of just saying "noob, u didn't do it right u suck".

[Stormanne]

With the low con, I'd go ahead and drop the dime and get a lesser reincarnation. Bare minimum would be 12 con, preferably 14 or 16 if you have the spare points. You can probably find a tome or two on the AH to get your Int and Cha up.

[Iaga]

I tend to get tired of the attitudes people have that their way is the only way. People need to stop and remember that this is only a game and that most people play to have fun.

True, but you have to remember that what's fun for one person isn't fun for everyone.

I like to efficiently run through dungeons. I don't mind some fun, and i don't need to "zerg" - BUT - someone playing an RP build who doesn't mind failing a quest repeatedly because they're having a good time would **** me off to no end.

I'm not saying one way is better than the other - just remember that "fun" means different things for different people.

[Gkar]

With the low con, I'd go ahead and drop the dime and get a lesser reincarnation. Bare minimum would be 12 con, preferably 14 or 16 if you have the spare points. You can probably find a tome or two on the AH to get your Int and Cha up.

I'm not sure I would. At least not yet.

IF the OP follows his plan to keep +con items, +false life items, and fort items on the charcter they will be squishy, but workable, as long as he is careful with agro.

If later he finds it isn't working and he's dying a lot, then yes, LR to 14 con.

[Arel]

... and a lvl 10 con base...

Ouch.... There's part of your problem right there. Con is NOT a dump stat. Period. No matter what race/class you are, you want at least a 14 base before racial modifiers, if not more.

You might get some weird looks with a sub-optimal race/class combo, but a lack of Con will get you rejected from most high-level groups that check your DDO page right out. If you're only lvl 6, I would, personally, highly recommend scrapping the character and re-rolling; you'll save yourself a lot of frustration in the long run doing so.

EDIT: You mentioned putting some points into INT... might I ask what skills you are getting? The number of skills that are actually useful in DDO are remarkably few, and some are downright terrible. Even if you choose keep the points, we might be able to help you steer them into something more useful.

[Chai]

Game play is different than build decisions. I see people make what would be considered poor build decisions and then their game play crushes that of the people who are openly critical of them. Many people who first start playing and come from a background of FPS or APM games many times are good players, who lack character building knowledge.

[Solidsteak]

by now I can tell I've messed this char up a fair bit :P
I've spent most of my points on UMD (for health scrolls), Concentration and bluff (for aggro)

[KreepyKritter]

OUCH.

...

And its not a matter of elitism. If you'd seen my characters you'd know that I'm far from elite :P I'm lucky to have 1 epic item on a capped character.

For future reference, Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite — a select group of people with intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit.

In this case, it has nothing to do with toons, and everything to do with attitude, and the fact is there are quite a few people (Min/Max players) who think like this in terms of builds. If it's not optimal, or you don't have X item, you're gimp and that's it. The platitudes are endless.

'AA's are gimp because all they can do is kite'

'Rogues are squishy, so they have to stay behind the tank in combat'

'Clerics are only good for healing'

'Elves are too squishy, they make terrible (insert class here)'

However, to quote Sigtrent, probably one of the most prolific builders on the board, from waaaaay back in the old Crunchy Bits. 'There's no such thing as a 'best race' for each class, every race has something to contribute to any class'.

So your Horc had to come up from -2 to his Charisma. Who cares? It also meant you get racial bonuses to two handed fighting, +2 to strength, which at low levels can help if you run out of SP. Happens a lot if you're not use to having to manage your blue bar, or if you need to knock the last sliver of red off a hobgoblin, but your nuking spells are on cooldown.

If you're having fun with what you're doing, keep doing it. Nobody else here is paying your sub. On the other hand, you're not paying theirs either so they're well within their rights to not let you in their quest runs.

Bottom line, have fun, do what you enjoy, build how you want to build, but be mindful of the results of where you spend those 28/32 points.

Another way of saying it would be 'It's not what you play that matters. It's how you play it.'

[Sirea]

With the low con, I'd go ahead and drop the dime and get a lesser reincarnation. Bare minimum would be 12 con, preferably 14 or 16 if you have the spare points. You can probably find a tome or two on the AH to get your Int and Cha up.

Or since they're only level 6, it'd be relatively easy to start over instead of spending cash in the store unnecessarily.

Just take enough INT for Concentration and UMD (you'll only need 2 skill points per level). Max out CHA and put as much as you can in CON if you're only planning on a casting build.

[Doganpc]

Hopefully you're using Master's Touch and a Two Handed Weapon which Horc's do synergize with which would also make you a decent melee option while your leveling up to the point that your spells matter. Definitely not the easiest choice and I know cause all I want to play is Drow, but have had to make concessions to fit the game environment (hence the 32ptElf that looks Drow).

If you like having a caster and want to avoid some of the criticism (raid snub's are starting to irk me now) I would suggest you try Warchanter with your Horc. You can easily get by with a 12 Charisma (provided you equip a +CHA item) as you use your SP's & songs to make the party stronger and then swing away your free time.

Dogan
Play what you want, but realize there are consequences.

[GotSomeQuestions]

by now I can tell I've messed this char up a fair bit :P
I've spent most of my points on UMD (for health scrolls), Concentration and bluff (for aggro)

Those skills are fine, it's absolutely worthwhile to have UMD and Concentration, and bluff can be situationally useful (although you likely won't need to put maximum ranks into it). It's also worth considering 1 point (2 ranks) in Tumble, and some points in Balance.

In general, the lower levels are flexible enough that you can get by with characters that aren't completely maxed out. 10 Con vs 14 con is just 12 hp at level 6, it's easy enough to compensate with items or even False Life/Aid clickies. It's only much later that you start to really want the best numbers that you can get. But if you're having fun with the character now, enjoy it! You can always retire/reroll/reincarnate them later if it stops being fun.

[Solidsteak]

If you like having a caster and want to avoid some of the criticism (raid snub's are starting to irk me now) I would suggest you try Warchanter with your Horc. You can easily get by with a 12 Charisma (provided you equip a +CHA item) as you use your SP's & songs to make the party stronger and then swing away your free time.

This interests me... I'd keep my caster-ability but make the most of horcs inherent strength, I might try this out.

[Galeria]

There's snarky elitism and then there's truly helpful advice. It's no fun playing a character that can't be effective, you know?

If you know what you are doing and you like it like that, tell everyone else to bugger off.

But if you really aren't sure what's important, helpful advice really is how you learn because there's sooooo much in the game that is "common knowledge" to seasoned players that really isn't intuitive.

That being said, I played with a HORC wiz the other day and he rocked. I even looked him up to see what he was doing right, then asked him about his build because I didn't see anything especially unusual in his stats. Turns out he was just a really good player that knew what he was doing.

[Gkar]

This interests me... I'd keep my caster-ability but make the most of horcs inherent strength, I might try this out.

This is actually quite fun.

For low levels on a wiz/sorc (up to say 8ish) I often take Master Touch and a Charm spell. Augment summoning as a feat (which later you will trade out) is also very helpful.

Grab a greataxe and destroy stuff. Toss out the odd charm when the numbers are against you to help even the odds and make them kill each other. Very effective.

If you have the cash for it (and you may not as a new player) heroism potions, bull strength potions/wands, and bear potions/wands are a good suppliment for that type of agressive play.

The only caution here is you better make sure you are wearing those HP/fort items or you might bring more agro on yourself than you can handle.

[Samadhi]

Race is secondary choice in DDO. I remember people declining my dwarven wiz from pugs, cos its not optimal in their opinion. You orc will get -1 DCs and -(9+lvl)SP/level, and -3+lvl skillpotions, but theese are not huge modifers. You will be a little weaker than sorc of other races, but if your skills and playtyle will be good, you will be above the masses.

This is truth.

[Rawel_San]

<snip>

'AA's are gimp because all they can do is kite'

'Rogues are squishy, so they have to stay behind the tank in combat'

'Clerics are only good for healing'

'Elves are too squishy, they make terrible (insert class here)'

<snip>

Anyone that says this isn't an elitist but rather an idjeet.

AA's are gimp because ranged combat is borked and they have trouble getting anywhere near the DPS of
melees not because they can only kite.

Rogues are only squishy if you build them wrong and in either case they should not be behind the tank but on
the other side of the mob getting sneak attacks unless they happen to be tanking.

The one thing all elitists keep saying is "Please don't play healbots. Clerics can and should be played offensively
in 99% of the content".

The last one is the only one that is sort of true, but the biggest problem with elves is that they get very
little back for the loss of 2 con, (extra dex is useful on few builds, and on those it is the con penalty often
smarts a lot and the racial enhancements aren't incredible). They have gained some ground with the
spell pen enhancements.

The one thing elitists do often keep repeating over and over is don't dump con, get heavy fort and if you're
going to build a flavor build own up to it and call a spade a spade.

At least that's what the elitists that IMO satisfy the definition posted say.
Just my 2 copper,
Rawel