Enough with the insta kills in epics?

[gwenniez]

the whole op reeks of ...


"Hi i'm a lvl 20 esos barbarian and I don't lead the kill count anymore so
my character is now useless.."

"Plz fix casters so i can throw kill count score in peoples faces to make
my epeen apear to be bigger then everyone else k thx plz.."

[pHo3nix]

No one is asking for a DDO to become a wow clone.
If you think balance doesn't matter, then any changes won't matetr to you anyway, so why do you even care to argue about it?
My guess is that you just want your particular imbalance, but you don't consider the consequences.



You could complete quests with 6 casters before the change. Infact, melees are far worse off now than catsers were before. But it's all fine and dandy according to you.
Why is kill count that important for you?

I don't care about kill count, my only toon able to instakill in epic is my wiz, and he's my worst equipped and less played toon ( 37 necro DC iirc), i just use him to farm scrolls and to run easy epics for tokens: i can assure you he can't wail/fod/cod everything in sight, he needs to prepare things and that's why he's good only for farming

I'm just happy that now casters are able to contribute in different ways: you can still mass hold, but you can nuke and instakill too If you want to feel the POWER of beating on held mobs just hire a Enchantment specced wizard and let him hold mobs for you, so you can still lead the kill count Just don't force everyone to play that type of caster removing the other options

[steelblueskies]

Dev concerns: re: crafting

holy of bane and other melée weaponry?
Require raidloot to make, the melée with it are op!

+2 spell school foci, or 75% damage clickies?
Leave it alone it's just fine.

Yep.

[Viisari]

A lot of people play DDO cause they like DnD with all its imbalances and flaws. If they are going to make a WoW clone then people would just go to play WoW, no more reasons to stay here.

So wait, if something has some sort of balance, it's a WoW-clone? Are you guys trolling or something?

[pHo3nix]

So wait, if something's going to have balance of sorts, it's going to be a WoW-clone? Are you guys trolling or something?

No, just saying that perfect balance shouldn't be the goal of a DnD based game (and perfect balance doesn't exist unless all can do the same things).

[Fenrisulven6]

I don't think anyone expects "prefect" balance.

And I think that logic is flawed. Will I ever achieve "perfect" health? No, but that doesn't mean I don't try to be as healthy as possible.

the whole op reeks of ...

"Hi i'm a lvl 20 esos barbarian and I don't lead the kill count anymore so
my character is now useless.."

"Plz fix casters so i can throw kill count score in peoples faces to make
my epeen apear to be bigger then everyone else k thx plz.."

I think you're projecting. The argument is not about epeens, its about being able to play the game.

Most people prefer not to park at the entrance and watch the sorc solo-complete the quest for them.

[Viisari]

No, just saying that perfect balance shouldn't be the goal of a DnD based game (and perfect balance doesn't exist unless all can do the same things).

I don't think I've ever posted this on any forums before.

[pHo3nix]

I don't think anyone expects "prefect" balance.

And I think that logic is flawed. Will I ever achieve "perfect" health? No, but that doesn't mean I don't try to be as healthy as possible.



I think you're projecting. The argument is not about epeens, its about being able to play the game.

Most people prefer not to park at the entrance and watch the sorc solo-complete the quest for them.

Leaving aside utopistic ideas such as perfect balance, i've not yet seen all these casters soloing things so fast that they can't use someone else to speed things up. And we are talking about multi TR with all possible gear, just look at the average wizard in pug: he's probably not able to kill 5 mobs without dieing or running out of sp.

Melees are not useless, they are no more the king of the game with the other classes serving them (haste, rage, displacement, mass hold, heals).

Sure, even before u9 some casters could solo epic, but what was the price? It took a lot of time and probably a lot of sp potions.

And yes, before u9 casters could solo farm scrolls perching and crit fishing firewall, that was so fun to see mobs cooking helplessly!!

[phum]

No, just saying that perfect balance shouldn't be the goal of a DnD based game (and perfect balance doesn't exist unless all can do the same things).

Yes, you are right perfect balance doesn't exist/shouldn't exist/mustn't exist. However, correcting obvious shortcomings to balance is essential to MMO updating. DDO is firstly an MMO and secondly a DnD game. Unfortunately. Or not^^ But I'd guess these corrections take a large portion of dev time/work and their results depend quite a bit on player feedback. If the devs didn't invest that time, or hadn't invested even more of it when translating DnD rules to DDO, DDO would have been broken a long time ago. If you are saying that balance doesn't matter, you are disrespecting a huge amount of dev work that keeps the game alive. If the devs had that attitude, every patch would ruin the game more and more and the mistakes would not be repaired. (sry if this seems like a rant)
edit. **** I type real slow^^

[Viisari]

And we are talking about multi TR with all possible gear,

False.

just look at the average wizard in pug: he's probably not able to kill 5 mobs without dieing or running out of sp.

They're called noobs and every class has them. They have no business in epics with performance like that.

[pHo3nix]

Yes, you are right perfect balance doesn't exist/shouldn't exist/mustn't exist. However, correcting obvious shortcomings to balance is essential to MMO updating. DDO is firstly an MMO and secondly a DnD game. Unfortunately. Or not^^ But I'd guess these corrections take a large portion of dev time/work and their results depend quite a bit on player feedback. If the devs didn't invest that time, or hadn't invested even more of it when translating DnD rules to DDO, DDO would have been broken a long time ago. If you are saying that balance doesn't matter, you are disrespecting a huge amount of dev work that keeps the game alive. If the devs had that attitude, every patch would ruin the game more and more and the mistakes would not be repaired. (sry if this seems like a rant)
edit. **** I type real slow^^

Yes, corrections are needed, i've always said that epic are not perfect now, but surely they are better than before, so i'm just saying no to those asking to go back to pre u9

From how some people are talking seems like all casters are running around with 44 necro DC and enough sp to solo every epics/raid in game, but this is not the case...

[Aaxeyu]

I think you're projecting.

You think?

He, and others, are happy to finally be able to get a nice kill score. Everything else than killing mobs is apparently boring and should be left to the melees (just look how they cry about how boring mass hold is while at the same time try to make melees CC).

Atleast this thread confirms that some people are obsessed about kill counts. I hope I never meet any of them ingame

[pHo3nix]

You think?

He, and others, are happy to finally be able to get a nice kill score. Everything else than killing mobs is apparently boring and should be left to the melees (just look how they cry about how boring mass hold is while at the same time try to make melees CC).

Atleast this thread confirms that some people are obsessed about kill counts. I hope I never meet any of them ingame

If you read one of my posts above you'll notice i said that i'm not leading killcount in any epic with my wiz, and i don't care i just appreciate variety

[Fomori]

I dont see why there are issues concerning classes when this is a PvE game. Changes to one class do not effect the performance of another players class so there should not be any issue. Its not like they are sudden incapable of progressing their character, which might be the case if it were PvP.

What this seems to be about is the max power level capability of certain classes. When you change that status quo then it throws the min-max community into an uproar. Its not so bad if one class gets closer in power to another class but when you jump several classes it becomes a concern. Most people do not like having their uber-geared toons role changed. That is what it seems like here.

Casual players dont seem to have an issue with the new epics, as it lets them complete them faster since they do not need to wait for the "perfect" part makeup. In this case casual does not mean newb, it means players that don't make it a priority to grind for the best gear. There are plenty of casual min-maxers, they just build up as they have time... but are always taking the route of best performance increase.

With that being said, I do think that there is an issue with the current difficulty level of the quests in DDO. Personally I think that EXPECTING 100% success is a design flaw and people should fail now and then. On the other hand excessive failure is not conducive to players wanting to play the content.

This is why I think the changes are a good thing. It didn't change the failure rate a bit for players that expected 100% success, as they were nearly 0% anyways. What it did was lower the failure rate for a larger number of non twinked classed toons to a place they feel more comfortable doing the content. The only issue would we if these changes brought that number to 0% as well.

This is always going to be an issue if we have static difficulty levels as There will be people that are under/over powered who will complain. What could be done is to have more variable levels that you dial in when you enter the quest. The challenge and rewards would be based on the level you select when you enter. Another solution is to analyze the gear/makeup of characters when they enter a quest and assign increases/decreases to difficulty based on what is there. It would look for class combos and named items to determine the final boost/reduction of difficulty. A variant would be to keep the current settings C/N/H/E/Epic and have that disabled through Hard, active on elite, and doubled on epic. Then the better the stuff you brought to the fight the greater the challenge.

[Lurzifer]

Okay after reading about 60% of this Thread, and getting annoyed by how people are basically just calling others wrong, ill try to summarize some suggestions i read, and might bring up some of myself.

First things first, yes im on board that the current Necro Spell mehcnaism is too strong, but its needed. We dont want that many good spells being useless on Cap, and lets be honest most of us doing epics daily or at least often like to play at lvl cap.

So suggestions i read so far:
- have been adressed to more variety of monsters,
- higher SR on some Monsters (not-drow),
- casters that cast Massdeathward, which would have to be dispelled first

Well that are of course some measures. We dont want that we can wail or fod an entire dungeon, the mix is interesting. Means we can Fod easy targets & casters maybe, have to CC srong melee mobs and nuke Boss mobs.

While we have to look on the possibilities for casters, we have to look at the melees as well.
Current settings only allow beat em up. CC on a melee is limited to 2-3 simgle Target feats, and maybe two Weapons (Sirroco and Whirlwind).

Enabling Vorpal in epics without hitpoint treshold is the Wrong way, current setting is fine as is.

What might be interesting is, getting new combat feats along the new nice spells we have for our casters.
Improve Slicing Blow.
Add new area Stunning Blow without Helpless.

Get Meleeclass-based Combat feats on aquiring either capstone or Tier 3 Pre:
- Barbarian - as stated before, maybe a Battleroar, decreasing saves, tohit and dmg of enemies in 10 feet range by 2 for 20 secs. 30secs CD

- Paladin - Searing light "SLA" BLinding Mobs in 10 feet around Paladin for 15 secs no save, adding 25d6 light dmg half on successful reflex, DC Pal lvl + Cha mod + 10. CD 60 secs.

- Fighter - Commander: As experienced Fighter you can give Orders, that can turn the battle: All surrounding friendly Targets gain +1 Spell DC, + 2d10 Temp HP +5 AC +2 all Skills +2 Comabt feat DCs as Order bonus for 20 secs. CD 60 secs.

- Ranger - As an expierenced Scout and with your knowledge of the specific enemies, you can advice your surrounding Fellows with tips, increasing their saves, tohit and damage against your favored enemies by +3.

- Rogue - bloody assassine dont get more. Period. :P just a joke cant think of anything atm.

- Bard - Not the real kind of DC-casters, so we need something here as well. A start would be Tier 3 Pre, along with a Capstone worth taking for a Group character.


Maybe we all should start bringing suggestions to the table, how we can make the game more appealing for all classes, and especially to play with a mix of all classes, instead of making the groups out of the current OP classes.

Giving every class some sort of group/raid utility with exceptional buffs, auras or some kind of Lightmonk buffs for example, would be the first step in my opinion.

Haek

[Fenrisulven6]

I dont see why there are issues concerning classes when this is a PvE game. Changes to one class do not effect the performance of another players class

Except that this is a *team* game.

As an example: pugging Delera's on normal, my 8th lvl rogue can dual wield race restricted rapiers of improved cursespewing and disruption. If I sneeze in a critter's direction, it dies. But I've only used them in one run, because it was obvious I was ruining the quest for the other 5 players. Must have been boring as hell to watch me solo the quest for them. So I don't do that anymore.

Its the same problem with all the power creep we've seen lately. Sorcs are a big part of that.

So, unfortunately, I've banned them from my groups. They turn too many quests into a joke.

[steelblueskies]

as i said earlier. changes to saves and sr net you nothing. changes to cooldowns net you nothing.

how do you marginalize instant death, especially when parties of instant death wielders may exist?
leverage the need to dps.

instant death from spells in epics. take the hp threshold for vorpal weapons and flip it. you attempt to instant kill. if the mob was above 1000hp and saves it drops below and becomes immune to instant death from spells. if the mob was below 1000hp, it was immune to instant death from spells. if the mob was above 1000hp and fails its save it dies.

wail a pack, and then either have someone to dps the stragglers, or risk blowing too much sp by both instakilling and dpsing. even with extensive sp pools you can only burn that candle for so long if you do it from both ends.

this also prevents the biggest griefing move commonly seen. player merily beating hell out of a mob, or just starting in on it, only to have it poof to a spell. while damage spells can instantly kill some mobs through health reduction, in epics this is significantly rarer, if not impossible from a single cast.

this also serves to ensure a focus on best dc possible for necro spells if thats your path, as you cannot expect the next arcane to use their cooldown to clean up stragglers. the first failure to instantly kill a mob with instadeath will drop it below the threshold and render it immune to such spells in almost all cases.
in theory one could drop damage enhancements from gear and enhancements to minimize instant death save damage and try to eek out a second shot, but then your utility versus orange and red named bosses requires a gear and or enhancement reset(read you suddenly suck vs these), and if you fail twice dpsing it down solo is going to be rough.

nothing you do of course will redress simple damage output from multiple spellcasters, but specific to instant death this would serve as an artificial change, and work for both arcane and divine casters using such spells without penalizing one subset unduly hard(sorcs, clerics).

to recap. for instant death spells only, in epics, instant death only applies above the melee vorpal hp threshhold. dc's still apply. saves unchanged. sr unchanged. damage on save unchanged.

and while i'm at it someone get them to eyeball the cc stuff. way to variable for reliability. no plausible reason a 44 enchant dc hold should land, blue glow, then break before a global hotbar cooldown can finish, or the blue animation even finish completely. ever.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

the whole op reeks of ...


"Hi i'm a lvl 20 esos barbarian and I don't lead the kill count anymore so
my character is now useless.."

"Plz fix casters so i can throw kill count score in peoples faces to make
my epeen apear to be bigger then everyone else k thx plz.."

I said "HOLD my cape, not put it ON!"

[Fomori]

this also prevents the biggest griefing move commonly seen. player merily beating hell out of a mob, or just starting in on it, only to have it poof to a spell.

Personally I dont see this as griefing, as someone else killing a mob POSITIVELY effects group performance. The only way it would be considered griefing is if the individual kill count actually meant something to a character, but it does not.

However this does bring up an interesting point in where the casters could have been killing another mob while you were killing that one. It seems that either they were inefficient (killing the same target) or you were (taking much too long to kill a mob).

I notice that all the time in PUGS, the melees are killing a mob and the caster insta-kills that one with a single target spell, even though there are 3 or 4 other mobs around as targets.

[tharveysinjin]

lol maybe make a epic quest or chain with a ton of stuff with super high sr and other stuff that makes it hard to take them down with offensive spellcasting, make the loot super sexy for arcane/divine casters, but make it so that its difficult for them to complete without melee dps or something. So we can have lfms up where divines and arcanes are begging physical damage classes to come? , its more of a sick twisted thought than a serious suggestion.

They have those quests now. . .they are called Shavrath quests.