The Most Expensive Pair of Madstone Boots I've Ever Seen

[AtomicMew]

I personally have no problem with people offering money for raid loot. Let's be real for a second: raid loot is worth currency. By not selling it (if available) and putting it up for roll, the person who pulled the boots come out at a loss. And it's draconian for others to impose their opinion on what YOU do with your loot.

Your loot is your loot.

That said, I also believe that it is the raid leaders prerogative to set whatever rules for the raid that he wants. If you don't like those rules, just leave... or get blacklisted, if you don't care.

Past that point, IMO, you were in the wrong. It was fine up until the point where your raid leader told him that it was against his rules. After that had been said, you were doing nothing but just egging him on and being unnecessarily antagonistic. If I were there, and your account is accurate, I probably would have reported you for harassment, because that's exactly what you were doing.

[DRAGONSUPERDRAGON]

Well there's really nothing inherently wrong in buying/selling raid loot, it's just not the social norm, so it's gets you an unfair advantage over everyone who doesn't. If you get rich off selling stuff that most people put up for roll for free if they don't intend to use it, or buy your way to loots over people who are part of a sharing community you are being a bit of a jerk, especially if you roll on free stuff that people more generous than you put up for roll.

If everyone was doing it it wouldn't really be a problem, the market would sort itself out like shroud ingreds/scrolls etc., would prolly take a while to get raid looting done, and new/poor players might be at a disadvantage, at least until they pull a rare unneeded item. I do find myself wishing that it was different sometimes, for instance when I pull another marilith chain shard and I know everyone in the group is expecting to get it for free, while getting hold of a scroll of the same item would wipe me out financially, seems a little unfair. ;-; But as long as everyone sticks to it I don't mind, I'll win the roll on something nice soon enough. There are grayer areas too, like tomes/power shards etc that any character can use... It's all just a little too complicated for me to be all loot police over it.

Anyway OP, interesting way of handling it, you showed that guy that he would probably have gotten screwed if there was a fair market and not just him sneaking himself to an advantage that nobody else was low enough to go for, he probably ended up paying less than the SOS scroll for the boots but he knows he would have lost. Showing them how hopelessly outbid they would have been is the only way some people understand it. A bit confrontational though. Personally I wouldn't have bothered, worrying about other peoples loot is a quick way to get frustrated in this game, although I do feel less inclined to give people free stuff if they show tendencies to buy /sell anything they can get their hands on. As with any loot issue in this game the only stuff you have control over is your own, so distribute it how you think is fair and hope people will follow. And worry less about what other people do, everyone makes mistakes.

[nicnivyn]

What Dragon said. While I can understand the motivation of selling some cool thing you pulled, or trying to buy that cool thing that you've been trying to pull forever, in the end I also think it makes for a better community to not do so. Trading items in the chest: ok. Giving items to a friend/guildie who's also in the quest: ok. Putting it up for roll: ok. Even pulling your loot and vendoring it: ok. Selling bound raid/quest loot out of the chest: not ok. Proxy-rolling for someone else: not ok.

That's how I roll and run my raids, and honestly not only would I lose respect for the buyer and seller I'd probably bar them from anything I run in the future.

[Zerkul]

That's pretty vague Zerkul, and very subjective. So what exactly is your rule then? Are you saying that a person who pulls the loot doesn't have the right to 1) keep it 2) trade it or sell it 3) put it up for roll?

BTW, I'm not sure your attack on me is warranted, I've been in a lot of raids where people decide to trade their stuff. As for me personally, I've put a ton of stuff up for roll, even stuff I could have used but didn't fit everyone's 'perceptions' of a caster. Gods & Heroes will attest to that, ran plenty of raids where I pulled stuff and gave it to them when I was PUGing raids with them. However, I recognize everyone has the right to do with their loot what they want, and I tend to not get all worked up over their decisions. We had a couple of guildies leave and join Obsidian Dragons after decided to do 'what they wanted' with loot they pulled. At the end of the day they pulled it and did what they wanted with it.

First of all as you say 1) the loot is yours. 2) Trade or sell it? No and no: everyone in the raid/quest partecipated and if you managed to get that loot it's also because you were part of a party, you didn't do it all yourself. 3) If you Respect people who played with you then you must, if you don't keep it for you, give the possibilty to other people to get what you don't want. Else you are just considering people as a tool to get what you need nothing else: the game is relationship based, you do not entertain relations with NPC but with real people.

That's what means to be a good player for me and i think many people i met along my game journey would say the same.

[Zerkul]

What Dragon said. While I can understand the motivation of selling some cool thing you pulled, or trying to buy that cool thing that you've been trying to pull forever, in the end I also think it makes for a better community to not do so. Trading items in the chest: ok. Giving items to a friend/guildie who's also in the quest: ok. Putting it up for roll: ok. Even pulling your loot and vendoring it: ok. Selling bound raid/quest loot out of the chest: not ok. Proxy-rolling for someone else: not ok.

That's how I roll and run my raids, and honestly not only would I lose respect for the buyer and seller I'd probably bar them from anything I run in the future.

Everyone is missing the focal point here. As i said to Mystera, when you complete a quest (unless you were soloing or people piked) you don't complete it alone! As part of a party other people contributed and they have the same right as you to loot something. If someone don't need something for himself, he have to put it up for roll: people are not tool to get what you want. Trading inchest, straight ninjaing any other kind of selling are unfair cause passes over the RESPECT to the people who played with you.

It might be hard point of view but think about it, you will eventually agree with me. I bet on it.

[Darknark]

First of all as you say 1) the loot is yours. 2) Trade or sell it? No and no: everyone in the raid/quest partecipated and if you managed to get that loot it's also because you were part of a party, you didn't do it all yourself. 3) If you Respect people who played with you then you must, if you don't keep it for you, give the possibilty to other people to get what you don't want. Else you are just considering people as a tool to get what you need nothing else: the game is relationship based, you do not entertain relations with NPC but with real people.

That's what means to be a good player for me and i think many people i met along my game journey would say the same.

Very well put, and I agree that 'your loot' isn't necessarily your loot. It is in the sense that 'you got it' and that seems to be the general idea when in a 'less than friendly group', but if the group is nice and you don't need it, why not toss it up for roll? Its quite likely that at some point you needed the help of someone else to even get to the chest.

EDIT: However, Guildies and friends (need over want) first, then puggers. Essentially 'your loot is your loot' but if you don't need it, put it up for roll or give/sell it to someone who does.
EDIT: My opinion on this matter has changed greatly, I still believe that Ryu makes a compelling argument and respect his decision but I personally couldn't care less about other peoples loot, its theirs, they can sell/trade/loot/leave/destroy it. Everyone who participated got a chance of loot from the chest, therefor there is no reason why it (the loot dropped in the name of others) is owed to them.

Whats even better (sarcasm) is when people exclude others from the quest on the basis that they (the leader) wishes to be the only person to get to roll on an item

slightly off topic but: Is it just me? or have others noticed that cannith is getting alot more loot drama? and exclusions from quests based on needing loot.
It seems like everyday I see this at least once. Change of opinion here too, while I personally won't exclude based on need of loot, I fully accept it as legitimate.

[Aaxeyu]

Everyone is missing the focal point here. As i said to Mystera, when you complete a quest (unless you were soloing or people piked) you don't complete it alone! As part of a party other people contributed and they have the same right as you to loot something. If someone don't need something for himself, he have to put it up for roll: people are not tool to get what you want. Trading inchest, straight ninjaing any other kind of selling are unfair cause passes over the RESPECT to the people who played with you.

It might be hard point of view but think about it, you will eventually agree with me. I bet on it.

Everyone has the exact same chance to get loot when they click the chest.
Forcing people to put things they don't need up for roll is just rude, unless it was agreed upon in advance.

[Musouka]

Whats even better (sarcasm) is when people exclude others from the quest on the basis that they (the leader) wishes to be the only person to get to roll on an item, instablacklist when I see that happening.

I remember an Arcane with an LFM up for ADQ. His requirements in the LFM were: Link your torq, or don't apply. Apparently this person wanted a Torq for his own, and wouldn't accept any caster class to join unless they already had one. I wish I had a torq at that time, then I would've joined and if I pulled it, I would've looted it.

[DragonTroy]

its bad trying to buy loot, yeah. but, i do understand why someone would do it. 2 of my guildes are going on their 60th runs for items (a torc, and madstones) and to be honest, if i was in their shoes, i would at least think about trying to buying them. is it crappy, yeah. when you have invested that much time into getting that item though,, i cant say i really blame them

[Darknark]

I remember an Arcane with an LFM up for ADQ. His requirements in the LFM were: Link your torq, or don't apply. Apparently this person wanted a Torq for his own, and wouldn't accept any caster class to join unless they already had one. I wish I had a torq at that time, then I would've joined and if I pulled it, I would've looted it.

Recently I added 4 people in a day to blacklist... bauble farming... and I have a bauble. Woulda passed it to them, but i'm far from a fan of the 'you have a blue bar, gtfo' approach.

/r *link bauble*
/squelch



Back to the topic at hand.....hopefully

[Darknark]

its bad trying to buy loot, yeah. but, i do understand why someone would do it. 2 of my guildes are going on their 60th runs for items (a torc, and madstones) and to be honest, if i was in their shoes, i would at least think about trying to buying them. is it crappy, yeah. when you have invested that much time into getting that item though,, i cant say i really blame them

And I understand this, some people will just have bad luck. Just stick with it and pug it out, or run with friends and guildies. And above all else, don't exclued people on the basis of improving your chance at loot.
My bauble took an on and off two months of ransacking amrath, but I had fun and pulled alot of boot ings too.

[Kmnh]

I hate agreeing with mystera, but your loot is your loot. Once it has dropped under your name, you can do whatever you please with it. Loot it, auction it, pass to a guildie, I don't care, it doesn't belong to me.

Offering to buy loot is the perfect way to be excluded from the roll, though. Sorry, I don't need your large scale, and the community doesn't need another greedy bastard

[Aaxeyu]

Offering to buy loot is the perfect way to be excluded from the roll, though. Sorry, I don't need your large scale, and the community doesn't need another greedy bastard

How exactly are you greedy for giving someone something in return for the loot they pulled instead of insisting that they should give it away for no compensation?

[Kmnh]

It is my loot, I get to exclude people from rolls under any reason that crosses my mind.

Try to buy my loot and you don't get to roll on it. Fair is fair.

[Eladiun]

Bravo OP +1

[Alex301]

When you join your average raid you assume looting will the follow the same unwritten rules that most people follow, i.e. what you don't want or need goes up for roll. I don't agree with people trying to sell or buy items in these runs. People have spent their time doing the raid because they expect raid loot to go up for roll if it is unwanted and they will have to wait 3 days to run it again.

I don't mind LFMs from people asking you not to join if you're also after the same item because you know what to expect and you can simple not join if you don't agree.

At the end of the day it is your loot and you can do what you want with it, just don't expect others to agree.

[Alizar]

How exactly are you greedy for giving someone something in return for the loot they pulled instead of insisting that they should give it away for no compensation?

The saying "What goes around comes around." comes to mind. If people break away from putting items up for roll they don't need then we hinder this effect. This also brings to mind the saying "Need before greed". If you don't need it then please put it up for roll to give everyone a chance at said item.

[zebidos]

In the end its up to the person who got the raid loot to what they want to do with it, if it is just a normal pug it is up to the person who got it wheter to put it for roll or sell or keep.

Madstone boots are overated IMO though, was so happy when I got them for my barbarian, but now find that I only use them just before boss fights or while in parties as madstone rage stops me from using heal scrolls or resurecting my hireling cleric (oh im a halfling 2 rogue 16 barb so have full UMD) as I just cant dismiss rage, use a scroll or whatever then rage up again.

And what is this about reavers fate being a "team effort" cmon, seriously.

[Alizar]

Would be nice if the devs made it so you either take it or put it up for roll to end this debate.

[Aaxeyu]

The saying "What goes around comes around." comes to mind. If people break away from putting items up for roll they don't need then we hinder this effect. This also brings to mind the saying "Need before greed". If you don't need it then please put it up for roll to give everyone a chance at said item.

I'm not talking about selling loot, I'm talking about buying.