Enough with the insta kills in epics?

[Forzah]

There are some serious concerns with endgame play in my view. I have a barbarian with full epic gear, but can hardly contribute in epic quests because of the instant kills. Casters and assassin rogues kill trash mobs so fast, that I only have a chance of landing two or three hits before the mob goes down. It is kinda depressing that regular melee can only contribute when there are red or orange named mobs. This was less of an issue before the change in epics, and I feel we should (partially) revert back to that system.

Previously it was the case that any class had a contribution during the greater part of a quest. The largest part of epic quests consists of killing trashmobs. Arcanes had the task of controlling the crowd properly. Melees beat down the mobs that posed the biggest threat. Divines focussed on healing (and some dps). Boss fights were mainly a melee thing, where the arcanes focussed on debuffing the boss and the divines on healing. Every class had a thankful task.

With the addition of instant kills in epics I feel that the balance has tipped too much towards arcanes (and to some extent, assassins). Once arcanes get the relevant spell DC's, they can simply kill everything in one or two shots. They get a major part of the fun in clearing the trashmobs, while melee hope to get a shot at killing some mobs. Then there's the assassin rogue, that can kill 2-3 epic trash mobs with the push of a button. Other melee can only contribute well when the mobs can't be insta killed. For divines, I think the changes have led to a bit more fun.

Still, as the majority of all classes consists of melees, I think the game has to partially revert to what it was like before the change. Reintroduce deathblock on all epic mobs, so that mobs can still be energy drained, but no longer instantly killed. The decrease in mob hit-points and increase in saves was an alright choice. The addition of DoT spells for casters, that allowed them to do solid dps on raid bosses, was a good change as well. But the removal of the epic ward has made epic quests way too easy for casters and simply boring for (non-rogue) melee characters.

Do you share this view? If yes, what changes would you propose? If no, why do you think the game is good as is now?

Feel free to discuss.



(Yes, this is a bit late; at first I didn't find it very problematic, but now it's getting to me)

[slimkj]

The fact you can instakill in Epic does seem odd to me. Although immunities and beatdowns are dull in their own way. Being able to one shot whole groups hardly seems epic, does it. As usual though, I'd prefer to see an improvement in the AI to a reintroduction of immunities.

How about a few more divine opponents added that cast Mass DW but not all mobs all the time? Or add some more constructs/undead. Somewhere between the two would be about right, with death spells being neither functionally useless nor stupidly effective.

[Fundamental]

Go try a couple Epic Devil Assault with rogues and casters then re-write your post. lol.

I don't think you'll have any problem's killing mobs in there, or to say it otherwise the monsters will have no problem killing you.

lol

[Alternative]

This would be a valid issue if you were seeing epic LFMs that don't take barbs, or only allow one barb and arcanes/rogues for the rest of the party. This is not the case, so there's no need to rebalance anything. Casters are now more fun to play, while barbs got even more boring, that's your problem. Roll yourself a PM and stop trying to spoil the fun for others.

[Vellrad]

Previously it was the case that any class had a contribution during the greater part of a quest

Arcane contribution was reduced to haste, rage and mass hold.
Thats 3 spells out of, how many we got, 150, 200?

[darkrune]

There are some serious concerns with endgame play in my view. I have a barbarian with full epic gear, but can hardly contribute in epic quests because of the instant kills. Casters and assassin rogues kill trash mobs so fast, that I only have a chance of landing two or three hits before the mob goes down. It is kinda depressing that regular melee can only contribute when there are red or orange named mobs. This was less of an issue before the change in epics, and I feel we should (partially) revert back to that system.

Red/orange named bosses = Melee/spell dps,
trash mobs divine/arcane/rogue instant kills + melee dps while cooldown.
Everyone contributing not just melee's are king.

Previously it was the case that any class had a contribution during the greater part of a quest. The largest part of epic quests consists of killing trashmobs. Arcanes had the task of controlling the crowd properly. Melees beat down the mobs that posed the biggest threat. Divines focussed on healing (and some dps). Boss fights were mainly a melee thing, where the arcanes focussed on debuffing the boss and the divines on healing. Every class had a thankful task.

Everyone had a "thankful task" that lead to only melee's being valued/needed in epics. Casters were deligated to buff bots and CC bots to allow melee to "do their thing" Now at least a well built DPS sorc can get in a epic group as a pug. Clerics were there to "hjeal me nao!!!"

With the addition of instant kills in epics I feel that the balance has tipped too much towards arcanes (and to some extent, assassins). Once arcanes get the relevant spell DC's, they can simply kill everything in one or two shots. They get a major part of the fun in clearing the trashmobs, while melee hope to get a shot at killing some mobs. Then there's the assassin rogue, that can kill 2-3 epic trash mobs with the push of a button. Other melee can only contribute well when the mobs can't be insta killed. For divines, I think the changes have led to a bit more fun.

So by your above admission, more fun for rogues, divines, and arcanes, and only mildly less so for melee. Sounds like a great balancing act as many classes benefit greatly while only a few are slightly hurt.

Still, as the majority of all classes consists of melees, I think the game has to partially revert to what it was like before the change. Reintroduce deathblock on all epic mobs, so that mobs can still be energy drained, but no longer instantly killed. The decrease in mob hit-points and increase in saves was an alright choice. The addition of DoT spells for casters, that allowed them to do solid dps on raid bosses, was a good change as well. But the removal of the epic ward has made epic quests way too easy for casters and simply boring for (non-rogue) melee characters...*snip*

No the change was at least partially balancing where my caster was no longer just a melee's buff bot and CC b___h. This allowed me to play and enjoy my caster in quests where there are trash mobs, and still allows you to be the most productive DPS in boss fights, mini-boss fights and in cases where my cooldown is running.

No thanks for the reversion back and stay the way that it is.

[Forzah]

Go try a couple Epic Devil Assault with rogues and casters then re-write your post. lol.

I don't think you'll have any problem's killing mobs in there, or to say it otherwise the monsters will have no problem killing you.

lol

Well, except maybe for the bossfights, I don't see why they couldn't pull it off. Don't overestimate the difficulty of EDA. It is trivial with good casters.

Arcane contribution was reduced to haste, rage and mass hold.
Thats 3 spells out of, how many we got, 150, 200?
lol

With the current changes in the game, you can more or less reliably cast damage spells as well. I don't think it's that limited anymore as before.



Now don't get me wrong, I don't want to revert everything back. It's merely reintroduction of epic ward. For the rest, compared to before, it is still more fun for casters because damage spells matter. How can you call a quest epic, if you can kill everything with a single shot?

[pHo3nix]

You think that haste/rage/mass hold or healing are thankful tasks cause you are a barbarian..arcanes and divines have fun killing mobs too, being relegated to support your mighty barbarian is not that fun at all..

Is epic in its current implementation perfect? No.
Is it better than before? Sure it is.
So, evolving from here is fine, reverting back to the boredom pre u9 no.

[Forzah]

You think that haste/rage/mass hold or healing are thankful tasks cause you are a barbarian..arcanes and divines have fun killing mobs too, being relegated to support your mighty barbarian is not that fun at all..

Is epic in its current implementation perfect? No.
Is it better than before? Sure it is.
So, evolving from here is fine, reverting back to the boredom pre u9 no.

It is better now, but would be even better without the insta kills; see my above post.

[pHo3nix]

It is better now, but would be even better without the insta kills; see my above post.

And what are pale masters supposed to do without insta-kills? Should we all roll wf enchantment/conjuration archmage? Ofc pale masters can have nice CC too, but why have nice CC when you can have 1 sp hypno/3 sp dance and web?

[sweez]

Be thankful that you're running with good arcanes. When I join a pug, there's hardly any instakilling at all. :\

[Forzah]

And what are pale masters supposed to do without insta-kills? Should we all roll wf enchantment/conjuration archmage? Ofc pale masters can have nice CC too, but why have nice CC when you can have 1 sp hypno/3 sp dance and web?

Necro damage spells. Pale master can be a flavor PrE, just like fire and acid savant, or the non-kensai fighter pre's, or the non-tempest ranger PrE's.

Be thankful that you're running with good arcanes. When I join a pug, there's hardly any instakilling at all. :\

Yea, I'm always running with elite guilds. This may change my view on the game a bit.

[Vellrad]

Necro damage spells. Pale master can be a flavor PrE, just like fire and acid savant, or the non-kensai fighter pre's, or the non-tempest ranger PrE's.

So now you're asking to nerf excelent builds into oblivion?

[Forzah]

So now you're asking to nerf excelent builds into oblivion?

There were pale masters before epic ward was removed, so I guess there will still be after? Pale masters get more hp, high DC and selfhealing, so it's still good.

[pHo3nix]

Necro damage spells. Pale master can be a flavor PrE, just like fire and acid savant, or the non-kensai fighter pre's, or the non-tempest ranger PrE's.

Oh, the great necro damage spells..Acid savant is not a flavor PrE, and fire savant wouldn't be either if end game was a little different and not only devils, stalwart is nice for what it does, AA is not flavor either..

If you are playing with completionist wizards with all useful pastlives and godly gear than they might seem overpowered, but try to play with 1st life casters not fully equipped and you will see they are not wailing everything..

[ayspam]

Pug a bit mate, it s fun, I we also been spoilt by running with top guilds on Thelanis, then I moved to Khyber, and I sometimes pug, it can be very frustrating, but fun at the same time.

My point of view on the OT, that I have vastly more fun now in epics then I did before. Sure back then it was nice to light up a room with blue circles, but it was way too boring.

You say casters have nice dps, which is true, but we still dont have enough sp to last for a whole quest just nuking. Melees on the other hand can keep swinging forever.

It s a difficult task to play a caster efficiently, join some pugs and see for yourself.

[NaturalHazard]

lol maybe make a epic quest or chain with a ton of stuff with super high sr and other stuff that makes it hard to take them down with offensive spellcasting, make the loot super sexy for arcane/divine casters, but make it so that its difficult for them to complete without melee dps or something. So we can have lfms up where divines and arcanes are begging physical damage classes to come? , its more of a sick twisted thought than a serious suggestion.

[Kmnh]

Not having instakills wouldn't change a thing about epic gameplay. Do you really think you are contributing more by hitting immobile trash?

ask for the right thing: Devs, remove the minion debuff, add the epic ward back in, make epic traps hurt again, and restore the spawning rate on OOB.

[Forzah]

Pug a bit mate, it s fun, I we also been spoilt by running with top guilds on Thelanis, then I moved to Khyber, and I sometimes pug, it can be very frustrating, but fun at the same time.

My point of view on the OT, that I have vastly more fun now in epics then I did before. Sure back then it was nice to light up a room with blue circles, but it was way too boring.

You say casters have nice dps, which is true, but we still dont have enough sp to last for a whole quest just nuking. Melees on the other hand can keep swinging forever.

It s a difficult task to play a caster efficiently, join some pugs and see for yourself.

I see that you are having more fun now, and agree that it is indeed difficult to get by merely by doing damage spells (I got a TR sorc too with wiz past life, so have some experience). To me it still seems that insta kills are not the solution to arcanes not having enough reliable damage output. Maybe a further decrease in mob health to make damage spells viable could be good? Or a reduction in the cost of metamagics? Just thinking freely here.

Not having instakills wouldn't change a thing about epic gameplay. Do you really think you are contributing more by hitting immobile trash?

ask for the right thing: Devs, remove the minion debuff, add the epic ward back in, make epic traps hurt again, and restore the spawning rate on OOB.

Heh, that would indeed be fun! Would completely love this.

[sweez]

Yea, I'm always running with elite guilds. This may change my view on the game a bit.

That would explain it. The game cannot and should not be balanced for elite players, it should be balanced for the average paying customer, and trust me, average paying customer doesn't waltz'n'wail through epics.