Min2 or Lit2 first Greataxe

[svinja]

actually, i think in most cases a min II would be better vs a marilith (especially against the holy cold iron of COB, though still better than the holy burst cold iron of GCOB). the real question is, how much are you willing to invest into dealing slightly better damage against a single meaningful enemy in the entire game? the only one that even matters is queen lailat on epic, really.

What do you mean by "in most cases"? How does a min2 come even close to a +5 holy burst cold iron GCOB against a marilith? I just don't see how you're getting this result.

[Illiain]

There are only 2 benefits for a Min2.

One, it breaks DR on almost everything and frees up inventory space. If you're the type that hates having 20 pairs of weapons cluttering up your bag space and you're willing to have lower dps for a cleaner bag then they're the weapon for you.

Two, you have an odd feat starved caster/melee build and can't spare the Improved Critical feat. On trash and anything not immune/resistant to acid Min2's deal respectable damage. It's still less than Lit2's, unless something is immune to lightning, but better than random drop weapons.

If neither of these situations can be applied to you, then you're better off making the Lit2s for higher damage and crafting the +4 holy burst (silver/cold iron) GEOB as boss beaters.

[Khanyth]

Min II

1. You get a great weapon starting at level 12, which you can't for the EAGA
2. A DR breaking weapon is fantastic
3. If you have multiple toons, GS items can come quicker than crafting levels

It's personal opinion, I guess

[Morosy]

3. If you have multiple toons, GS items can come quicker than crafting levels

Well you mention multiple toons making it easier to farm for GS, but simply having multiples means a lot of greensteel to make :O

The situation you listed would benefit a lot more by reaching the crafting levels only once, then making weapons for every char, instead of repeating a weapon grind every char.

And as for having a great weapon at level 12, yes it's awesome, but if you just craft a Lit II it's even better at 12

[Shade]

meh.

too many people talk and post recommendations as if the only thing that exists in the game is pit fiends.

not the case.

If it was.. Sure, dont worry about the min2.

But its not. Not nearly.

Mineral2 are defenitely still an awesome all around weapon. Even if you already have a crafted hSlob wep crafted.

Because no matter how many times these crazies try to tell you the only thing we fight in this game is pitfiends - they are wrong.

A Hslob is good for:
pit fiends

A mineral 2 is good for:
pit fiends (a Hslob has a very minor dps advantage)
constructs
mariliths
flesh renders
all other demons..
constructs - any with adamantine dr, which is nearly all of them
mind flayers
tharaak hounds
elementals, undead or any 100% fort target not resistant to acid as a min2 has very solid base dmg + lots of acid damage.
.. think you get the point.

Mineral2: Best all-around until you can get a ESoS.

HSlob: Like it sounds.... Serves one purpose.. slobbering pitfiends.

Now you could go and craft a dozen different greater banes in various metal types.. But thats really not that easy nor cheap. Was be far more cost effective to just get the min2 and be done with it in 1 go.

Lit2 is nice too, but covers far fewer monster types as theres no dr breaking and quite a few differnet monster types have lightning resistance/immunity.
And for what its best for- trash devils.. It gets obsoleted by ESoS.

Mineral 2 never quite becomes 100% obsolete. I mean I have a rather insane assortment of weapons including almost all of the above (esos, globshober, various GS. And I still pull out my min2 for certain targets, very few yes.. but not quite all...

There's also the TR reason:
Min2 like all shroud weps are ml12.. Min2 at lvl12 is ultra powerful and pretty much is the only weapon you need for several levels as its enough to tear down everything at that lvl. Now sure a lit2 may also be, but min2 is a better all-around.
Not sure what ml the hslob is.. whatever it is, its not a great tr wep as it only covers 1 enemy type you dont encounter much at lvl12ish anyways.

And if they didn't screw up belasherra and make him a weak punk, i could of used ito n him.. Freakin 12 dr on elite and he dies in 5 seconds.. Lord of beholders my *!@#.. Meh.

[Jaid314]

What do you mean by "in most cases"? How does a min2 come even close to a +5 holy burst cold iron GCOB against a marilith? I just don't see how you're getting this result.

min II: 3d6 base + 2d6 holy + 1d6 acid burst +1d4 slicing +5 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 6d6 base + 4d10 acid +10 enhancement on a 19, and an additional 4d6 acid beyond that on a 20.

that's: 5% miss, 85% * 27.5, 5% * 80.5, 5% * 94.5 = 32.125 damage/swing (average)

HB CI of GCOB: 1d12 base + 2d6 holy burst + 3d6 bane + 9 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 2d12 base + 4d6 holy burst + 18 enhancement on a critical hit

that's: 5% miss, 85% * 33, and 10% * 78 = 35.85 damage/swing (average).

so ok, it's pretty close, and slightly in favor of cannith crafting i guess. with a FB getting an extra multiplier on the critical, it probably swings further in favor of cannith crafting actually (the +4 from bane multiplies indefinitely, none of the burst/blast effects go higher than x4 iirc). but at least you do need to get up to that greater bane and holy burst first, so it's a bit more competitive (35 cannith crafting is easy, 65+ is a fair amount more grind involved)

also, looking at shade's list...

constructs (you listed twice): ideally you will have a bludgeoning adamantine weapon. min II (especially greataxe) does not fit that goal. further, clay golems heal from acid damage, it deals less damage in general to some of them, and most won't take the min II holy damage.

mariliths: as was just shown, eventually cannith crafting pulls ahead. in the short term, yeah... i guess min II is a pretty good margin ahead. but again, are you really going to burn 24 larges just so you can be a tiny bit better against the demon queen?

flesh renders: the holy/cold iron/COB weapon is, again, pretty close. the HB/CI/GCOB weapon is superior.

all other demons: same as mariliths and flesh renders. if these were more common, it might be a concern, but we really don't fight many of them at all.

mind flayers: if there were any particularly challenging ones in the game, i'd be worried.

tharaak hounds: have you gone mad? tharaak hounds are immune to acid damage.

elementals, undead, etc: ok, slight advantage. but against most of them, lit II does just as well (except for abbot).

the only reason i would consider making a min II weapon at this point in the game is if i had absolutely nothing to do with a great big pile of greensteel ingredients.

[DrNuegebauer]

meh.

too many people talk and post recommendations as if the only thing that exists in the game is pit fiends.

not the case.

If it was.. Sure, dont worry about the min2.

But its not. Not nearly.

Mineral2 are defenitely still an awesome all around weapon. Even if you already have a crafted hSlob wep crafted.

Because no matter how many times these crazies try to tell you the only thing we fight in this game is pitfiends - they are wrong.

A Hslob is good for:
pit fiends

A mineral 2 is good for:
pit fiends (a Hslob has a very minor dps advantage)
constructs
mariliths
flesh renders
all other demons..
constructs - any with adamantine dr, which is nearly all of them
mind flayers
tharaak hounds
elementals, undead or any 100% fort target not resistant to acid as a min2 has very solid base dmg + lots of acid damage.
.. think you get the point.

Mineral2: Best all-around until you can get a ESoS.

HSlob: Like it sounds.... Serves one purpose.. slobbering pitfiends.

Now you could go and craft a dozen different greater banes in various metal types.. But thats really not that easy nor cheap. Was be far more cost effective to just get the min2 and be done with it in 1 go.

Lit2 is nice too, but covers far fewer monster types as theres no dr breaking and quite a few differnet monster types have lightning resistance/immunity.
And for what its best for- trash devils.. It gets obsoleted by ESoS.

Mineral 2 never quite becomes 100% obsolete. I mean I have a rather insane assortment of weapons including almost all of the above (esos, globshober, various GS. And I still pull out my min2 for certain targets, very few yes.. but not quite all...

There's also the TR reason:
Min2 like all shroud weps are ml12.. Min2 at lvl12 is ultra powerful and pretty much is the only weapon you need for several levels as its enough to tear down everything at that lvl. Now sure a lit2 may also be, but min2 is a better all-around.
Not sure what ml the hslob is.. whatever it is, its not a great tr wep as it only covers 1 enemy type you dont encounter much at lvl12ish anyways.

And if they didn't screw up belasherra and make him a weak punk, i could of used ito n him.. Freakin 12 dr on elite and he dies in 5 seconds.. Lord of beholders my *!@#.. Meh.

Hmmmm - I don't think that's all quite true?

Does a Holy Silver of Lawful Outsider Bane ONLY work on pit fiends?

It works on any kind of devil; tieflings; efreet; hellhounds; bezekiera etc etc

And if you also craft a Holy of Chaotic Outsider Bane then you've also got all the demons covered (best bet would be an 'all in one' Holy Silver EOB - slightly higher min level, but no switching for the trash mobs)

So they don't JUST work against Pit fiends...


Second thing is that a Lit II is ALSO min level 12. So that could certainly be used as a TR - oh an it works pretty well against most trash evil outsiders anyway.
If you're worried about golems, just pick up the Maul of Vengeance for a couple of hundred plat off the AH - adamantine bludgeoning weapon!


A minII means you don't have to swap around all that often - but a Lit II would be better in most scenarios against most enemies. Sure, against bosses you're at a disadvantage - but swap out to your (easily) crafted HSEOB and you're good to go!

[DrNuegebauer]

For the Original Question:

Grind out the Shroud mats required to craft a MinII or Lit II (but don't make anything yet).
By the time you've got them all, gather up all the greater essences that you've collected, deconstruct a few runs worth of loot - and you'd have enough essences to get to the required crafting levels for Holy Outsider Bane.

Spend maybe 2 hours levelling your crafter to the point of making your 'DR breakers' and then ask yourself again if you want a MinII or LitII.
My guess would be a LitII at that stage?

[Kinerd]

with a FB getting an extra multiplier on the critical, it probably swings further in favor of cannith crafting actually (the +4 from bane multiplies indefinitely, none of the burst/blast effects go higher than x4 iirc).

FB multiplier increases don't affect burst/blast effects. By fairly astonishing coincidence, both weapons have equal multipliable damage: 3d6 + 5 = 15.5 = 1d12 + 9, so the increased crit multiplier has no relative effect.

Also, Tharaak Hounds have DR/Lawful. They are one of the very few enemy DRs that a Min II will not break. They would also not have their DR broken by a Lailat-focused weapon, but would certainly by a Tharaak Hound-focused weapon, which is eminently craftable. A Mineral II is still "good" against them, but like every other target, it is not the best.

[Gkar]

Crafting? Fine, but I think it takes longer than people think to get decent crafting levels, IMO.

I finally got sick of just deconstructing what I brought in and bought 800Kplat worth of greater essances. It took me from L20 to 45 in maybe 90 minutes.

If you had no other cash and just sold your first 2 devil scales that would be enough to do the job, and once you do it once you can cheaply craft for all your alts. I ALWAYS used to craft MinII first (well, except my rogue), and now I think its pretty much a bad choice.

[DrNuegebauer]

I finally got sick of just deconstructing what I brought in and bought 800Kplat worth of greater essances. It took me from L20 to 45 in maybe 90 minutes.

If you had no other cash and just sold your first 2 devil scales that would be enough to do the job, and once you do it once you can cheaply craft for all your alts. I ALWAYS used to craft MinII first (well, except my rogue), and now I think its pretty much a bad choice.

The unspoken bonus here is that having a crafted weapon means you have a crafter - and you can deck out your alts with +4 beater weapons - at the cost of 0 shrouds.

[sirgog]

meh.

too many people talk and post recommendations as if the only thing that exists in the game is pit fiends.

not the case.

If it was.. Sure, dont worry about the min2.

But its not. Not nearly.

Mineral2 are defenitely still an awesome all around weapon. Even if you already have a crafted hSlob wep crafted.

Because no matter how many times these crazies try to tell you the only thing we fight in this game is pitfiends - they are wrong.

A Hslob is good for:
pit fiends

A mineral 2 is good for:
pit fiends (a Hslob has a very minor dps advantage)
constructs
mariliths
flesh renders
all other demons..
constructs - any with adamantine dr, which is nearly all of them
mind flayers
tharaak hounds
elementals, undead or any 100% fort target not resistant to acid as a min2 has very solid base dmg + lots of acid damage.
.. think you get the point.

Mineral2: Best all-around until you can get a ESoS.

HSlob: Like it sounds.... Serves one purpose.. slobbering pitfiends.

Now you could go and craft a dozen different greater banes in various metal types.. But thats really not that easy nor cheap. Was be far more cost effective to just get the min2 and be done with it in 1 go.

Lit2 is nice too, but covers far fewer monster types as theres no dr breaking and quite a few differnet monster types have lightning resistance/immunity.
And for what its best for- trash devils.. It gets obsoleted by ESoS.

Mineral 2 never quite becomes 100% obsolete. I mean I have a rather insane assortment of weapons including almost all of the above (esos, globshober, various GS. And I still pull out my min2 for certain targets, very few yes.. but not quite all...

There's also the TR reason:
Min2 like all shroud weps are ml12.. Min2 at lvl12 is ultra powerful and pretty much is the only weapon you need for several levels as its enough to tear down everything at that lvl. Now sure a lit2 may also be, but min2 is a better all-around.
Not sure what ml the hslob is.. whatever it is, its not a great tr wep as it only covers 1 enemy type you dont encounter much at lvl12ish anyways.

And if they didn't screw up belasherra and make him a weak punk, i could of used ito n him.. Freakin 12 dr on elite and he dies in 5 seconds.. Lord of beholders my *!@#.. Meh.

Almost all of those targets, a Lit 2 is better than a Min 2.

Elementals? Lit 2 is far better.
Pit Fiends? Lit 2 is better on Normal, especially with all the Air Savants around.
Undead? Lit 2 all the way until you can get the resources to make a triple positive blunt weapon.
Demons? If you can craft a Holy Silver of Bane weapon, you can craft a Holy Cold Iron of Bane which is as good on Demons as a Min 2, but costs less than a Greensteel blank. For most Demons (albeit not Lailat) a Holy Silver of Evil Outsider Bane works fine too.
As for constructs - an Anarchic Adamantine Maul of Construct Bane (not too hard to craft) breaks all of their DRs. A Min 2 Greataxe doesn't get the most important construct DR, 20/Blunt AND Adamantine (Epic Clay Golems), or the second most important (30?/chaotic) on the epic VON3 marut.


On the other hand, unless you are close to having an eSOS or eXuum crafted, a Lit 2 is the best weapon you can get for almost every single boss and trash mob in the game. On anything without DR (which is most things) the Lit 2 is better than a +5 Holy Burst Greater Bane.

Oh and whatever you do, make a Falchion unless you have a very good reason not to.

[voxson5]

min II: 3d6 base + 2d6 holy + 1d6 acid burst +1d4 slicing +5 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 6d6 base + 4d10 acid +10 enhancement on a 19, and an additional 4d6 acid beyond that on a 20.

that's: 5% miss, 85% * 27.5, 5% * 80.5, 5% * 94.5 = 32.125 damage/swing (average)

HB CI of GCOB: 1d12 base + 2d6 holy burst + 3d6 bane + 9 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 2d12 base + 4d6 holy burst + 18 enhancement on a critical hit

that's: 5% miss, 85% * 33, and 10% * 78 = 35.85 damage/swing (average).

so ok, it's pretty close, and slightly in favor of cannith crafting i guess. with a FB getting an extra multiplier on the critical, it probably swings further in favor of cannith crafting actually (the +4 from bane multiplies indefinitely, none of the burst/blast effects go higher than x4 iirc). but at least you do need to get up to that greater bane and holy burst first, so it's a bit more competitive (35 cannith crafting is easy, 65+ is a fair amount more grind involved)

also, looking at shade's list...

constructs (you listed twice): ideally you will have a bludgeoning adamantine weapon. min II (especially greataxe) does not fit that goal. further, clay golems heal from acid damage, it deals less damage in general to some of them, and most won't take the min II holy damage.

mariliths: as was just shown, eventually cannith crafting pulls ahead. in the short term, yeah... i guess min II is a pretty good margin ahead. but again, are you really going to burn 24 larges just so you can be a tiny bit better against the demon queen?

flesh renders: the holy/cold iron/COB weapon is, again, pretty close. the HB/CI/GCOB weapon is superior.

all other demons: same as mariliths and flesh renders. if these were more common, it might be a concern, but we really don't fight many of them at all.

mind flayers: if there were any particularly challenging ones in the game, i'd be worried.

tharaak hounds: have you gone mad? tharaak hounds are immune to acid damage.

elementals, undead, etc: ok, slight advantage. but against most of them, lit II does just as well (except for abbot).

the only reason i would consider making a min II weapon at this point in the game is if i had absolutely nothing to do with a great big pile of greensteel ingredients.

Don't forget that a minII will also potentially save you from taking iCRIT.

You also need to make a proper comparison - GS is ml:12. Go craft a ml:12 weapon & redo your calculations

*edit - Also, personal note, i would always put good burst instead of holy into a minII, damages far more enemies than holy & the extra burst damage is well worth it*

[sirgog]

Don't forget that a minII will also potentially save you from taking iCRIT.

You also need to make a proper comparison - GS is ml:12. Go craft a ml:12 weapon & redo your calculations

Lit 2 with Imp Crit outclasses Min 2 without it. Actually Lit 2 + iCrit (without Power Attack) does as much damage as Min 2 with Power Attack.

Maybe on a pure TWF bard (as feat-starved a build as I can think of) that uses the post-changes Epic Kron'zek's Cruelty as their DPS weapon and Min 2s as their DR breakers, there might be a reason to craft Min 2s.

But who cares about DR before about level 15? Elite Threnal has the highest DRs I can think of at 15/holy and cold iron. If you decide to run that at 12, a Lit 2 is still about as good as a Min 2. The only higher DR that comes to mind is the elite VON3 Marut at 20, but a Min 2 doesn't break that anyway.

And if you really want to do an underlevel Shroud or VoD when you are 14, just make a +3 HS EOB weapon instead of a +4 one. Simple. Still beats a Min 2.



Never waste larges on a Min 2 except in one situation - your AC buffs to the mid-70s or better without it, and you intend to put +4 AC on it.

[voxson5]

Lit 2 with Imp Crit outclasses Min 2 without it. Actually Lit 2 + iCrit (without Power Attack) does as much damage as Min 2 with Power Attack.

Not debating that. Simply talking about crafting vs GS.

[voxson5]

And if you really want to do an underlevel Shroud or VoD when you are 14, just make a +3 HS EOB weapon instead of a +4 one.

greataxe was used in previous examples:

min II: 3d6 base + 2d6 holy + 1d6 acid burst +1d4 slicing +5 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 6d6 base + 4d10 acid +10 enhancement on a 19, and an additional 4d6 acid beyond that on a 20

vs your +3 HS of EOB:

crafted: 1d12 + 2d6 holy + 2d6 vs EO +3 enhancement + 2 vs EO


I respect your views very much Sirgog, but i think you slipped up on this one

*edited to correct bane damage (+2 & +2d6, not just +1d6)*

[Gkar]

Don't forget that a minII will also potentially save you from taking iCRIT.

You also need to make a proper comparison - GS is ml:12. Go craft a ml:12 weapon & redo your calculations

*edit - Also, personal note, i would always put good burst instead of holy into a minII, damages far more enemies than holy & the extra burst damage is well worth it*

Personally I compare it to a +4 holy silver LOB. That's a L15 (I believe) crafted weapon, which means its available at the point you start running into devils. Against devils that's a +6 weapon instead of +5 for GS and picks up 2d6 bane damage to make up for the lower base damage. It's pretty much comparable, and at a much lower cost.

And a min II only saves you iCRIT if you only have 1 weapon in your golf bag. How many melees swing one and only one weapon ever? If that is your playstyle, then yes, Min II wins as a good general beater that saves a feat.

[sirgog]

greataxe was used in previous examples:

min II: 3d6 base + 2d6 holy + 1d6 acid burst +1d4 slicing +5 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 6d6 base + 4d10 acid +10 enhancement on a 19, and an additional 4d6 acid beyond that on a 20

vs your +3 HS of EOB:

crafted: 1d12 + 2d6 holy + 1d6 vs EO +3 enhancement


I respect your views very much Sirgog, but i think you slipped up on this one

Against Pit Fiends, they have 30 or more Acid Resistance. All of them. Still. So drop all that acid.

Against trash devils, use your Lit 2 that you made with all the materials you did not waste on the Min 2.


Oh and it's Bane, so +5 enhancement, and 2d6 more damage.

[Duke-H-]

greataxe was used in previous examples:

min II: 3d6 base + 2d6 holy + 1d6 acid burst +1d4 slicing +5 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 6d6 base + 4d10 acid +10 enhancement on a 19, and an additional 4d6 acid beyond that on a 20

vs your +3 HS of EOB:

crafted: 1d12 + 2d6 holy + 1d6 vs EO +3 enhancement


I respect your views very much Sirgog, but i think you slipped up on this one

Remove all acid damage, its not relevant.
EOB is +2 and 2d6.
Holy can be removed since it's on both weapons.

    MinII | +3HsEOB
enhanc  5 | 5 (3+2 EOB)
base  3d6 | 1d12
bleed 1d4 | 2d6 EOB

Cannith crafting wins out in most of the situations where you'd have wanted a MinII before. Even before you consider the cost. And 24 larges is a lot even compared to the one time effort of leveling Cannith crafting.

[voxson5]

Remove all acid damage, its not relevant.

Because why? VoD/ToD/ eChrono & eDA all have mobs that are not immune to acid damage, all but 2 epics (3 if you count the optional in the deeps) have enemies that will take acid damage, vale quests, the U10 pack, Shavarath quests and the SubT all have enemies that take acid damage.

Because it wont hurt a pit fiend?

If all you care about is being at cap, then yes - an assortment of crafted weapons specific to enemies that you are fighting would work out better. But by the same rational, a eSOS/SOS/eXuum/lit II is much better.

Yes, against anything that isn;t electrically resistant/immune, a lit II is a far superior weapon to a minII