The Most Expensive Pair of Madstone Boots I've Ever Seen

[xveganrox]

Thanks for all your varied opinions (: it's been quite interesting to read through all the voicing of opinions this incident has spawned. People seem to fit into one of two categories: the free market, mercenary, what-you-pull-is-yours-to-sell-or-do-as-you-please-with, or the keep-it-or-put-it-up-for-roll camp. On reflection I can see some merit in the former philosophy: if someone pulls something they don't need, they can still make a profit off of it and both they and the purchaser will be happy with the end results. Personally, though, I still remain firmly in the non-selling camp - probably most of all because from a low-level on people encouraged me to roll on items I needed that they pulled, and the friendly atmosphere that that inspires is part of what keeps me a part of DDO in the first place.


It's funny, though.. As loathe as I am to compare DDO to real world politics, I can't help but draw parallels between schools of American political thought and personal policies on playing the game and dealing with loot. But I digress, that's the last thing I'd want to pull into this discussion.. Just an interesting sidenote.


To the person who suggested they would have reported me for harassment - I can't help but think you're misreading the sutuation. I wasn't trying to ostracize anyone, I was simply offering ano incentive for others to use my looting system in a way similar to the way the seller was incentivizing his looting system. I'm quite certain there were no hard feelings - I /telled the seller afterwards and congratulated him on his boots, and then told him I certainly don't have anything against him personally. Then he tried to buy my SoS scroll (not for sale.. Someday, eSoS, you will be mine). I like to think it was all taken in good humor, and while I look down on the behavior of that particular player as against the spirit of the game, I don't think I did anything harassing or abusive.


That said, do keep the opinions coming.. It's entertaining to see which side people fall on regarding this issue! Especually the people whose character names I recognize (:


By the way - sorry if my spelling or formatting are less than spectacular.. I'm writing this on a Blackberry in the back of a moving car (:

[HelvanderSeries6]

Sorry for the short sentence:

W.T.F.!

could not have said it better myself.

[Shade]

Sounds like cannith is a pretty poor server to play on if this is true.

On khyber we have a much kinder (and more logical) loot policy in pugs:
Your loot is your loot. You can do whatever you like with it.

It is/was/always will be, whoevers pulls the loots explicit right to do whatever they like with it. You trying to tell them to do otherwise is whats wrong.

If you personally don't want to sell or buy loot - thats your problem, and it's fine for you to handle your loot that way. But it's not fair for you to try to force your beliefs on anyone else.

Personally I've sold/puchased countless pieces of raid loot (I'd say 90% of what I used I paid for in some form). Out of those hundreds of raids i've done so, only once - also in a reaver did anyone complain. I sold my loot anyways (a +3 tome for a grand total for 50kpp) and squelched everyone who complained and never thought twice about them.

Khybers different I guess. We don't tell people how to handle their own loot.

[stille_nacht]

lol, since when is 1 lds a "small fortune" xD

[bjlinden]

Thanks for all your varied opinions (: it's been quite interesting to read through all the voicing of opinions this incident has spawned. People seem to fit into one of two categories: the free market, mercenary, what-you-pull-is-yours-to-sell-or-do-as-you-please-with, or the keep-it-or-put-it-up-for-roll camp.

It's worth pointing out that I think I, and the majority of the "what-you-pull-is-yours-to-sell-or-do-as-you-please-with" camp would probably agree that "keep-it-or-put-it-up-for-roll" is the RIGHT thing to do in the situation. What we DON'T agree with is the idea that we somehow have some right to FORCE people to do what we, personally, feel is right.

Also, I think you may be the only person I've ever seen who puts the mouth first on their smileys! Neat! (:

lol, since when is 1 lds a "small fortune" xD

It is a small fortune... A VERY small fortune!

[Aaxeyu]

It's worth pointing out that I think I, and the majority of the "what-you-pull-is-yours-to-sell-or-do-as-you-please-with" camp would probably agree that "keep-it-or-put-it-up-for-roll" is the RIGHT thing to do in the situation.

Most of them are in the "fake your loot is your loot" camp. Also known as "your loot is your loot, but if you don't do as I want I will blacklist you" camp.
Atleast that's what I can gather from reading the forums.

[Yalina]

interesting thread

I did many raids, someone wrote that selling is bad but trading is not, well if u sell the loot u get plat, if u trade it u get large ingr. or similar, so basically both are the same, u give away your loot for something... I dont know whats the difference to sell madstone boots for a FRDS or accept a trade proposal with the same FRDS from someone... As I wrote, I was in many raids, when friends in group was after some named loots, and several times those were just traded away, and I know they could OVERBID the price if they know, its for trade, so selling and trading is the same business for me, and tbh I dont like either. The guy who made trades for Chrono seals definitely wont be welcomed any of my Chrono runs, besides that I dont understand whats the wrong with Chrono, its not the hardest epic imo.

I think one of the main reason people do raids with friends/guilds only 'cause they know what to expect from them, and they avoid loot drama also. Sometimes I join to other guilds' runs where I know, the only way I get named loot if it drops on my name, but usually I only need completions there. Other friendly guilds know me as much as I know them, and they know if one of their members only needs a seal to complete a set, and it drops on me, I will pass it to that guy - and i wont need any compensation - those for the greedy people only.

[Yaga_Nub]

This is a thread I can get behind!

Moar drama plz!

[Aaxeyu]

I still don't understand what's bad, unfriendly, evil, greedy, selfish, etc etc with offering to pay for loot instead of making them give it away for nothing.
It seems like that thought is only based on the greed and selfishness of those who are not buying.

[khaeras]

The person who pulls the loot makes the rules. Why should a person who pulls loot, give it away for free, because someone else tell them to. This makes no sense. (Yes, I am using the chewbacca defense) Just because that player can or cannot use an item, or someone else wants/can use the item, who says they can't sell it. It just makes no sense!

Seriously though, a level 18 rogue pulls madstone boots, and a near cap level 19 hate tank needs them for his gear enabling him to tank epic raids easier. It only makes sense to trade something valuable for this item to gain it. The goodiegoodiewarmfuzzyfeelingteddybear people of the world unite and run your own stinking raid, and roll and give away whatever you want for free (warm fuzzyfeelings or whatever gets your jollies off) while the rest of us divide and conquer ebberon.

P.S. Carella no hard feelings about upping the ante, but next time be prepared to put your money where your mouth is, otherwise just stay out of it.

P.S.S I will be doing my ingame trades primarily in tells from now on.

[AtomicMew]

What Dragon said. While I can understand the motivation of selling some cool thing you pulled, or trying to buy that cool thing that you've been trying to pull forever, in the end I also think it makes for a better community to not do so. Trading items in the chest: ok. Giving items to a friend/guildie who's also in the quest: ok. Putting it up for roll: ok. Even pulling your loot and vendoring it: ok. Selling bound raid/quest loot out of the chest: not ok. Proxy-rolling for someone else: not ok.

That's how I roll and run my raids, and honestly not only would I lose respect for the buyer and seller I'd probably bar them from anything I run in the future.

Well then you'd probably blacklist half of khyber. It's common practice over here, and afaik, no one has problems with it. Heck, people even put up LFMs saying "paying 1 FRDS for torc" etc.

I think it's interesting how different servers have such different norms.

[Xunethydril]

So to sum up, everyone has a 1 in 12 chance to pull something and the op thinks his/her chances should be better than that because all loot should be up for roll.. So the puller doesnt have any rights to the item except loot it or put it up for roll.. Well by that vein perhaps u should put ur own loot (especially if u want it) up for roll since everyone else deserves a shot at rolling for it.. IMO, ur loot, do what u want with it.. If you really want to decide where the loot goes, do full guild raids and not pugs.. Oh and u better crash the AH cause its highest bidder there too..

oh an btw.. nice workout video Yalina

[xveganrox]

P.S. Carella no hard feelings about upping the ante, but next time be prepared to put your money where your mouth is, otherwise just stay out of it.

No hard feelings at all... But my money was where my mouth was, thanks I made my offer and you made your counter-offer through /tells, and I assume that rogue made off pretty well with whatever you ended up giving him.

Personally I've sold/puchased countless pieces of raid loot (I'd say 90% of what I used I paid for in some form). Out of those hundreds of raids i've done so, only once - also in a reaver did anyone complain. I sold my loot anyways (a +3 tome for a grand total for 50kpp) and squelched everyone who complained and never thought twice about them.

Khybers different I guess. We don't tell people how to handle their own loot.

That's interesting. I've never played on another server, so I don't know how the social dynamics work there, comparatively. It makes me curious enough that I just might roll up a lowly 28 point build on Khyber sometime soon In contrast, though, while I am still rather new to the game relative many players, I've run dozens of raids (and epic quests) on Cannith and never seen bound-to-character or account gear sold.

So to sum up, everyone has a 1 in 12 chance to pull something and the op thinks his/her chances should be better than that because all loot should be up for roll.. So the puller doesnt have any rights to the item except loot it or put it up for roll.. Well by that vein perhaps u should put ur own loot (especially if u want it) up for roll since everyone else deserves a shot at rolling for it.. IMO, ur loot, do what u want with it.. If you really want to decide where the loot goes, do full guild raids and not pugs.. Oh and u better crash the AH cause its highest bidder there too..

Hmm.. I wasn't talking about *my* chances at getting anything at all in this specific case, as the gear in question was something I had no need for. Since you bring it up, though, someone did pull the specific loot I was after (Ventilated Bracers), but they wanted them as well, and looted them, as was of course their right - I certainly *didn't,* in any "vein," suggest that they should put up for roll something that they wanted to use.

I still don't understand what's bad, unfriendly, evil, greedy, selfish, etc etc with offering to pay for loot instead of making them give it away for nothing.
It seems like that thought is only based on the greed and selfishness of those who are not buying.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone was bad or evil. I guess that inherently, my only issue with it is that as I was leveling and running raids early on, when people pulled something they didn't need they put it up for roll, which worked out really well for me on several occasions, which makes me want to continue the practice. 99% of the PUG raids I've been in have been "need before greed," so I guess it's just what I'm used to.

Moar drama plz!

Of course! I'm chaotic neutral: we thrive on drama and dissent (:

Whats even better (sarcasm) is when people exclude others from the quest on the basis that they (the leader) wishes to be the only person to get to roll on an item, instablacklist when I see that happening.

slightly off topic but: Is it just me? or have others noticed that cannith is getting alot more loot drama? and exclusions from quests based on needing loot.
It seems like everyday I see this at least once.

I recall a conversation we had just the other day - and then, as now, I have to disagree with you. While I feel like there are plenty of rules of conduct and just general niceness that people ought to follow, I also think that there is nothing wrong with someone putting up an LFM asking for something specific, no matter what they're asking for. If, for example, a pure caster running The Weapons Shipment on Elite includes only melee classes in their LFM, they shouldn't need to come up with a reason for declining other casters. But then again, maybe that's just me - I just can't help but think that when you're building a party, you should have the final say in what classes you want in it. But I'm glad we agree on the other stuff!

On the other hand, that's heavily theoretical, because as anyone who has grouped with me could tell you I let just about anyone and everyone in

Thanks for all the great responses, everyone! I'm going to call it a night, but I'll definitely be checking for new opinions/rebuttals/angry rants tomorrow! :P

[CaptainPurge]

Imagine a society where everyone sold whatever raid loot they pulled from a chest. The barbarian pulls a torc and puts it up to highest bidder instead of roll. The richest players will become the most powerful, and the norm would be a barb running Weps Shipment to hope to pull a bauble and sell it out of the chest. New ("poor") players will rarely have a chance at raid gear except for when it drops for them specifically. Is that a society we want to live in? The rich say yeah (i.e., Koch brothers as a modern day example) while the poor suffer and the middle class creeps into debt and can't improve.

[mournbladereigns]

Hmm, someone offering to buy raid loot is less annoying to me than someone automatically passing loot to their guildies/friends in a pug.

Your loot is your loot.
"Don't hate the game. Hate the player."

[mournbladereigns]

I New ("poor") players will rarely have a chance at raid gear except for when it drops for them specifically. Is that a society we want to live in?

Fail, unless your running only with guildies/friends. This is already the way it is. People put stuff up for roll or not at their own choosing. Is it the cool thing to do, yes. Loot drama is ever present.

[CaptainPurge]

Fail, unless your running only with guildies/friends. This is already the way it is. People put stuff up for roll or not at their own choosing. Is it the cool thing to do, yes. Loot drama is ever present.

Huh? you edited what I said. There is no "I" in that sentence that I said. Stop failing and start with facts.

[Xunethydril]

To: Xveganrox..

My point being is that if you get to say what someone should or should not do with the loot they get then someone will get to say what you do with yours.. Better not to go down that road, no?

At Captain..

I hate to break it to you but the richest generally are the most powerful.. they have the means to buy most of the items they want from th AH, trade ect.. whereas the 'poor' characters have to adventure to get theirs.. Funny how a game mirrors real life in the aspect of 'the rich get richer'. And again any pug has an equal chance at pulling something thats is theirs to with as they want, same as the uber players.. Why is it that it seems like people think they deserve more than their 1/12 chance like the rest of us.. U want a better chance? Join a friendly guild or go with friends... Oh and sorry to ramble but unless a new players blow their plat on the AH they wont ever be broke..

[Yalina]

Hmm, someone offering to buy raid loot is less annoying to me than someone automatically passing loot to their guildies/friends in a pug.

I dont understand... If I do a raid only to help a friend/guildie to get a specific item, and it drops on me, why is bad to pass it to him? I usually dont do that, I remember in a VoD not long time ago Tharnes G. dropped on me, and a little conversation in team speak we decided with my guildie that goggles should put on roll, and he lost that roll... But he got that goggles in his next VoD.

And yes, if someone got tell with offer for his loot, he SHOULD tell the group that fact!!

[Buggss]

....I hate to break it to you but the richest generally are the most powerful.. they have the means to buy most of the items they want from th AH, trade ect.. whereas the 'poor' characters have to adventure to get theirs.. Funny how a game mirrors real life in the aspect of 'the rich get richer'...

I don't find that funny or surprising in the least, I've seen chat ingame a few times where people have stated they trade and take advantage of others here because things just don't work out in RL. Here everything's faceless, especially when the AH selling and buying is anonymous. I'd bet if the seller's name was attached, none of the selling of 1 durability items and fake bloodstones would've appeared.

Ill-gotten games to say the least.